From Log to Lumber - Neander style

[Matt Sauber]

Ok, I've searched for this but haven't found much - perhaps because I might be crazy for wanting to do this.

I have a nice log of black walnut that is laying down in some woods next to my house. It's about 8-10 ft long and 18in diameter. It's straight with no branches.

My question is: what is the best way to get this thing sawn into 4/4 plainsawn planks for making some furniture? The kicker is I want to do this all by hand. I'm not afraid of hard work and realize that is what it is going to take. I just want to know the proper way of going about this project.

Thanks!

[Ed Griner]

First dig a five foot deep pit,acquire a large rip saw and a sawing partner.Just kidding. I would contact a local Woodmizer rep.
Good Luck/Ed

[Matt Hankins]

First dig a five foot deep pit,acquire a large rip saw and a sawing partner.Just kidding.

What Ed said, but not kidding. Start by getting yourself a broad axe and hew some flat faces, then grab your buddy and your pitsaw and go to town! You shouldn't need to hew your log perfectly square. Some wane won't hurt. Just give yourself some flat surfaces for reference.

Matt

[John Eaton]

How about splitting first then working down the splits to usable widths?

-- John

[David Keller NC]

My question is: what is the best way to get this thing sawn into 4/4 plainsawn planks for making some furniture? The kicker is I want to do this all by hand. I'm not afraid of hard work and realize that is what it is going to take. I just want to know the proper way of going about this project.


The simple (simplistic) answer is that you can't do this without power. The reason is that as other posters have mentioned, a rip-filed pit saw is necessary to get plain-sawn boards out of a log, and it's very unlikely you're going to find a pit saw. You can have one custom made by someone like Wenzlof & Sons, but it's going to really cost and you'll have to wait quite a long time for it. You -might- stumble into one of these at an MWTCA event or tool auction, but you'll be lucky if you do, and whether it will be in usable shape instead of just a wall decoration is iffy.

The next best thing is as Matt Sauber noted - you can buy a few wedges and split the log lengthwise into bolts, then plane these square and true. However, the result will be quarter-sawn wood of perhaps 7" wide at the maximum.

If you decide to give on the "no power" aspect, then you've a lot of options - you can contract with someone that has a Woodmizer bandsaw mill, you can buy a large chainsaw and a chainsaw board-cutting jig from Granberg International, or you can buy a portable band-saw run by a chainsaw motor (they're called "Rip-Saw")

[Mark Roderick]

I'm not on expert on milling wood from a log, but I think you should take care with the drying process here. If you mill 4x4 boards initially, I have a feeling that once the wood dries and moves around a bit, you're not going to be able to salvage a 4x4 board. I'd think you would have to mill a board at least 6/4 to end up with long pieces that are 4x4. Calling on the experts here, is that correct, or if you stack and dry it correctly will everything stay straight?

[Jerome Bias]

From what I hear Black walnut rives really well. And I have seen a bit of late 17th century stuff that used the stuff. It looked great. From what I understand working the rived stuff is nicer than working quarter sawn wood. I have been look for a butt of a log that a saw yard was afraid to touch, because of nails and such to rive.

Good luck.

Jerome

NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.



How about splitting first then working down the splits to usable widths?

-- John

[Matt Sauber]

So is a pit saw the only option for hand work?

What about a big 'ol frame saw? Could I cut this into 4'-5' lengths, hew it square-ish, prop it up on some saw horses and saw it up with a wide frame saw?

[Pam Niedermayer]

So is a pit saw the only option for hand work?

What about a big 'ol frame saw? Could I cut this into 4'-5' lengths, hew it square-ish, prop it up on some saw horses and saw it up with a wide frame saw?

No, a pit saw isn't the only hand work option. The much better option of riving is there, far superior, involving only an axe/sledge and wedges. See riving method, skip past shaving horse stuff (http://haandkraft.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-shaving-horse-and-riving-wood.html).

