Best measuring tool for miter slot/blade/fence alignment?

[Cameron Reddy]

http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/23139-01-200.jpg

I've got the above-pictured plastic tool with which I'm not too impressed. I think it's too flexible to give consistent results. I get the gage to move by applying even light pressure to the unit as I slide it to and fro.

So, I'm thinking of something like this:

http://www.incrementaltools.com/v/vspfiles/photos/WPSG-WP-2.jpg

The Woodpecker's unit is on sale, so I'm wondering...

[Tom Walz]

Personally I am pretty impressed by Woodpecker.

Heck, I bought a T square (TS-12-2) in Las Vegas. Didn't need it, haven't used it but it is just so pretty and well made. Maybe I should buy a second one to actually use.

Tom

[don kellog]

I have been wondering the same thing. Incra also sells one called A-Line-It System that seems to have a few more uses.

http://www.incrementaltools.com/A_Line_It_System_Kit_p/ilalineitkit1.htm

[Jon Todd]

I have been wondering the same thing. Incra also sells one called A-Line-It System that seems to have a few more uses.

http://www.incrementaltools.com/A_Line_It_System_Kit_p/ilalineitkit1.htm


I have that one and its easy to use and seems pretty acurate and not so touchy.

[Cameron Reddy]

How do you guys with the A-Line-It system make sure that the bar is exactly 90 degrees to the miter slot?

[Michael MacDonald]

How do you guys with the A-Line-It system make sure that the bar is exactly 90 degrees to the miter slot?

Made my own with a HF dial gauge and a strip of wood. Just to check the blade and the fence, but I would think you don't need the bar to be 90 degrees... as long as the gauge is mounted solid and there is no play IN the mitre slot, the reading should tell if the blade and fence are properly parallel...

What I don't know if how to use this sort of setup to determine if the miter is 90 degrees... right now I use a framing square, but I am not too happy with that process, and I am not too happy with my miter gauge... need to find an alternative.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There is a guy here that taught shop for many years. He has the ultimate tool for this.


You take a 3/4"x3/4"x 12 piece of hardwood.....start a brass wood screw into one end of it.


Clamp it to your miter gauge.

Mark one tooth on your blade.

Adjust the screw in or out to make contact with that tooth.

Rotate the blade to the other (forward or rear) position and slide the tool and miter gauge there and check it the same fit as position 1.

Cheap and uses the miter gauge for the setup.

[Gene Howe]

Take a look at what this guy did. Not that anyone needs this sort of precsion but, it's an interesting use of TWO dial indicators.

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=5102&page=2

[brian c miller]

For about the same money as the woodpecker setup I'd vote or the TS-Aligner Jr Lite. It's based on the screw / indicator on a stick principle and VERY well executed.

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlite.htm (http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlite.htm)

This will also measure angles (+/- 0.057 deg) based on simple trig.

It will replace the Woodpeck gauge & a Wixey box.

This guys it pretty nice to. I used the same basic concept (except used screws at the bottom) to build mine. I have a few Starett indicators in a drawer and have been thinking about sending one off to be calibrated with a TS Aligner. If all it did was give you a straight line it seems over priced but to me the angle measurement is what you are paying for.



These guys FTW on how many indicator you can put on a device:
http://www.allendesignsllc.com/SQ-2.htm

[scott spencer]

You can get within a gnat's eyelash with simple devices like these....spend the savings on a better saw blade!

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/images/etip030411sn-photo.jpg

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/194/Alignment_Setup1.JPG

http://www.guropia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/img_2339.jpg

[Howard Acheson]

Here is the low cost way. It will give you the same level of accuracy as a high dollar tool. After all, how often will you have to make or check these adjustments?

Make 3/4 x 3/4 x 12" hardwood stick. Drill a hole somewhat centered in one end and insert a brass #8 x 1" round head fine thread machine screw about half way. UNPLUG THE SAW. Raise the blade completely up. Clamp this board in your miter gauge (if you determine that there is some slop in your slot to miter gauge, use a playing card to take up the slop) so the screw head just about touches the blade at the front. Now rotate the blade by hand and determine which tooth is the closest. Adjust the screw in or out until it just touches this tooth. Mark this tooth

The same adjustment gauge can be used to set the fence parallel to the miter slot. Slide the miter gauge to the front of the table and move the fence over to the screw head and insert a playing card between the screw head and the fence just so you can move the card as it touches both the fence and the screw head. Now move the miter gauge to the back of the table and see if you have the same feel when you insert the card.

