Locking an electrical sub panel

[Scott Gibbons]

I have two small children, my daughter is 6 and my son is 2 (and extremely curious). Right now all of my tools are covered, unplugged, and the breaker is off. I have a dedicated 100amp panel in the garage, so it makes this simple to manage. However, it is only a matter of time before my 2 year old figures out that the breakers are nothing more than switches and during that time he will craft a ladder out of God only knows what to get to them. Now my children are never unattended, but I am looking for that extra bit of safety. Do you know if it would be against code to somehow attach a padlock on the sub panel and lock it closed?

Thanks!
Scott

[Bryan Wellman]

What kind of panel? A lot of companies actually put a knock out in the cover and have loks that you can buy. Easier still is screwing/rivetting a simple hasplock onto the cover. See it all the time. As an electrician, the only time I have seen issues with locking out power is if the utility company cant get into it. For a subpanel, no problem locking it out when it's off.

[Scott Gibbons]

Bryan,
Its a cutler hammer and thats exactly what I want to do!

Thanks!

[Bryan Wellman]

No inspector will ever fault you for locking your panel if its off. Can't get any safer than that!! :)

[Scott Gibbons]

Bryan,
Just to clarify, the panel is on, it is fed by a 100amp circuit off our main panel in the basement. What is off, are all of the breakers that the panel houses. but the panel itself will be powered.

[Bryan Wellman]

Shouldn't matter. As long as you can easily shut the main breaker in the house panel off or the subpanel's main breaker in the house box, it's really not an issue. What concerns them is if you have things locked out with everything on. They expect you to be able to readily kill power in case of an emergency. With it being a subpanel you have th option of turning just its main off or the whole house.

[Scott Gibbons]

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated

[Bruce Wrenn]

Have you considered putting a non fused disconnect in the feed to your panel? Most include a slot for a lock. This way you could leave everything on in the panel, and just kill the power at the disconnect.

[Scott Gibbons]

I thought about it, but that same panel controls the lights in the garage so I cannot totally cut it off.

[George Bregar]

So you actually are locking a panel that is energized and has a live circuit...the lights.

[Scott Gibbons]

Yes, that is correct.

[Matt Meiser]

I can't comment on code, but energized, locked panels are all over the place in offices schools, etc. Those would be sub-panels most likely, fed from a main switchboard in an electrical closet.

Is there a knockout in the door to add a lock? I think the Siemens panel in my shop has one.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Have you considered putting a non fused disconnect in the feed to your panel? Most include a slot for a lock. This way you could leave everything on in the panel, and just kill the power at the disconnect.

Bruce, I am in a similar boat. When I google "non fused disconnect" most of the hits are for 200$+ devices with a minimum of 3 poles. For normal 2 phase power are you required to disconnect ground to?

[David Hostetler]

I have pretty much the same question. I need to talk to my building dept to find out for sure. I have heard conflicting reports on this. Some electricians say you can lock an energized panel, some say it is against city ordinances, they want the FD to have access to the panel to be able to shut off the circuits in case of a fire... But the PD here recommends locking any exterior panels... So I am completely confused...

[Rick Davidson]

Why not just use standard lock out tag out locks.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#circuit-breaker-lockouts/=5nz50p

[Rollie Meyers]

Bruce, I am in a similar boat. When I google "non fused disconnect" most of the hits are for 200$+ devices with a minimum of 3 poles. For normal 2 phase power are you required to disconnect ground to?

It is not permitted to switch a grounding conductor, it is permitted to switch a grounded (neutral) if they are switched simultaneously w/ the ungrounded (hot) conductors. (They must make /break at the same time).

2 phase is a obsolete power system, it only still exists in a few areas, what you have is 2-legs of a single phase system.

[Lee Schierer]

Many industrial Square D boxes come with locks built into the door latch. You might be able to just buy a new door panel.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Bruce, I am in a similar boat. When I google "non fused disconnect" most of the hits are for 200$+ devices with a minimum of 3 poles. For normal 2 phase power are you required to disconnect ground to?Salem, HD carries disconnects up to 60 amps. Even if they are fused, they will work. Most indoor HP units require a 60 amp disconnect. You will pay more for a 3 pole (3 phase) disconnect, than a 2 pole. Bruce

[Paul Atkins]

Seems like this is really about the 2 year old and not the panel. Let him grab a spark plug wire and let him know what electricity can do. He'll leave those alone till he grows up. O.K a little harsh I know, but I stuck my finger in a light socket when I was about that age and remember it well. And yes, I still change switches while hot. Boy did I get up on the wrong side of bed today------(Take a deep breath-----)

[Scott Gibbons]

LOL, I think the best school is the school of hard knocks

[Mark Bolton]

Seems like this is really about the 2 year old and not the panel. Let him grab a spark plug wire and let him know what electricity can do.

