Sliding Table Saw

[Mark Woodmark]

Hi all. I am new to this forum. I am thinking of replacing my Unisaw with a sliding table saw. In addition to ripping and dadoing, I would like to crosscut wider, longer boards more easily. I would also like to have something with the accuracy and ease of setup that my Incra miter gauge provides me. Below are the saws I am looking at. Any input or experience is much appreciated.

http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws/tablesaw-pro
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_bs.tpl&product_id=220&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=35
http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Sliding-Tablesaw-with-Scoring/G0700
http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/panel-saw-k-500.html

[Mark Bolton]

Mark,
Searching sliders and panel saws on this forum should yield hours and hours of reading. There have even been several recent threads regarding sliders vs. cabinet saw, ripping on a slider, and so on.

I am not sure as to what informaton you will find with regards to specific models but there is buku's of info here regarding sliders.

Mark

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Safety wise, Sliders and riving knives are the best additions you can make to a saw. Active Safety.
Though the Saw Stop is one great saw, I'm not that afraid of cutting a finger. I'm more afraid of kickback.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Welcome Mark! Like the other Mark said, there are a lot of threads here on practically every aspect of a slider. Quite a few of us own them too. Have fun!

[Steve Rowe]

Mark,
Of the 4 you have listed, I have experience with the Felder but in the 700 series and not the 500 series. Both of these have the X-roll system which is excellent IMO. I had my slider set up with the Felder short fence similar to that shown in the Felder you are interested in. For square cuts, there is a stop that is accurate and user adjustable. For angle cuts, I wasn't satisfied with accuracy of the scale. The problem was that the scale was stuck to the table and not adjustable. That was on a 2004 model machine so check with Felder on whether they have corrected this weakness.

The Minimax is the only one of the 4 with an outrigger and support arm. Because of this, it will support longer workpieces. Extension tables or other supports are probably available or included with the other offerings. I have a Minimax shaper with sliding table and outrigger which may be the same as on the saw. While it operates smoothly, I don't think it is as nice as the Felder X-roll. Based on machines I have owned, the Felder table and fence extrusions are nicer and more stout than those on the Minimax. The outrigger table on the Felder is also easier to install/remove than on the MM. The Felder is just a bit nicer and probably pricier.

You need to be aware of the marketing ploy that MM takes when stating their motor horsepower ratings. They inflate them by 20% due to the 50Hz vs. 60Hz frequency change between Europe and North America. MM seems unique in doing this and I am not convinced it is proper but, that is best left for electrical engineers to argue. My point is that Felder does not do the inflation, so the 4.0hp rating on the Felder is the same as the 4.8hp rating on the MM.

With the Laguna, this is likely a ZMM Stomana Bulgarian made machine. I have owned 2 of the Laguna machines made by this company. They are fully functional but don't seem to be as refined as the Minimax (Italian) and Felder (Austrian) offerings. Unless Laguna has changed, their machines will have American made Baldor motors.

With the Grizzly, my experience is not with their saws nor is it based on recent model machines. My experience with them leaves me less than objective, so I will keep my opinion to myself on this one.

Be aware that with the Felder, you will need a different bore on your blades than with the MM and Laguna. It will have a 30mm bore with 2 pin-holes. I have had blades rebored by Forrest and it cost about $22 per blade.

There are fairly active groups for Felder and Minimax on Yahoo Groups which may be helpful. I do recommend joining these groups and probing for specifics on those machines.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Mark Bolton]

With the Laguna, this is likely a ZMM Stomana Bulgarian made machine. I have owned 2 of the Laguna machines made by this company. They are fully functional but don't seem to be as refined as the Minimax (Italian) and Felder (Austrian) offerings. Unless Laguna has changed, their machines will have American made Baldor motors.
Steve

While I dont want to sound cryptic here, I dont want to get in to the details as I am waiting for a long process to be finalized, but I can tell you with almost one hundred percent certainty that the Laguna machine in the link is Chinese. There first generation was clearly from the same manufacturer supplying Grizzly. I would assume of course they are manufacturing for them under their own (Laguna's) specifications but I would be 99.999% sure that the machine in Mark's link is Chinese.