A frame saw? Nah, way too much work.

Pam

[Steve Friedman]

I wouldn't discount the riving knife (froe) idea.

http://www.countryworkshops.org/froes.html

[Jared McMahon]

I can't find it at the moment, but there's a YouTube clip floating around of a Japanese village and a guy going to town on a log with a maebiki, a big PacMan-looking saw. Hope it's not taboo to link to other forums, but here's some pertinent info:

http://www.japanesetools.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5&start=15

It might be one way to avoid digging a pit, but you still might need some extra hands.

And definitely let us know if you manage to find a way to do it without either using electricity or giving yourself a heart attack. :D


EDIT: Need to clarify the URL. Most of that thread is unrelated, the maebiki info and pics start near the bottom of that page.

[David Keller NC]

So is a pit saw the only option for hand work?

What about a big 'ol frame saw? Could I cut this into 4'-5' lengths, hew it square-ish, prop it up on some saw horses and saw it up with a wide frame saw?

The specific answer to your question is "it depends". Most certainly workmen in the 18th century used 2-man frame saws to slice a fairly small piece of wood lengthwise into veneer. But for what we would typically think of as "lumber" - yeah, the pit saw was the method of choice.

Regarding a frame saw, though - you can probably get this to work on a piece of log about 4 feet long, but it will be necessary to have a 2nd person helping you - guiding a frame saw down a line with the grain's very difficult without someone on the other side of the log to steer.

[paul cottingham]

Read up Roy Underhill.

[harry strasil]

Matt, its not necessary to dig a pit, you can make some real tall saw horses and use a frame saw, it takes 2 people one on top and one on the bottom with a big hat on. and a couple of planks on the sides for the top person to stand on, You mark the log with a chalk line for the sawing lines. And I have a 5 ft frame saw I made you can borrow.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/neandersawmill1.jpg

It also takes a couple of log dogs to hold the log steady while you saw.

[harry strasil]

from Diderot Vol 2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawing.jpg

[Larry Marshall]

Matt, I'd suggest you read stuff written by someone who actually does this regularly. Head over to Peter Follansbee's blog and wander through the stuff he's written about 17th Century woodworking. You might also pose your question to him. Peter's a really nice guy and very well-versed in creating wood from trees :-)

http://www.peterfollansbee.com/

Cheers --- Larry

[Tom Wiarda]

More than 30 years ago I lived in Bangladesh for 2 years working with a mission project. Part of my work was overseeing the construction of a hospital and other buildings. Most of the construction was concrete and masonry (all done by hand) but I hired a crew of Manipuri tribal carpenters to build doors and windows and other furniture. The teak logs were cut with crosscut saws in the jungle nearby and elephants were used to drag the logs to the road. The logs were manhandled up onto elevated frames and cut into planks with a 2-man pit saw. Then the carpenters used rudimentary planes, handsaws and chisels to make door and window frames, panel doors and shutters and nice furniture from the rough sawn planks. All this was done barefooted by the way. No power tools used. It was they only way they knew how to do it. I didn't appreciate the skill involved then as much as I do looking back on it now. I will see if I can find some pictures. Tom

[harry strasil]

I helped outfit a local boy who became a minister and went to some Island in the south pacific for his calling, I ended up teaching him how to use the WWing and Smithing tools so he could teach some of the tribesmen in the village where his missionary was.

[Harlan Barnhart]

... I will see if I can find some pictures. TomI would really like to see some pictures of that Tom, it sounds amazing.

[Darnell Hagen]

That's a great picture, Harry.

I like the OHSA officer giving the workman heck for the loose mallet head.

[harry strasil]

More than likely the Yard Foreman, an OSHA inspector in those days would have a life expectancy about like that of Machine Gunner in WW2.

What Fascinates me is the configuration of the Twibil the fella is using on the end joint. It eventually evolved into what we now know as a Slick.

[Darnell Hagen]

Ya, I hadn't noticed that.

