Purchasing shop vac for fine dust

[Joe Cowan]

I have decided to add another vac to my shop for the purpose of attaching to my ROS. Any opinions as to Fein or Festool and which models would be the best would be appreciated. I currently use a Makita ROS and do not use any vac at all.

[Michael Wildt]

Both brands you list are very very good. Things to consider when looking for a shop vac

- Noise
- The ability to adjust the suction (too much and the sander can stick to the material)
- Can it power the sander ? automatic on/off/
- Selection of accessories. Nice when things fit together.
- Bag or no bag. That is a personal preference and I prefer bags my self.
- Capacity, both suction wise and collection wise
- Use, will you use it for more than just sanding etc

Either brand will serve you well.

Disclaimer; I have a Festool CT22 and love it. I have some of their other products as well, and for non Festool products I have made my own adapters.

Michael

[Joe Mioux]

i have a ct33 and i like it.

the bags are expensive, so i try to dump the dirt out of it and re-use them.

I think one of those little Dust Deputy cyclones would be money well spent, thus saving the filter and bags on a Festool.

I have never read anything bad about the Fein. Everything is good.

[Joe Cowan]

i have a ct33 and i like it.

the bags are expensive, so i try to dump the dirt out of it and re-use them.

I think one of those little Dust Deputy cyclones would be money well spent, thus saving the filter and bags on a Festool.

I have never read anything bad about the Fein. Everything is good.

I thought the Dust Deputy operated like a cyclone withthe bigger particles going into the DP and most of the fine dust being collected in the filter. Is that incorrect?

[Lex Boegen]

I have a ShopVac QSP which is much quieter than other shop vacs that I've owned/used. I put in a filter bag rated for drywall dust and it works great. It's quiet enough that I use it inside the house too, for vacuuming hard surface floors.

[Chuck Tringo]

I thought the Dust Deputy operated like a cyclone withthe bigger particles going into the DP and most of the fine dust being collected in the filter. Is that incorrect?

Yes that is correct, but since all the big stuff is going into the DD, it will take much much longer to fill the bag with only very fine dust.

[Don Bullock]

I thought the Dust Deputy operated like a cyclone withthe bigger particles going into the DP and most of the fine dust being collected in the filter. Is that incorrect?

Joe, I have a Dust Deputy attached to my ShopVac. Very little dust of any size gets past the DD into the ShopVac. I rarely have to change the bag.

[Peter Pedisich]

Joe,

After much research I purchased a Festool CT22 and it has been the most significant woodworking purchase I've made. Breathing absolutely clean air while woodworking is a good thing. I've breathed in more than my share of awful stuff in my 44+ years, and maybe it just makes me feel better but that's got to count for something.
I'm sure if you got the Fein, you'd be just as happy. In fact, the newer ridgids, with scroll noise reduction and available HEPA filters are great if thats what your budget allows.


Pete

[Michael Prisbylla]

If you're concerned about the really fine dust, I have had great success with a run of the mill shop vac using a cleanstream brand filter. It's made out of Gore-tex so even super fine stuff like drywall dust doesn't get past it, and best of all, it's washable. They run about $30.

[glenn bradley]

+1 on CleanStream filters. HEPA rated and you can clean them with a garden hose or in the shop sink. I have one that I have been running for about 5 years and another for about 2 years when I added a 2nd vac. These are both on inexpensive ($100 or so) Ridgid vacs that are noisy but very powerful. I have the hose fitting that allows me to reduce to suction so my ROS doesn't slow down.

[Joe Mioux]

RE: Dust Deputy and Festool's vac.

I made my earlier comment based on not having to replace the festool bag as often (if at all), and not its ability to capture fine particles.

[george wilson]

My Fein vacs came with a fuzzy cloth filter shaped like a bucket. I took them off and used a Cleanstream. But,the Cleanstream kept getting clogged up,and was a bit of trouble to take outside and knock off.

I put the bucket filter back in,and kept the Cleanstream inside it. Now,the dust getting through to the Cleanstream is very much reduced,and I haven't had to change it for quite some time.P.S.: Don't discard those bucket type filters. they cost about $50.00 IIRC!.

[Wes Grass]

As to the original question, I have both, a CT-33 and an older Fein. In terms of noise and power they're close enough that I can't tell the difference.

Biggest difference is the Festool moves around the shop easier. But it's all but impossible to carry up the stairs.

[Alan Schaffter]

You don't need a Festool or a Fein. The cost for what you see in the first pic is less than the price of either of those vacs and it works better.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050004.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050005.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050006.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB0500161.JPG

[Van Huskey]

It is a toss up between the Fein and Festool for me, so particularly if you have no need to feed a Festool habit the Feins are cheaper.

[Peter Pedisich]

WOW. nice shop Alan!

[Mike Zilis]

I went through this process about 3 months ago. I was looking at Fein, Festool, Shopvac, Bosch and the one I ended up going with - the Porter Cable 7814. Very happy with it. Built like a tank, maneuverable, the internal paper bags work great and I've got truly dustless random orbit sanding for the first time.

-Mike

[Carl Babel]

I have a 22 year old Shop Vac that just doesn't want to quit :D - so I can't justify buying a new quiet one.

I have added a CleanStream filter and a Dust Deputy. Other than having to wear hearing protection, I couldn't be happier with this - very little seems to make it to the CleanStream (even using ROS) and it is so easy to clean.

My recommendation: find the quietest shop vacuum you can get that will accommodate a Cleanstream filter.