As best I can tell only their combo machines are Bulgarian.

Mark

[keith micinski]

In the Laguna pictures it looks like there is a small blade facing the wrong way just in front of the regulator blade. What the hell is it?

[Mark Bolton]

In the Laguna pictures it looks like there is a small blade facing the wrong way just in front of the regulator blade. What the hell is it?

Its a scoring blade. It is a small blade that cuts a kerf slightly wider than the main blade. This blade is used when cutting materials where you want to eliminate tearout/chipping on the underside.

Mark

[John A langley]

I have the mini-max315 and love it. The customer service is good too. The 315 is a little larger model than the one you are looking at. If you have the room and can come up with another 4 or 5 grand I see the 8 ft slider being worth the extra money. I never used a
Feidler but have looked at them and was impressed with them. I've seen the Grizzley that you are looking at in Springfield, and thought it was a little weak. But if it is for hobby use and dollars are important, than it would probably do you well. flat stay away from Laguna Tools period.

[keith micinski]

Its a scoring blade. It is a small blade that cuts a kerf slightly wider than the main blade. This blade is used when cutting materials where you want to eliminate tearout/chipping on the underside.

Mark

Got ya, that seems a little extreme to me. Whats wrong with a zero clearance insert and also if it is wider then the blade that would mean you couldn't use the bottom face to show so who would care about tearout then anyway?

[Mark Woodmark]

Thanks to all for the input. Yes Steve the Felder is a couple thousand more than the MiniMax. Interesting to here about the Laguna. I have 3 other tools that are Grizzly and feel they are a good value. If I had the funds and the space, I think I would get an Altendorf. I have seen one in town here at a cabinet shop and have talked to a handful of people who swear by them. Once again, thanks

[Mark Bolton]

Got ya, that seems a little extreme to me. Whats wrong with a zero clearance insert and also if it is wider then the blade that would mean you couldn't use the bottom face to show so who would care about tearout then anyway?

The scoring blade is only a few thousandths wider than the main blade. Its not like it cuts a kerf so wide that it leaves a rabbet on the material. A ZCI is a good option however you can still have issues.

What you have to remember is that these saws are most common in production shops that break down large quantities of sheet goods daily. Some of the larger sliders will often see stacks of ply loaded on them 4, 6, 8, sheets or more at a time and all broken down at once.

While this may not be the case for smaller shops or hobby use, the features built in to these saws for the commercial market carry over.

Mark

[Steve Rowe]

While I dont want to sound cryptic here, I dont want to get in to the details as I am waiting for a long process to be finalized, but I can tell you with almost one hundred percent certainty that the Laguna machine in the link is Chinese. There first generation was clearly from the same manufacturer supplying Grizzly. I would assume of course they are manufacturing for them under their own (Laguna's) specifications but I would be 99.999% sure that the machine in Mark's link is Chinese.

As best I can tell only their combo machines are Bulgarian.

Mark

I have the LMB200 slot mortiser and it is Bulgarian and I previously had, but sold the Pinnacle lathe which was also Bulgarian. On that saw, I really don't know where it is made. What I do know is that the handles are identical to the handles I have/had on the Bulgarian made machines. Based on what I have in my shop, my 99.999% would go the other way but neither one of us knows for sure.:D
Steve

[Mark Bolton]

Based on what I have in my shop, my 99.999% would go the other way but neither one of us knows for sure.:D
Steve

Based on something I have in my shop, I think I would be willing to wager you perhaps a one hundred dollar bill, or a beer, your choice,.... ;)

Mark

[Steve Rowe]

Got ya, that seems a little extreme to me. Whats wrong with a zero clearance insert and also if it is wider then the blade that would mean you couldn't use the bottom face to show so who would care about tearout then anyway?

