Big Leaf Maple burl - Update

[John Keeton]

As some of you may recall, I started on this burl, and stopped to ask for input on whether to go with a bowl, or try something different.

I decided to try to hollow the form (a first for me), and to then do a finial and pedestal.

The hollowing is done - at least as far as I am comfortable going.
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Other than by feel, I have no way of knowing the thickness. The top ranges from 1/8" to probably 1/4". I believe the bottom is consistently (or close!) 1/4" +/-.

BTW, the burl is not fully sanded out yet, and some of the BLO has been removed by sanding and cleanup. It will look much better after some finish sanding and some more BLO.
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This is the first attempt at a finial for this piece. I have done one prior finial for one of the first pieces I did.
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This one is walnut, and I can either go with the walnut (BLO and shellac) or ebonize it black. Or, I can go with some other wood. I do have some holly that I could dye or ebonize.

My first impression is that the finial may be too large overall. It is 4.125" high, and the bulbous portion is 1" thick - probably too much. The smallest section of the spire is 1/8". In addition, I think the bulbous portion needs to be lower on the finial, with more spire.

This piece involves several firsts for me, and with only 9 non-spindle turnings behind me, this is stretching my abilities, but I want to learn and improve, so be honest in your comments.

I want to get the finial correct before going on to the pedestal. So, what are your thoughts?

[Bob Bergstrom]

Great idea!! I did not think there was much that could be done other than removing the dome. Your idea is much better. For your first finial it is well executed. I agree with your assumption that it is too big. Watch some of Cindy Drozda's videos on finial and you will get the idea. You are one fast learner.

[Curt Fuller]

John, I think you made an excellent choice in hollowing this and essentially turning it into a natural edged hollowform. I'll get some serious disagreement for this, but I think measuring is greatly overrated when creating a piece of wood art. That said, I believe what you did with the hollowing, just using your fingers and feeling for the thickness, is often the best way to go. Sometimes we tend to lose the artistic look when we try too hard to get it technically correct. As for the finial, I personally like the walnut, as is, with no ebonizing. Black would look good too, but the rich brown in the walnut compliments the golden colors in the burl. Because you already have it mounted on a walnut wasteblock, a walnut base or pedestal would look good too. Finials are really something that varies by personal taste, but I think this one would look better both thinner and taller. The captured ball being the main feature of the finial would look best near the lower third of the overall finial height, going back to the rule of thirds. That's really going to be a nice turning!

[Robert McGowen]

I want to get the finial correct before going on to the pedestal. So, what are your thoughts?

Honest thoughts? :D

My honest thoughts are that once you get the finial finished the way you like it best, you should stop there. To me, even the chuck does not look like it is substantial enough to be a pedestal for your masterpiece. It looks like it would turn out way top-heavy looking. I think that you know what to do with the finial already from your comments. I am not a "finial person" so my opinion in that area is probably more worthless than my comment about the pedestal!

Good luck with whichever way you decide to go!

[Allen Neighbors]

What he said. Curt, I mean. Love it. So far, you're still makin' me look bad!! :D

[Steve Vaughan]

I really like what you've done with this. I like the finial idea and I don't think you could go wrong with either the walnut or even the plain holly, but then, even the ebonized holly would rock too! The finial is a tad too big in my opinion, but you've just done a heck of a job there.

[Baxter Smith]

Looks great John! Glad you went that route! You have something extra special now! As for the finial, Ive never done one but for what its worth; as is, I almost think the finial overpowers the piece or at least competes with it for attention. So thinner/more delicate and taller might look better. I like the design but lowering the ball might help as well. I think one of the Christmas ornaments you did started something like this, then you later moved the thicker part upper down and made the next one more pleasing. The 1/3 thing.:D As for color, maybe black would be more striking but the walnut is fine and if you keep the walnut pedestal...
Looking Good!:)

[Bernie Weishapl]

John I really like what you did with this piece. Making it a HF is awesome. I like the finial but have to agree with Curt that the ball should be lower and slightly taller. Myself I would leave the walnut natural and not ebonize it. A base or foot would be optional IMHO. I think it would look good either way. John that is going to be one beautiful piece when it is completed.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Very impressive work John!!! Beautiful HF! You should be proud of this one!

Curt and I are thinking along the same lines on the finial - keep it Walnut and keep it natural as it highlights the colors in the burl and doesn't compete with them.

As mentioned - finials vary according to personal taste. I like what you have done here - but find it too ornate for the form. Just my opinion - but the burl should be the star of the turning and the more detail work there is on the finial - the more it competes for attention. Personally, I would cut the overall length of the finial to 2/3s of what it is now and slim it down dramatically.

With finials - it all about the taper (curve) and even little differences in diameter of the finial stand out and can make it appear clunky. The idea of the finial (again, my opinion) is to visually gain height and stretch the piece vertically without competing with the form it is trying to enhance.

It really is all up to you and what you find visually appealing. You are the one creating the piece. Work with those aspects that you find appealing and you will do just fine.

[Richard Madison]

Our first finials are virtually always too fat.

[Brian Effinger]

Wow John, you've really fallen head first, haven't you? Great HF! :) I think you've gotten good advice from Curt & Steve.

Well done, good Sir!

[Bill Bolen]

My goodness John, you have a real beauty going there. Find myself a bit anxious to see some finish on it and watch all the burl beauty pop out. Beautiful finial too but a bit largish for this piece. Impressive piece...Bill...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John, my friend....you have come a long ways in a very short time...very short time.