While I think Paul talked himself down off the ledge quite nicely I dont think he is too far from the truth.

Way too many parents nowadays are expecting society, and manufacturers, to do their parenting for them. To the OP please dont take this the wrong way, however, one has to wonder where were the decals on the sides of buckets saying "your infant can drown in a bucket full of joint compound" when we were kids. Why werent the packages we opened at Christmas all filled with bags labeled "this is not a toy" on them?

My perspective on this is that we are in the "age of empowerment". We want our children to be completely unchallenged and spread their wings. It is absolutely ludicrous. A childs life is about boundaries and consequences to crossing them.

As a child, my house had an old screw in fuse panel with glass fuses. Any one of these could be easily removed and a finger or tongue inserted (thats how stupid this is), yet it never crossed my mind. In fact what DID cross my mind is "my mom or dad would probably be pretty pissed if I went in that thing". I remember those mental taps on the shoulder clearly when I was doing something really stupid. Of course some I still did, but those taps saved me many many times.

While I think advances in safety are wonderful and I dont want to see a return to the days of screw in fuses, at least your child has no access to live current. There is NO WAY, the child could do ANYTHING in that panel to put themselves in danger. The only reason that child will enter that panel is because of a parents lack of supervision, or lack of information (read that as imparting a serious sense of fear).

I will just say, that I was only spanked one time in my life. It wasnt even a bad spanking, and it didnt straighten me out. But my mother had a way of grabbing you by the arm, pinching pretty tight,l and giving you a look, that was far worse than her picking up a 24" crescent wrench and clubbing you across the face with it.

It's was the look that said "you have let me down".

I avoided that face at all costs throughout my life. Far better than any lock.

Am I on the ledge? Yuk Yuk
Mark

[John Coloccia]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but what's the big deal if he flips breakers back and forth? I know if I was flipping breakers back and forth, and someone came into my shop and said, "What are you crazy? Stop flipping those breakers back and forth. That's DANGEROUS!", I'd say, "No it's not. Now if you didn't bring beer, get out of my shop."

Let him flip the breakers back and forth all he wants. In a minute or so he'll figure out that nothing interesting is happening and he'll look for some other way to get in trouble.

[Bob Luciano]

Funny that you ask this question. I just installed a non fused disconnect to the panel that powers up all the tool circuits. The lights are fed from another panel altogether. Cost me a bit more to do it that way but I won't have to worry about a kid get cut all to shreds by something with a motor. Next is a locking cabinet for chisels and planes so far upper shelves have worked but that luxury is running out soon. The soon to be installed RPC will have another panel and disconnect. The way things are going might give up woodworking and get myself licensed as an electrician:D

[Rod Sheridan]

That's funny Bob, however don't give up woodworking:D.

It very much is hit and miss with manufacturers of machinery, some put lockable disconnect switches on each piece of woodworking machinery, others don't.

The machines that didn't have a lockable switch, I used a clam shell lockout on the cord end.

Of course eventually as the kids got older they were allowed to use any machine that they were trained to use in their shop class.

One of my daughters wasn't interested in wood working, the other remains interested and is building herself a desk now.

I never locked up the sharp stuff, however that may be a good idea for the children as well as the sharp stuff.:D

Regards, Rod.

[Joshua Layne]

I'm wishing I had at least put a subpanel or disconnect in when I wired my shop. As I am going to have to redo the 220 anyway (I need way more outlets than I thought... who knew I'd have so many big machines? MUWHAHA...) I will add a disconnect (probably locking) there - that will cover the TS, Shaper, RAS and once I get around to rewiring them, the jointer and the bandsaw - the DPs I may not screw with, but maybe...

Not that my dad didn't point out the defect in my design as he was wiring it, but he did make one mistake... he didn't insist.

-Josh (you're not the only parent who is paranoid - a little shock, ok but I'd prefer 9V battery to a 20 amp circuit and whirling metal blades? no thanks)

[Mark Boyette]

Don't use 3" screws to attach the hasp.:D

[Jason Roehl]

2 phase is a obsolete power system, it only still exists in a few areas, what you have is 2-legs of a single phase system.

Put the 2 legs of 240V service on an oscilloscope, and you'll see that they are 180º out of phase, hence "two phases". Yes, those two legs are obtained by center-grounding a transformer and tapping the two ends of the secondary coil, while the primary coil is off a single phase of the higher-voltage lines. In the end, it's just nomenclature--the reality is that there are two phases present in a "single-phase" electrical service.