I'm guessing the long handle and the pistol grip would make for a long powerful cut, using your core muscles then the full stroke of your right arm rather than the short strokes used with a slick. Working stock on the ground would be far more comfortable, too.

[harry strasil]

You ever try wrangling timbers that big up on tresles? Believe me it ain't fun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/timberframedemo.jpg

Did you notice the timber cart to the left. I built a small one so I could handle large heavy pieces at my Blacksmith shop, the largest piece I moved by myself with it was a 1500 lb section of a trackhoe boom that was broke in half.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/helpers001.jpg

[Steve Branam]

I've just a acquired a maebiki-nokogiri from Japan. It's in good shape, just missing the handle. I got Odate's book "Japanese Woodworking Tools" and read through the saw section. I've also watched all the videos I can find on YouTube.

I sharpened it and tried it out on short sections of green applewood and eastern cedar by wrapping the handle tang in cloth. It works ok for a bit, then binds horribly. I've secured the logs in the leg vise of my Roubo bench, and I'm just dragging the bench around trying to cut.

Does anyone have any experience using these to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? I posted to the Japanese Woodworking Forum at http://www.shizutanischool.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2061&sid=60beb81cfe6ef6b78681f4edb82a9a8d, but have only gotten one reply.


Here's a picture of it:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/S_UYSfQhJ3I/AAAAAAAABm8/vhgi0EmW2O4/s400/Maebiki.JPG http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MK8R5_kOOBy08e5GSs4x0g?feat=directlink

And Harry, any hints on building one of those large frame saws? What did you use for the blade?

[george wilson]

Logs are pit sawn in Williamsburg nearly every day. I think it is going to be a big job making ready to do one yourself,though.A big pit to stand in,or a tall trestle to lay the logs on is needed. That log is going to be very heavy to get up on a trestle.

I recommend a frame saw like Harry's,because the usual type of pit saw is very hard to get these days. I think they were getting Garlick in England to custom make them. Everything Garlick makes is way too soft,and very roughly ground to suit me,though.

You might could buy a 6' length of 1095 spring steel,at least .042",or more like 1/16" X 4" wide,and file on about 2 teeth per inch. Then,the biggest problem would be to make parts to grasp the ends of the saw,and tension it very tightly.

All this for 1 log,though!!

I do not recommend trying to split the log. I'm sure the splits would wander enough to ruin your chances of getting any boards. Maybe for turning squares you could get away with splitting short pieces.

We had a veneer saw similar to Harry's frame saw in Williamsburg,and Marcus Hansen and I did hand saw some 1/8" rough veneer with it in the musical instrument maker movie,to line the interior of the spinet harpsichord. The veneer was hand planed to 1/16" after being sawn,which is the appropriate thickness for 18th.C. veneer. This veneer saw had a 4" wide,but very thin blade,with about 3 t.p.i.. It cut very well.

By a happy stroke of luck,the cabinet shop already had a veneer sawing vise as shown in Diderot,for holding shorter logs vertically for sawing by 2 men. Some earlier cabinet maker in Wmsbg. had made it.

[john brenton]

Work is great, work is noble, but I'd rather be the fancy-pants pointing his finger in the air.:cool:

To the OP, maybe taking smaller bites is the way to go. You're kind of taking on an overwhelming task.

You could easily cut off smaller logs, split then in quarters with hardwood splitting wedges (or a froe I guess if you have one), hew them enough to get them on the bench and saw the quarter grained pieces you need.


from Diderot Vol 2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/sawing.jpg

[David Keller NC]

I sharpened it and tried it out on short sections of green applewood and eastern cedar by wrapping the handle tang in cloth. It works ok for a bit, then binds horribly. I've secured the logs in the leg vise of my Roubo bench, and I'm just dragging the bench around trying to cut.

Does anyone have any experience using these to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? I posted to the Japanese Woodworking Forum at http://www.shizutanischool.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2061&sid=60beb81cfe6ef6b78681f4edb82a9a8d, but have only gotten one reply.