When building frameless cabinets, this becomes important because there are instances when both sides of the sheet goods are visible. Melamine is very prone to chipout even with a very sharp blade and a zero clearance insert. With the scoring blade you get perfect cuts on both sides every time.

[Steve Rowe]

Based on something I have in my shop, I think I would be willing to wager you perhaps a one hundred dollar bill, or a beer, your choice,.... ;)

Mark
I am sure that either way, a hundred dollar bill would almost buy a beer by the time the current congress and administration gets finished. :(

You may very well be correct given the Pro series but, this is my basis:

Has anyone else noticed that there are different handles on the pictures for the same saw.

[Glen Butler]

When building frameless cabinets, this becomes important because there are instances when both sides of the sheet goods are visible. Melamine is very prone to chipout even with a very sharp blade and a zero clearance insert. With the scoring blade you get perfect cuts on both sides every time.

Most companies regularly working with melamine use a CNC router, which allows them to cut out parts and drill holes for hardware all at once it is also linked to their cad program which plans all the pieces and sheets for maximum usage. I get cleaner cuts on melamine than I have seen many fully equipped cabinet companies produce using their pricey CNC machines. I use the Tenryu Mel-Pro. Works as advertised.

[Mark Bolton]

I am sure that either way, a hundred dollar bill would almost buy a beer by the time the current congress and administration gets finished. :(

You may very well be correct given the Pro series but, this is my basis:

Has anyone else noticed that there are different handles on the pictures for the same saw.

While this is a shaper

http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-HP-Professional-Tilting-Spindle-Shaper-Z-Series/G5913Z

It has virtually the same handle. That said, I dont think the handles are really an indicator of the country of origin. Your tool name plate makes it clear.

What I DO know, is that when I was setting up our current shop Laguna sent me images and pricing on a "new" tilting arbor shaper they were getting ready to unveil. Upon looking at the images something struck me. While I dont own any Grizzly equipment, or frequent the site, something clicked. Going to the Grizzly site there sat the identical shaper, to the "T". Inside and out, raising/tilt mechanism, switches, knobs, decals, everything. I even downloaded the Grizzly manual to see the innerds.

When I questioned this there was some apology and it was stated that the grizzly price could easily be met.

I dont like to make assumptions and this is just a WAG, but I have wondered if perhaps Laguna was/is trying to make a more concerted foray into the consumer market (platinum line) and is chasing the grizzly/wal-mart model rather than the Robland/Felder/MM/SCM route.

This isnt to say that they dont have some great stuff.

Mark

[Steve Rowe]

I dont like to make assumptions and this is just a WAG, but I have wondered if perhaps Laguna was/is trying to make a more concerted foray into the consumer market (platinum line) and is chasing the grizzly/wal-mart model rather than the Robland/Felder/MM/SCM route.

It is ironic that Grizzly seems to be having some machines made in Europe while Laguna seems to be expanding with offerings made in Asia. This has been a significant shift for both companies based on their past practices. My guess is that this is either aimed at growth or just simple survival.
Steve

[Mike Wilkins]

Hello Mark. I have the Laguna Pro 6' Sliding Tablesaw. Been using it since Feb. 2009. Mine is the next larger size with the 6' sliding table. I got it to replace a 1964 Rockwell/Unisaw, and have no regrets. For the size of my 16
by 24 foot shop, this size fits well. And I believe it is made in China. But for a machine that weighs over 1000 pounds, it is built well. I had a a small alignment problem with the rip fence, but corrected it myself with a drill bit and file. Going from a standard cabinet saw to a slider is still taking some getting used to, but the learning curve has been fun.
I plan to put a full review on the forum soon.

[Mike Heidrick]

The Laguna TSS saws are Stomana/Hickmann Bulgarian made with Baldor motors added for the NA market.

[Mark Bolton]

The Laguna TSS saws are Stomana/Hickmann Bulgarian made with Baldor motors added for the NA market.

Thats only the TSS, not the PRO series, just for clarification.