[Bruce Page]

I don’t like the Woodpecker’s system from a metrology standpoint. The dowel rod is actually riding on the chamfer and not the slot. Who’s to say that they are the same? Parallelism to the blade and fence should be gauged from the slot wall.
I have shown the best (most accurate) method, IMO, in this thread; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 There are links to inexpensive Grizzly surface gages further down in the thread.

[Cameron Reddy]

Bruce,

I can't find that "travel" indicator. The one with the bearing on the end. Grizzly doesn't seem to carry it.

I like the idea of the bearing to keep the extended probe from bending.

Good point about the gage running on the chamfer!

Cameron

[Rick Huelsbeck]

I have been wondering the same thing. Incra also sells one called A-Line-It System that seems to have a few more uses.

http://www.incrementaltools.com/A_Line_It_System_Kit_p/ilalineitkit1.htm


I have this very set up and I love it. I've had to use the heck out of it lately to get my table saw tweaked in. I have blade less than .001 front to back, no run out on the arbor and the fence is less than .001 front to back in the same direction as the blade. It sets very steady in the miter track and when you go to move it you do not see it move on the dial when you grab it. They make a larger one, but the smaller one is all I've ever needed. BTW I also use it to set my router fence straight when I need it.

[Bill Miltner]

If I understand your objection correctly.... The Woodpeckers gauge's dowel rod does not register against the chamfer. There are two smaller rods that rest in the groove, registered against the sidewalls. The dowel rod then rests in the space between the two smaller rods.

I do not have the gauge, but have seen it in person.

[Cameron Reddy]

I found this on "roller points."

Any suggestion as to which would work best to run along a blade or a fence?

I've got a Grizzly dial which I presume is metric.



Roller Point

The surface to be tested runs conveniently underneath this rolling contact point. The roller allows for continuous readings to be taken. Used with flat metals, foils, sheets of fabric, etc. A lock nut (included) keeps the roller aligned.

Available in non damaging Teflon®, hardened steel or stainless steel. The wheel can have a radius or it can be flat. You will probably want to use the radius wheel on a flat surface and the flat wheel (without radius) when measuring something like wire or edges.

The stainless roller without radius (shown to the left) is not as hard as hardened steel (your other option) and will wear faster under abrasive circumstances, but it will not corrode if used under wet or damp conditions.

The schematic illustration shows the wheel with a radius. The dimensions are approximate but valid for all roller points.

If you can't find the correct thread size here, consider using a converter. Rolling contact points are frequently used with Mitutoyo or Teclock indicators but will fit any indicator having the correct thread size.

4-48 Teflon® roller point with radius MTC12-22 ... $38.95
4-48 Stainless steel roller point without radius MTC12-25 ... $38.95
4-48 Stainless steel roller point with radius MTC12-26 ... $38.95
M2.5 hardened steel roller point with radius MTC12-20 ... $38.95
M2.5 Stainless steel roller point without radius MTC12-27 ... $38.95
M2.5 Teflon® roller point with radius MTC12-24 ... $38.95

[Dan Friedrichs]

I also just have a hardwood runner that I scraped to a tight fit. Firm pressure in any direction does not cause more than 0.001 change in what the dial indicator says.

[Lee Schierer]

My miter gauge has two slots for screws in the face. I attach a piece of wood to the miter gauge with two screws and put one screw with a washer under the head to hold the dial indicator to the same piece of wood so it can touch the blade or fence. It's cheap and repeatable, which is all you need. I paid $12 for my dial indicator from HF.

No need to spend a lot for a measurement that needs to be done occasionally.

[Steven J Corpstein]

I don’t like the Woodpecker’s system from a metrology standpoint. The dowel rod is actually riding on the chamfer and not the slot. Who’s to say that they are the same? Parallelism to the blade and fence should be gauged from the slot wall.
I have shown the best (most accurate) method, IMO, in this thread; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 There are links to inexpensive Grizzly surface gages further down in the thread.

I use the same method as Bruce and it is by far the most accurate, least complicated, least gizmo involved method to use. Besides aligning the tablesaw, you can use it for the jointer, planer, or even making sure the lead on your pencils are sharpened exactly the same

[Bruce Page]

Bruce,

I can't find that "travel" indicator. The one with the bearing on the end. Grizzly doesn't seem to carry it.

I like the idea of the bearing to keep the extended probe from bending.

Good point about the gage running on the chamfer!

Cameron

Cameron, you don’t need the wheel tip, I rarely ever use mine. A typical travel indicator will have a interchangeable ball end that is very durable and aside from dropping it, you’d have to go out of your way to bend the rod.

[Bruce Page]

If I understand your objection correctly.... The Woodpeckers gauge's dowel rod does not register against the chamfer. There are two smaller rods that rest in the groove, registered against the sidewalls. The dowel rod then rests in the space between the two smaller rods.

