Waterboune Finishes?

[Doug Hobkirk]

I think I understand what a waterborne finish is and then I read a post that undermines my comprehension. I do understand they will become more prevalent, probably in the new future. Would someone please explain:


what a waterborne finish is and
what is/are the best for woodworkers.

Thanks

[Howard Acheson]

A waterborne finish is any finish that contains water as a significant component and where the clean up is with water.

What's "best" is up to the requirements of the project. Waterborne finishes have different characteristics from oil based or solvent based finishes. Each have pluses and minuses.

In general waterborne finishes have less VOC (fumes) and odor at the expense--to a varying degree--of color, durability and chemical resistance.

Oil based and chemical solvent finishes are high in VOC's--manufacturers are working to reduce the VOC's but some finishes are regulated or banned is certain states and localities--but they continue to be more durable and chemical resistant.

More and more finishers and large furniture and cabinet makers are changing to waterborne finishes.

[Brad Wood]

timely post as I am looking to venture into the lacquer world. Since I have never done any lacquer work, does it make sense I that I just get started down the "new world" path?

I've read through the lacquer section of Flexner's book, without it in front of me right now, I don't recall that he really elaborates too much on water based lacquer... can you elaborate on the drawbacks you mention a bit more?

In my case I was planning on using lacquer on a set of mud room cabinets I am getting ready to start on... basically to match our current kitchen cabinets (close match at least, not looking for exact replica).... so, in general, is water based lacquer for kitchen cabinets considered acceptable? Is there one brand over another that is better when it comes to the color issue? (what is the color issue?)

Are there hobbyist versions of the water based lacquer? ... as in, I'm not a pro and really don't want to spent $30/qt for this stuff version?

Hopefully I'm not hijacking this thread, I think it is all relative to the OP.

thanks

[Jim Becker]

Brad, water borne "lacquer" is generally an acrylic that's been formulated to have some of the desirable characteristics of a solvent-based lacquer, such as "burn in". But it's a very different product than the solvent-based finish. Target Coatings EM6000 is a good example of that...and it's worth every penny of the $30-35 it costs for a gallon, depending on the promotion du jour. (Currently 10% off with an email coupon code)

From the standpoint of color, the EM6000, which is pretty much the only finish I use in addition to shellac, doesn't really add any color. So I generally use BLO and dewaxed shellac to warm up the wood and pop figure before proceeding to the water borne finish.

[Doug Hobkirk]

Brad, water borne "lacquer" ...is a very different product than the solvent-based finish. Target Coatings EM6000 is a good example of that...and it's worth every penny...
Jim -

What are those special characteristics? Your endorsement carries weight, I am really curious.


...From the standpoint of color, the EM6000, which is pretty much the only finish I use in addition to shellac, doesn't really add any color. So I generally use BLO and dewaxed shellac to warm up the wood and pop figure before proceeding to the water borne finish.

I don't understand the point about color. Thank you.

[Howard Acheson]

Most waterborne finishes are water clear. They do not have the inherent amber coloring of an oil based finish. For this reason when they are applied to a wood, they do not "warm" up the appearence the way an oil based finish will. It's the amber color in linseed oil or shellac that "pops" the figure in wood. Waterborne finishes tend to look a little washed out or "blah".

For this reason, a couple of waterborne finish manufacturers will add an amber dye to their product. This mimics the coloring of an oil based finish and provides a warmer look to the wood. A finisher could do the same thing to any waterborne finish. Or, one could first apply a coat of shellac and/or boiled linseed oil and then apply the waterborne.

Waterborne finishes are a new and evolving technology. Each manufacturer is doing different things. Therefore you can expect that different manufacturer's product will handle and look different. It's best to settle on one product, become familier with it and then stay with it. That way you will get consistant results and not be vexed or surprised at how things come out on a job. Always learn and test a new finish or finishing system of scrap wood from your project. No tears.

[Jim Becker]

Doug, the EM6000 is formulated with the "burn in" characteristic of lacquer...each coat becomes one with the previous, just like NC lacquer (and shellac) does. It also goes on really nicely and is quite forgiving. It lays down wonderfully and allows for quick re-coating. Oh, in my experience, it's quite durable. The PSL (two generations back) that I did my kitchen in back in 2003 is just now starting to show some wear and that's largely because I have to girls who don't give a you-know-what about smacking things into cabinets as they walk by. I don't believe that any other finish I could have safely used would have performed any better, honestly.