Mark

[Rye Crane]

Hi Mark,

I second Steve Rowe's comments on our shrinking dollars and also agree with his opinions on his tools. The Felder is a very nice machine, it looks great, operates as advertised and will provide you with a safe, easy to operate, beautiful preformance in your woodworking. The reason I went with a euro saw/shaper combo is the safety. Riving knives, crosscut platforms so you can stand several feet from the spinning steel, dust collection that is effective.

I evaluated the market offerings and decided to work with MiniMax. I own a ST5 Elite S which is comparable to the Felder KF700 series. I am not sure what Steve is saying about the horsepower ratings on MIniMax electrics. Mine show a 6.6 hp at 60Hz. They are powerful and work just fine. I also have MiniMax's FS2 which is similar to the Felder AD51 jointer planer. The FS2 is 520mm wide vs. the AD51 510mm wide. The pricipal difference is the positioning of the fence with a middle support so you cannot really get the machine right up against a wall and use it's full reach. But with 20.5 " you can make due most of the time without moving the machine.

I am very pleased with my machinery and would buy the same units again faced with the same choices that I had two years ago.

Best of luck to you Mark, you cannot go wrong with this type of saw, you will have to change the way you work. You will make you jigs so that they are either fixed on the slider and you pass the jig through the saw or you can have your table fixed (stopped) and make the jig pass the saw with the jig's runner located in the sliders slot. It any case it's a much safer work style.

Rye Crane
Pittsburg, Ca.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Mark,

I am not sure what Steve is saying about the horsepower ratings on MIniMax electrics. Mine show a 6.6 hp at 60Hz. They are powerful and work just fine.

Rye Crane
Pittsburg, Ca.

Rye, what Steve is saying is both Minimax and Felder use 50 hz motors. When ran on 60 hz, that is a 20% increase. Minimax adds that 20% to their HP ratings. Your machine has a 5.5 hp motor.

Felder doesn't add 20% to their ratings. I'm not saying one is right or wrong but for comparison's sake, the Felder 4 hp is the same as Minimax's 4.8 hp.

Hope this helps

[Jim Becker]

I own and use a MiniMax S315 WS slider and love it. And outside of the tack trunks I've been building lately, most of my work is with solid stock, not sheet goods. Of the manufacturers in your list, Felder and MiniMax are higher end products and brands that many folks automatically associate with the type of machine you are considering purchase.

[Joe Jensen]

I am brand new to the slider saw club. I've been doing woodworking for almost 40 years, since I was 8 years old. Since college I've been using Powermatic and Delta cabinet shop tools. About 3 years ago I upgraded from my 1990 PM66 to a SawStop Industrial saw, I have enough experience to see and appreciate quality. About a year ago I bought a 1970s SCMI jointer and rehab'd it. WOW, the opened my eyes to the precision and quality of commerical Euro tools. Last October I ordered a Felder KF700SP combo saw/shaper. Just took delivery a couple of weeks ago. WOW again. What a fantastically well designed and built tool. The Felder (and SCMI) makes a cabinet saw look like a crude pickup truck with a MAACO paint job and chrome rims.

I've just finished setting it up and adjusting it and like the SCMI jointer, it is in a completely different league. If you are buying, here are the two most critical pieces of advice I got over and over.
1) buy a slider that is long enough to cut a 8ft sheet of plywood with enough extra length for clamps on each end
2) buy with all the options you want the first time. Apparently the used machines are mostly from folks who didn't get what the really wanted the first time, and who were reselling for a big loss to get a the machine they really want.
So, I ended up ordering the Felder with a 9ft slider, variable speed motors, and power raise/lower with digital readouts. Now that I have it I'm happy I did.

[Mark Woodmark]

Wanted to add a couple to the list. Anyone have any experience and input about these two sliders?

http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/pk250a.php

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-basic.html

[John Harden]

Wanted to add a couple to the list. Anyone have any experience and input about these two sliders?

http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/pk250a.php

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-basic.html

Not with the Rojek, but I've looked over the Hammer up close. Hammer is what you might call the "home shop" version of Felder. Still, very nice and I'd recommend it highly.