I do not have the gauge, but have seen it in person.

Bill, I haven’t seen the Woodpecker in person. I’m going by what the picture shows. I remember when they first came out and thinking that their measuring method was wrong. If there are hidden pins that actually register against the slot wall then it would work fine.

[Joe Leigh]

I don’t like the Woodpecker’s system from a metrology standpoint. The dowel rod is actually riding on the chamfer and not the slot.

This is incorrect. The gauge is NOT riding on the chamfer. In fact the top bar isn't touching the miter slot at all. The top bar stock rides between two smaller pieces of bar stock which are hard to see in that picture. This insures that it is perfectly centered in the miter slot.

[Myk Rian]

Here's what I use. Nice and simple.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=112447&d=1236559869

[Greg Portland]

+1 to Howard's suggestion. There is no reason to buy fancy gauges. Do you care if your saw is 2 hundredths out of alignment or if it's just out of alignment? A primitive feeler gauge setup (screw through a stick of wood, attached to a miter gauge) works extremely well. You can also use this 2 cent tool (or something similar) for jointer / planer knife height adjustment & drill press runout checking.

[Robert Chapman]

I have the Woodpecker and I love it. It is easy to use and as far as I can tell very accurate. It even comes in a nice storage box. It works for me.

[Homer Faucett]

+1 to Howard's suggestion. There is no reason to buy fancy gauges. Do you care if your saw is 2 hundredths out of alignment or if it's just out of alignment? A primitive feeler gauge setup (screw through a stick of wood, attached to a miter gauge) works extremely well. You can also use this 2 cent tool (or something similar) for jointer / planer knife height adjustment & drill press runout checking.

+2 Fast, cheap, easy, and accurate. I can't gloat about how accurate the runout is on my saw, but I can tell you it cuts dead accurate. I used Howie's write-up to dial in my first table saw, and used his method ever since.

[Brian Penning]

IMO The Oneway Multi-Gauge.
http://www.oneway.ca/workshop/multi-gauge.htm

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/multigagervu.html

[Bruce Page]

This is incorrect. The gauge is NOT riding on the chamfer. In fact the top bar isn't touching the miter slot at all. The top bar stock rides between two smaller pieces of bar stock which are hard to see in that picture. This insures that it is perfectly centered in the miter slot.

Joe, see my post above your's.

[Glen Butler]

I use the combination square method above, which is pretty much what Ken suggests, except that I use a block it the miter slot to butt the combo square to. I mark a tooth and make sure that the tooth just brushes the square front and back. Just as accurate as a dial but uses tools I already have. I aline the fence using the same method.

[Matt Meiser]

I've used the Woodpecker borrowed from a friend and liked it well enough that I bought the Pinnacle version from someone here. Like every single Woodpecker item I've seen or own (pretty similar lists :p), its really nicely made. Before that I always did something with my miter gauge.

[Bill Farlow]

If you are considering buying any table saw alignment jig you should first become a member of tablesawalignment.com (http://www.tablesawalignment.com) and read all the articles this guy has on setting up and using a table saw. This is different from anything else you have ever heard or read about table saw alignment. The guy really knows his stuff and doesn't hold back when it comes to explaining why people have so many problems with the popular methods. Membership is free and I haven't seen a single bit of spam since I joined more than a year ago.

Bill

[glenn bradley]

I suspect Scott and I are twin sons (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=117955&d=1241992924) of different mothers (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=111878).

[Neil Brooks]

Ignore me. I'm just talking to myself, here:

[My Starrett is plenty good enough.
My Starrett is plenty good enough.
My Starrett is plenty good enough.
My Starrett is plenty good enough.
My Starrett is plenty good enough.
My Starrett is plenty good enough.]

Dang it. I don't think it's working :D

[Anthony Whitesell]

I don’t like the Woodpecker’s system from a metrology standpoint. The dowel rod is actually riding on the chamfer and not the slot. Who’s to say that they are the same? Parallelism to the blade and fence should be gauged from the slot wall.
I have shown the best (most accurate) method, IMO, in this thread; http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315 There are links to inexpensive Grizzly surface gages further down in the thread.

Actually the Woodpecker version is in the slot not on it. If you look REALLY close at the posted picture, you can see the front dowel is above the slot not on or in it.