[Doug Hobkirk]

Doug, the EM6000 is formulated with the "burn in" characteristic of lacquer...each coat becomes one with the previous, just like NC lacquer (and shellac) does. It also goes on really nicely and is quite forgiving. It lays down wonderfully and allows for quick re-coating. Oh, in my experience, it's quite durable. The PSL (two generations back) that I did my kitchen in back in 2003 is just now starting to show some wear and that's largely because I have to girls who don't give a you-know-what about smacking things into cabinets as they walk by. I don't believe that any other finish I could have safely used would have performed any better, honestly.
Jim - I have more questions, natually -


Does the EM6000 go on nicely and be forgiving like shellac? Better or worse?
How long between coats? (I didn't find any technical info on the Target Coatings EM6000 web site).
How many coats?
Do you typically need to sand after a certain number of coats?
Where do you buy it? From Target Coatings directly? I didn't get any hits on Google shopping.

[Roger Jensen]

Hi Doug,

I have been very happy with Target's products. I'm using the 8000 CV for my cherry kitchen cabinets (over their clear stain and WB shellac).

I'm sure folks will answer your questions here, but it is also worth a visit to the users' forum on the Target Coatings web site. Your questions and many others have been posted and answered there. Target Coatings president, Jeff Weiss, is very active on the board and will get to all questions within a day or two. That is where I found my finishing schedule for cherry.

They are running a promotion this month to bring the total discount to 30% off of SRP. You can use promotion code FBR10.

To answer one of your questions, I think it is easier to apply than shellac top coats, which I find a bit tricky when working with 2-3 lb cuts. Perhaps you are spraying shellac, which I have not tried. I was wiping/brushing the shellac.

Roger

[Jamie Buxton]

How long between coats? (I didn't find any technical info on the Target Coatings EM6000 web site).

I spray EM6000 or EM8000 with an HVLP. It generally is dry enough to recoat in five-ten minutes.

How many coats?

I generally use three coats. I might use four on kitchen cabinets.

Do you typically need to sand after a certain number of coats?

Yes. The finish does raise the grain. I spray two coats, then skitter-sand with 600 or 800 grit. By skitter-sanding, I mean just lightly sanding -- just a few swipes. You can do it by hand. It is amazing how much the feel of the surface changes with that light sanding. I think I'm knocking down little wood fibers. Then I spray the final coat.

Where do you buy it? From Target Coatings directly? I didn't get any hits on Google shopping.

I buy from Target. Homestead Finishing is another source.

[Jim Tobias]

Doug,
I have been using the Target products (as a hobbyist, not production work) for over a year and have found that they are very easy to use. I will say that they have a variety of products (poly, lacquer, stain base(similar to BLO coloring) and it will take some practice and trial and error to "get to know them". But , as Howard said, if you stick with one product and figure it out, you can get good results. I would think that this is true on most brands of reputable products.

Jim

[Brad Wood]

While this was Doug's thread, I'm going to jump in and say thanks to everyone for the information. It sounds like the Target products are a real good starting point for someone new to the lacquer world.

[Jim Becker]

It sounds like the Target products are a real good starting point for someone new to the lacquer world.

As long as you understand it's not "lacquer"...but I absolutely agree that the Target products are easy to use and provide attractive...and safe...results for folks who want to spray in a home and/or small shop environment without an expensive spray booth and special protective gear.

[Brad Wood]

As long as you understand it's not "lacquer"...but I absolutely agree that the Target products are easy to use and provide attractive...and safe...results for folks who want to spray in a home and/or small shop environment without an expensive spray booth and special protective gear.

Well, I guess I really don't care what I use (lacquer, shellac, varnish, mystery "not lacquer" lacquer, etc)....
You hit on some keys words in this sentence...

"easy to use" "attractive" "safe" "home ... shop environment"

Gee whiz Jim, do you work for these guys? They ought to pay you endorsement fees.I'm sold.Thanks

[Jim Becker]

No, I don't work for them...and they hit my AMEX soundly every time I order some finish. LOL I have met "the boss", however, and have a lot of respect for the research and work he puts into these finishes to make them the best they can be.