Here's a picture of it:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6qAGOXP58V0/S_UYSfQhJ3I/AAAAAAAABm8/vhgi0EmW2O4/s400/Maebiki.JPG http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MK8R5_kOOBy08e5GSs4x0g?feat=directlink

And Harry, any hints on building one of those large frame saws? What did you use for the blade?

Steve - my strong guess is that you've a saw that is improperly set. That is, the teeth are not bent out from the plane of the saw plate enough, or possibly bent out on one side more than the other, causing the saw to not track straight and then bind in the cut.

Generally speaking, re-setting a saw is a job for an experienced metate (saw sharpener) because you need to set it, then adjust the set so that the saw tracks well (i.e., it's an iterative process that requires some experience to know what's wrong and how to fix it).

However, you could try re-setting the saw yourself by the hammer & anvil method. In this case, the anvil is a block of hardwood, and the anvil is a low-weight hammer and a nail to be used as a punch. I believe that Bob Smalser and/or George wilson have written posts explaining this process in more detail.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I've got a bunch of maple logs from a tree I felled last summer. They range from four to eight feet. After looking at some of what Peter Follansbee and Roy Underhill have done, I decided to rive them. When the logs were fresh and wet, I found it almost impossible to get any purchase with the wedges unless the logs were very short. After developing some checks on the ends over the winter time however, they split relatively easily and I was able to split about 8-10 of these logs into quarters in about two hours' time.

Yes, some splits were more even than others. But as Follansbee says, it's what quarter sawn wood wishes it were.

I'm thinking I might plane one "flat" side of each quarter with a scrub-like plane and then do one of two things. 1.) Use a table saw to quarter-saw (you know, alternate perpendicular cuts rather than "radiating" quarter sawing) the rest of the quarter. Or, 2). Use a big old Disston crosscut saw I got at the flea market, and do the same thing. The human-powered version cuts surprisingly quickly, but this maple is seemingly made of iron, so I may resort to the table saw eventually.

Now some may say I'm doing this all wrong, and you can't let checking develop, but I looked into getting this quartersawn by a guy who comes to your lot, and it was ridiculous money. If it turns out that the wood is or has become unusable, it'll just turn into firewood for the neighbor and bits of project wood for the kids. The quarters are stacked up in perpendicular layers with a tarp over them right now. I'd be open to helpful suggestions, because I've got a bunch of red oak logs waiting for the same treatment.

[george wilson]

You will get some usable wood no doubt,but any knot,wave,or other irregularity will cause the splits to follow. It all depends upon what you want to make out of your split wood. No doubt,there will be considerable waste. Some woods split cleaner than others,and I don't think maple is one of them.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I've just a acquired a maebiki-nokogiri from Japan. It's in good shape, just missing the handle....

I bought a maebiki about 8 years ago, and was able to cut with it right out of the shipping box, both crosscut and rip. The weight of the saw holds it in place when dealing with big logs. I'd suggest making a handle for it, could make a big difference. Also, somehow check the metal at the teeth, as often the cutting steel will have worn away. Many of them have an obvious joinery line where soft and hard steels mate.

Pam

[harry strasil]

And Harry, any hints on building one of those large frame saws? What did you use for the blade?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=112404&highlight=veneer

[Ted Jay]

Matt,

When you get tired and decide to get ahold of someone with a Woodmizer, be prepared when he asked if it is an urban/yard tree.
As alot have nails, wire, barbed wire and who knows, some sawyers are reluctant to cut them unles you agree to pay for new blades if'n it finds some foreign objects and does damage.

Ted

[george wilson]

Yes,any trees that grew near a house are liable to have nearly anything up to horse shoes imbedded in them. I had to chainsaw a 3' dia. hickory log lengthwise. It had barbed wire in it,since as a young,small tree,it had been the corner post of a pasture!! That was no fun.