Built-In/Knee Wall design questions

[brent lenthall]

-updated post below--

I have a client that wants two built-in cabinets in a play room (painted) and an entertainment center (walnut?) built-in for their bonus room. I'm having trouble with the entertainment center and could use some design help.

The bonus room is above the garage and has a "barn" style ceiling that angles from the knee wall (44") to the flat ceiling (8'). My head hits the ceiling when I'm about 39" from the knee wall. What's the best way to access the TV, stereo components, video games and storage without building a deep cabinet that takes up too much room?

The TV is 24" Deep 31" tall and 34' Wide. I'm planning on putting it behind flipper doors.

Thanks,

brent

Here is a sketch(up) of the space.

http://home.comcast.net/~brentlent/ww/bonus_room_sketch.jpg

[Jamie Buxton]

Brent --
Here's one way to think about it... The part of the floor which is within your 39" of the kneewall is somewhat useless space. You yourself have observed your head hits the ceiling at that point. Because that floor space is otherwise useless, you can make a cabinet which occupies a lot of that depth. You're using real estate which is otherwise useless.

That said, if you place the components low enough that their rear corners don't hit the ceiling, your users will already be beginning to crouch down as they approach the components. This has the effect of giving you more headroom.

[Jamie Buxton]

Brent ---

I just did a rough layout, and I think you have less of a problem with people's heads than you might think. I started by setting the altitude of the TV so that the center of the screen is about eyeball height on an adult sitting on a couch -- that's a good guideline for comfortable viewing. Then I shoved the TV back until its upper rear corner ran into the ceiling. The front of the TV came out to be 36" from the knee wall. That is, you'd have to be standing belly to the TV to hit your head on the ceiling.
Okay, I just used the TV height you spec'd. In reality, TVs taper down in the rear, so you could shove it a little further toward the wall. However, it is always good to have air space around a TV, so it shouldn't be shoved completely against the ceiling, so maybe the two effects balance out.
My point is that the TV itself pushes itself far enough from the kneewall that head bumping isn't a big issue.

[brent lenthall]

Jamie,

Thanks for the help. I'm working on a design now that puts the face of the cabinet a little over 36". To hold some of the cost down, I'm thinking about recessing the TV space the full amount, but keeping the cabinets depth (except end panels) shallower. If it was MDF or painted ply, I woundn't bother, but more stain grade sheets and deep slides can really add up.

I know your big into veneering, but do you have a suggestion (other than walnut ply) for the case carcass if I use walnut for the face frames, doors, drawers, etc? I don't want to be cheap, but with more than half the case hidden behind doors, I'm thinking about using poplar ply and dye.

Any thoughts? I know Todd Burch has had good results using poplar to mimic other woods.

thanks again Jamie.

brent

[Jamie Buxton]

Brent ---

One more thought... In my previous post I was talking about being able to push the TV back because the rear of it tapers down. However, if you're going to use pocket doors, they'll need the full height at the rear, so this won't work.

(One other caution about pocket door mechanisms. When you shove the door back as far as it can go, the rear edge of the door is 5" or so from the back of the cabinet. There's a part of the mechanism behind it. You may be able to design around this, but don't let it surprise you late in the construction.)

As for dyeing poplar to look like walnut, I've rarely seen a job good enough to not shout "I'm being cheap" at a wood guy. You may be able to reduce your costs by buying carefully. For instance, my local dealers sometimes have shop-grade sheets which have dings or nicks that you can cut around. Or you may be able to buy A-4 grade, which has one good face (the A face), and one bad face.

Jamie

[brent lenthall]

Jamie,

Thanks for the reminder on the flipper door hardware. I'll have to double check my design. Nearly every built-in I've done has been painted and I hope I didn't develop any bad habits that will cost me on this one. I think I'll take a trip to my supplier on Monday to figure out what will look the best.

brent

[Todd Burch]

Brent, I situations where I have really had to keep the cost down, but wanted the look of real walnut in a plywood application, I use 1/4" walnut ply over 3/4" something cheaper, like MDF. 3/4" Walnut ply - $85/sheet. 3/4" MDF - $19/sheet. 1/4" Walnut - $53/sheet. So, perhaps you wave $12/13 a sheet, but if you are talking 4 or 5 sheets, it adds up.

I really didn't make poplar look like cherry. I made poplar and cherry look the same, if you can visualize the difference. Both received a dye, both received a stain, both were glazed, and in the end, the both looked the same. To the casual observer, they will never know the difference. To a person who REALLY knows wood, you will be able to see a difference in grain characteristics and texture, but not color.

In situations in which I am designing built-ins, I'm not afraid to eliminate, or ignore, space that causes a problem. By this I mean, using your situation, it might be in the best interest of the room, to build a built-in that sits 2', for example, out from the 44" high wall and just ignore, or waste that short space against the wall. If the room can handle the waste, and you won't be crowding the main floor space, pretend it doesn't exist and leave a hollow area behind your built-in.

Jamie is dead right about the 5" for the flipper door hardware. You would think manufacturers would offer hardware that did not require that kind of overhead.

Todd

[brent lenthall]

Todd,

My 2nd version uses your idea to leave some "blank" space between the knee wall and the back of the cabinet. I will make the end panels (placing unit in the middle of the wall) to cover this space. I could put in a hidden to to utilize this space and provide limited access to wiring, etc.

Even if I'm using 5 sheets of Walnut Ply, I may just go with 3/4". For $100 more, it's less hassle and will be lighter than MDF. I'm not very good about asking for help lifting things into place:)

thanks,

brent

[brent lenthall]

I thought I would post an update on this project.

The pictures are large, so I thought a link might be best.

http://www.rightworksdesign.com/recent.html

Thanks to Jamie and Todd for the design input. I also emailed Todd about suggestions to match the air dried walnut and kiln dried plywood. Transfast Red Mahogany dye worked well as a toner without masking the grain.

brent

[Jim Becker]

Awesome job!! That's really a nice piece of work and perfect for the location.