[Steve knight]

I have two feins. they have been run for 20 or 30 hours each and I never have to clean the filer or empty them. beat tha. well they are used to provide vacuum for my cnc router so I guess that does not count. but they can run for hours without a problem at all.

[Joe Cowan]

I have ordered the Festool 33 and now have discovered the boom arm for holding the hose above your head. I think now I will have it beside my work table and table saw, and will now be able to use my Shark Guard which I did not have hooked up to any DC before.

[Anthony Scott]

Wow, You hooked up all that to one shop vac?? It really does work well?



You don't need a Festool or a Fein. The cost for what you see in the first pic is less than the price of either of those vacs and it works better.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050004.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050005.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB050006.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1404/medium/PB0500161.JPG

[Anthony Scott]

Thanks. You can see and read more about it here. (http://www.woodcentral.com/contests/shopideas/)

Congrats on that! I wish the pics were bigger though.. do you have a web site for it?

[Alan Schaffter]

Wow, You hooked up all that to one shop vac?? It really does work well?

Yup, works geat!!! Since those pics were taken I added small blastgates at each drop. I still need to add remote on off switches at each blast gate. Actually, the setup is no different than a whole house vac, actually just shorter. And, the mini cyclone keeps the shopvac's Clean Stream filter clean for a long time so it maintains much better suction, much longer.

A few more details- there is a 6" DC port below the slide-out SCMS for collection of the large amount of dust that is not collected by the blade guard. I plan to get a slightly shorter and larger diameter hose for the ceiling/over table drop, but it works well also.

I also lined the cabinet with sound absorbing material- it is much quieter than initially- more so than my local barbershop. The cabinet has a vent which is very important. It is barely visible in the lower right-hand corner. The magazine that will be publishing this tip (in the next couple of months) was concerned about heat in the cabinet. I put the remote sensor to an indoor/outdoor thermometer in the cabinet and after an hour and a half of steady operation the temp in the cabinet had only gone up up to 94 deg where it stabilized (less than body temp).

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Thumbs up on the Clearstream HEPA filter--$30 at Lowe's and does a great job in an old but loud vac from True Value Hardware. I have a Fein too. Noise is the main difference I see in the dust collection. I wear hearing protection with both.

[Alan Schaffter]

Folks, it does no good to talk about the ClearVue vs Oneida issue unless you (1) are a patent attorney, and (2) know all the details, and time lines.

Not being a patent attorney I can't say if it is a factor in this issue, but by my reckoning, the "idea" of a mini-cyclone pre-dated and was "in the public domain" (and therefore not patentable) before either ClearVue or Oneida got involved. But the current crop of minis may differ enough to be patentable.
The concept of a cyclone has been used in the cotton and grain industries for many years (since the early 1900's?), yet Oneida holds a number of cyclone patents, so I suspect they differ enough to meet the criteria to be issued a patent.

Anyone who has been around since the early days of the now defunct "The Oak Factory" and "Badger Pond" woodworking forums may remember Jim Halbert. Jim, who possibly pre-dates Bill Pentz, was a woodworker and tinkerer, and outspoken in his criticism of DC, shopvac, etc. manufacturer's claims (motor hp, CFM etc. - he was right!). He was subsequently STRONGLY threatened, possibly served with a cease and desist court order, or even punitively sued by one of them! (As a result you do not see him posting anywhere anymore). Anyway, Jim built, tested, and published descriptions and pics of his mini-cyclone on one or more of the forums - essentially putting "a version" of a mini-cyclone design in the "public domain," possibly* several years before Oneida and ClearVue came out with their products.

However, if you don't know patent law, when* and if a Provisional Patent Application or full Utility Patent Application were submitted (it can take up to three years to be reviewed and issued by the USPTO), or examine the actual patent "claims" (technical USPTO term), you can't make any informed judgment as to whether Oneida was issued a valid patent or issued one in error on something already in the "public domain." Also, you don't know if ClearVue's version, actually infringes on the Oneida mini. It doesn't matter when a product actually hits the market. *The date of invention can actually start much earlier than the date the patent issues.

I believe no court actions have been taken by either side. Oneida just had their lawyers send a letter telling ClearVue they are infringing and to stop. ClearVue could fight it in court, or as I believe they are trying to do now, try to convince the USPTO to review and ultimately rule that the Oneida design was already in the "public domain" and therefore the patent is invalid. I don't know how that process will work, and whether they can force the USPTO to review the patent without filing a suit. If CV is unsuccessful then they will need to go to court to resolve the issue. If no action is taken by the USPTO or the patent is upheld, then ClearVue must either go to court to show how their mini does not infringe, or stop marketing it. Unfortunately this can be a very costly endeavor.

Evidently, Oneida feels strongly enough about their patent claim, that they are willing to accept negative reactions from woodworkers.

If there are any patent attorneys out there please weigh in to correct any errors I may have made.

[Alan Schaffter]

Congrats on that! I wish the pics were bigger though.. do you have a web site for it?

Thanks. Sorry, no website. I moved and changed ISPs a number of years ago and never rebuilt my website. There are pics of most of it in my Alan in Little Washington gallery at NCWoodworker but I am not sure you can view them as a guest.

My shop was supposed to be the subject of a multi-page article in Woodcraft Magazine. We couldn't come to an agreement on what would be covered and what wouldn't, and they were only going to pay me a paltry sum, so I declined. I have since sold numerous shop tips about it to other magazines and wrote a large, 12 page, two-part feature article about my assembly table which was published in the Dec/Jan 2010 issue of AWW, so I think I made the right decision.