In reply to the OP, if he is interested in a slider, I'd recommend he focus on MM and Felder/Hammer if they are in his price range.

I've had my Felder KF700SP Saw/Shaper and AD741 Jointer/Planer about 4 months now and are very happy with them. Huge step up over my old cabinet saw and 15" stationary planer.

I also agree with Joe about researching your options carefully. If you go MM or Felder, these are not inexpensive machines. Do it once and never look back. Like Joe, I got VS motors, electric height adjustment, 9 foot slider, etc.

If your budget won't allow MM or Felder, I'd recommend looking at the Grizzly offerings. I'd be inclined to have more faith in their ability to service you down the road than some of their competitors in the low cost slider market.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Regards,

John

[Steve Rowe]

Wanted to add a couple to the list. Anyone have any experience and input about these two sliders?

http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/pk250a.php

http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/products/format-table-saws/sliding-table-saw-k3-basic.html

I have looked over but not used either of these machines.

Techmark is about 75 miles from me and sells industrial machinery in addition to the Rojek line. The Rojek is a Czech made machine and seems to not quite have the refinements of the Felder and MM but seems fully functional.

On the Hammer, John is correct. I don't believe it has the Felder X-roll slider and if it is important to you, I would check with Felder to verify.

[Mark Woodmark]

If I had to choose today it would be between the Rojek and the Hammer, tipping towards the Rojek. Price is a little better and I could use my existing blades without having to modify them. Maybe thats not good reasoning, but its all I have at this point. Hammer salesman claims I can get my blades drilled at any machine shop for 25 to 35 cents each.....Im sure thats true. I have been trying to get Felder/Hammer to send me thier catolog for the past month. Havent seen it yet. Maybe they really dont want my business. I would love to have the Felder, but it is $3000.00 more than most of the others its capacity. I have a hard time believing it is $3000.00 better and at 54 years old I dont really need something that will last 100 years like the salesman claims. Rojek salesman claims their saw is made in Austria. Also the Hammer does not have the X-Roll slider table.....I am still researching Sliders. Even inquired about a Kufo slider (No thats not a drink). No dado capacity which is something I really want. I emailed Laguna with questions about their Pro slider. No answer to my questions, but I am getting junk email from them.

[Mike Wilkins]

Mark, the Laguna Pro sliders will take a dado set-up, and uses a 5/8" arbor. I use both 10" and 12" blades, using a bushing for the 12" blades with a 1" arbor hole. The TSS and Pro series line of sliders are not toys, using a lot of cast iron and thick guage metal for the bodies. I am not a salesman for the Laguna firm, just a satisfied customer with 2 of their machines and others in the waiting. Would I love a Felder with electronic raises/tilt and other nice options? Heck yeah. But the real world and its budget limitations is waiting.
I suggest you check out as many machines in person first before making a final decision. Machines in this realm are long-haul tools, so choose wisely.

[Mike Heidrick]

If I was looking to drop 12-20K I would take a trip to the 2010 IWF in Atlanta this summer. Not only the best place to lay hands on large machines but a great place to deal on conference machines.

[Rod Sheridan]

. Price is a little better and I could use my existing blades without having to modify them. Maybe thats not good reasoning, but its all I have at this point. Hammer salesman claims I can get my blades drilled at any machine shop for 25 to 35 cents each.....Im sure thats true..

Hi Mark, it cost me $12.71 to bore the blade to 30mm, and $3.56 X 2 to bore the two drive pin holes in the saw blades.

That included inspection and tensioning/flattening if required.

I kept a couple of blades, as well as purchased a couple of new blades, since I didn't have any 12" blades to start with.

Regards, Rod.

[Mark Woodmark]

Once again thanks to all for the great advice. I will keep researching for a while yet before I decide