The system consists of 5 pieces. There are two smaller pins barely visible in the picture that the larger I-shaped dowel rides on. The read piece and the gauge, two riding pins, the front I-shaped dowel and the smooth rear dowel. It is gauranteed to be against the side of the miter slot and will automatically adjust to any thickness slot whether it's .700, .745, or .750 wide. Based on my measurement and reference background, the design for riding in the miter slot best of the systems available.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I have the A-Line it from In-Line Industries. It came with my "Dubby." But I also made several (gave them as gifts) of the "Shop Made Dial Indicator" from Woodsmith. The hardware in each is less than a buck, not including DI. Instead of blade, I use John White's idea. Take a piece of 1/2" plywood, about 2" wide by 8" long. Mark a center line down it's length. About 1" from one end, drill a 5/8" hole. Mount is place of the blade. With plywood rotated forward in saw, move DI over to touch center line. Put a "Sharpie" mark where DI touches plywood, on center line. Rotate ply to back of throat opening, along with DI. Touch DI to previous mark to take readings. Plywood doesn't have to be perfect, as you are taking both readings from same point. Sorry I can't do pictures.

[Cameron Reddy]

For about the same money as the woodpecker setup I'd vote or the TS-Aligner Jr Lite. It's based on the screw / indicator on a stick principle and VERY well executed.

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlite.htm (http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlite.htm)

This will also measure angles (+/- 0.057 deg) based on simple trig. ...


Brian,

The full boat Aligner is impressive! That looks to be the best fixture of all.

Have you ordered from him? I’m wondering what his wait list is and what accessories I should get with the TS-Aligner.

Cameron

[brian c miller]

He is the same guy that runs the site mentioned above: http://tablesawalignment.com/

Lead times run a few weeks, you pick you indicator form a a list of what he has.

I'd also get a good angle block (calibrate to 45* & 90*) and square if you don't already have one.

[Darnell Hagen]

I was able to attach my dial indicator to the stop rod holes in my mitre gauge head, using parts from the magnetic base. Works like a charm.

After you get your ts aligned, tilt the blade to 45, you'll probably need to shim the table to complete the set up.

[Don Stanley]

Take a look at what this guy did. Not that anyone needs this sort of precsion but, it's an interesting use of TWO dial indicators.

http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=5102&page=2

Hey Gene, by coincidence, I was thinking about the concept of using TWO dial indicators, then up pops your post. Unfortunately, the pictures are tied to a Shop Smith forum. Can't see the pictures unless you are a member, and they require way to much personal information register.

I'm still curious how the two dial indicators are initially calibrated! Any ideas?

-Don

[Bob Borzelleri]

If you are considering buying any table saw alignment jig you should first become a member of tablesawalignment.com (http://www.tablesawalignment.com/) and read all the articles this guy has on setting up and using a table saw. This is different from anything else you have ever heard or read about table saw alignment. The guy really knows his stuff and doesn't hold back when it comes to explaining why people have so many problems with the popular methods. Membership is free and I haven't seen a single bit of spam since I joined more than a year ago.

Bill

The opinions on woodworking machine alignment range from "eyeballing it" to the use of highly sophisticated measuring devices. Most of the arguments for simple approaches seem to be grounded in the notion that tolerances for woodworking are not particularly precise in the first place so why try to set up woodworking machines as though they were fine metalworking devices.

The above referenced site is run by Ed Bennett who makes the TS-Aligner. I bought a TS-Aligner Jr. about 10 years ago and I have used it to set up every tool in the shop (haven't used it for the planer). I don't accept the notion that woodworking tolerances don't require the precision that comes with well designed measuring devices. In my view, woodworking tolerances are unrelated to the concept of sharp metal spinning at very high speeds with human flesh nearby.

Under those conditions, poor alignment can and has resulted in loss of tool or workpiece control, not only with tablesaws, but for pretty much any woodworking machine that has high speed cutting surfaces.

I can't speak to the merits of other approaches, but I can say that, since using the TS-Aligner Jr., I have not had an incident with any of my woodworking machines that was the result of poor setup or alignment.

Having cut pieces come out right on spec is a nice additional benefit.

[Dan Galcik]

I have the woodpecker's gauge and I love it. In fact, I thought it was stolen once and replaced it. Don't you know, a week later I found the original.

[Anthony Scott]

Cool, thanks for this!


There is a guy here that taught shop for many years. He has the ultimate tool for this.


You take a 3/4"x3/4"x 12 piece of hardwood.....start a brass wood screw into one end of it.


Clamp it to your miter gauge.

Mark one tooth on your blade.

Adjust the screw in or out to make contact with that tooth.

Rotate the blade to the other (forward or rear) position and slide the tool and miter gauge there and check it the same fit as position 1.

Cheap and uses the miter gauge for the setup.

[Kevin Womer]

There is a guy here that taught shop for many years. He has the ultimate tool for this.


You take a 3/4"x3/4"x 12 piece of hardwood.....start a brass wood screw into one end of it.


Clamp it to your miter gauge.

Mark one tooth on your blade.

Adjust the screw in or out to make contact with that tooth.

Rotate the blade to the other (forward or rear) position and slide the tool and miter gauge there and check it the same fit as position 1.

Cheap and uses the miter gauge for the setup.
This is a great idea because it is effective and cheap.
Thanks for posting this.

[Cameron Reddy]

Cameron, you don’t need the wheel tip, I rarely ever use mine. A typical travel indicator will have a interchangeable ball end that is very durable and aside from dropping it, you’d have to go out of your way to bend the rod.

I’m using the dial with the arm extension installed. It’s necessary to reach my shaper fence. Perhaps the Grizzly I have is super cheap, but when I move the tool in the miter slot the probe jumps and then recovers. This indicates to me that the extended arm is bending from friction at the point. I’m hoping the roller end will minimize this. (It cost more than the entire Grizzly set up). It will also facilitate checking the roundness of my bandsaw wheels. And I’ll even be able to test it with the tire on the wheel, which would otherwise catch the probe tip.

Actually, I’d like to know if the dial should move and jump around as I move the outer rim to zero it out. Mine jumps around so much it takes three to four VERY gentle moves of the dial's rim to get the thing zeroed.

I'm thinking I should just order a Starrett... If I could figure out which one out of the dozens they make...

[Bob Wingard]

<<<__ ITEM IS SPOKEN FOR .. THANX __>>>

While we're all on this alignment topic .. I'd like to make an offer ..

FREE to the first responder who is willing to pay shipping .. .. a while back, I was making some homebrew bases for alignment jigs, and this one is simply an interim model. What I have is a 3/8" steel plate .. 3" X 7.25" .. it has two 1/4-20 holes drilled & tapped that are 1/2" in from the long and short end of the plate. There is a short slot that is centered between to two holes. All three holes are fitted with 5/8" sealed bearings .. .. the two end ones are fixed, and the center one is on a stud that can move within the groove. In practice, the center bearing is left loose .. the plate is placed on the table saw surface with the fixed bearings in the miter gauge slot .. the third bearing is moved into a position where it firmly contacts the opposing side of the slot, making for a snug fit. Middle bearing is now locked in place, and the whole thing slides nicely in the miter gauge slot. Magnetic jigs (dial indicator) can be mounted on the plate, and the whole thing slides fore & aft carrying the jig with it.

I hope you can visualize this, but if not, I'll charge up a set of batteries & get a pic for ya'. I made a newer version that is identical, EXCEPT the center bearing is spring-loaded, so no need to adjust for different tools .. it is free enough to be universal, and snug enough to fit perfectly.

Anyway .. I am cleaning out some old shop stuff, and thought someone might make use of this gizmo rather than toss it in the trash. I'm getting too old to keep hoarding all of this stuff, and when I'm gone, no one will have a clue what it's for, so here it is for anyone who wants to play with it.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, and if anyone has questions or comments, I'd appreciate it if they were sent privately.

[James Biddle]

Brian,

The full boat Aligner is impressive! That looks to be the best fixture of all.

Have you ordered from him? I’m wondering what his wait list is and what accessories I should get with the TS-Aligner.

Cameron
Cameron,
I've used the TS-Aligner a bit. It's a very nice, accurate piece of equipment. Last time I used it, I used the 90 degree angle feature normally used to check a blade's squareness to the table top and aligned my miter fence square to the blade. That's not a reason to buy it other than I think its a pretty versatile tool.

[Cameron Reddy]

Bob, sent you a PM. I'd gladly pay shipping for it!

James, very cool! Thanks for the vote of confidence! I really want one and can't wait until he can build it. That 90 degree feature is one BIG reason why I want it.

Cameron

[Michael O'Sullivan]

There is a guy here that taught shop for many years. He has the ultimate tool for this.


You take a 3/4"x3/4"x 12 piece of hardwood.....start a brass wood screw into one end of it.


Clamp it to your miter gauge.

Mark one tooth on your blade.

Adjust the screw in or out to make contact with that tooth.

Rotate the blade to the other (forward or rear) position and slide the tool and miter gauge there and check it the same fit as position 1.

Cheap and uses the miter gauge for the setup.

Ken-

With all due respect, without a pilot hole drilled using a NASA-certified insertion guide, this methodology lends itself to catastrophic error! You could be easily off by 1*10^(-8), or even an order of magnitude less!! Won't anyone please think of the children??!!!

[brian c miller]

That's funny... but I'm on the the indicator side of the fence.