The HF...is gorgeous in every way.....a foot on it? .....Optional IMHO.

I agree with Curt and Steve concerning the finial.....lower the ball.....smaller.....taller.....thinner...but as stated that is a matter of personal taste.....


Overall......John you should be very proud of this....very very very excellent first HF. The best 1st HF I have ever seen!

Nicely done Sir!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John...I'm curious....what does the LOYL think about it?

[Jon Finch]

WOW! Stunning.

[Jamie Straw]

I love that burl, John, and what you've done with it. Let me be the first to nominate you for Courageous Turner of the Month (if not year) for going hollow for the first time on that piece. Cool!:cool:

[Scott Hackler]

I like the form and am glad you did this. I was going to suggest it but thought you might not feel comfortable with HF's yet. Looks real nice. I am going to offer a different point of view on the finial. I dont like it at all (not just this finial but any finial on THIS form). Since you are thinking about a pedestal, I would suggest either no finial or a simple ball type stopper or really short finial. Dont detract from the form. Its too nice for someones eyes to wander away to the finial. IMO, a wide base (wine glass type) pedestal would look awesome holding this form up for all to see.

[gary Zimmel]

Bold move to try the first hollow form on this John.
All or nothin! I love it.
Great job on what you did with this piece of wood.

Now don't drop it taking it to the house to show Eileen....

[Jon Lanier]

It looks unbelievable! But I think the finial should be thinner. taller or shorter... not sure.

[Dan Forman]

John---That's a really imaginative form you have there. Don't think I've ever seen one like it. I like it a lot. I agree with Steve's comments about the finial.

Dan

[Toney Robertson]

Looking amazing.

That is impressive for your first HF. I still have not gotten up enough nerve to try one yet. Maybe this will inspire me but I doubt my will turn out half as nice.

Toney

[Jack Mincey]

John, It turned out great. What is this bowl NUMBER 9 or 10. You do seem to be a natural at this spinning world we all live in.
Good Job,
Jack

[John Keeton]

Thanks for taking the time to comment on this piece - again! Hope you don't get worn out with it, but as it progresses, your input is important. I just haven't developed enough skill and feel for the proportions to pull this off on my own, and I have the highest regard for the work all of you do.

I will turn another finial in walnut - perhaps a couple, and take them to a finish to make sure that the color still compliments the piece. And, if it doesn't bore you to death, I may post another pic or two. Probably will wait until I part off the HF, and go ahead with a pedestal to get your input before permanently affixing anything. I hope to be able to remove the tenon/foot such that the piece can be used with/without a pedestal depending on the "look" achieved either way.

Your comments on that arrangement will probably be sought, as well.

Curt and Steve, I really appreciate your input on the impact of the finial - pretty much what I had determined, but unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20!!:o I am still not sure on overall height, and may try another of similar height, but slimmer (it should "appear" taller), and then do one 2/3 of the height of this one, but slimmer, as well.

Scott, I may turn a short stubby finial, as well, just to see what it does.

Jack, this will be piece #10 if I don't destroy it somehow along the way!!:eek: Disaster lurks at every turn!

[Steve Schlumpf]

John, I wish you luck in finding a form that you like for the finial. There are a number of great turners on this site - but unless they have a photo gallery - it is hard for folks to locate their work.

One of my favorite turners is Travis Stinson - he was the king of hollow forms when I first started turning. Anyway, here is one example of his work that actually seems somewhat fitting for what you are turning. I offer this only as something to help kick-start your imagination.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55554

[Roland Martin]

John, your talents are simply amazing, my God! I really don't have much to add for suggestions, I think that all the input you've gotten will pull you through to the finish line, in first place obviously. You are certainly an inspiration to rookies like myself.
There's nothing like this forum to help you comfortably move forward is there?
Have fun John.

[Tony De Masi]

John, as with most others I am very impressed with what you have accomplished in such a short time. I love the piece too. You have taken on some turning challenges that some folks who have been turning for some time have not accepted yet. Now for a critique. IF you want a finial then I will agree with Curt and Steve and Ken and go for a thinner finial, with the ball at a lower point. BUT, I'm not sure I would do a finial on this piece. There is so much going on with just the burl of the wood, then add the natural edge, and it looks stunning. I may be tempted to not have the finial compete for attention with the rest of the piece and try to dress up the opening with a collar. JMO

Tony

[John Keeton]

Steve, thanks for the link!! Great piece, and BTW, I do appreciate your previous direction to the Articles/Reviews forum. Fantastic source of information that I had not yet reviewed. Loved your article on HF turning, albeit a little late for me on this one! Travis' article on collars was informative, as well. Thought about one for this piece, but my 50mm jaws won't go down small enough to use his method of turning a collar. Sounds like another excuse for more toys!

The Stinson piece is beautiful, and has a lot more upright appearance, but still a great piece for some inspiration. I may play some with that form of finial, as well - kind of neat getting back to some spindle turning! It is amazing the difference in technique - I had some difficulty when I first started on the finial getting back into the "feel" of the spindle gouge.

Toni, just saw your post on the collar. I did consider one, but just couldn't figure any method of turning it with the tools I have. Probably could figure out a way, if I just gave it some innovative thought. May have to consider that as an option. Long as I don't use glue yet, anything is a possibility!!

Roland, thanks for the comments. I still consider myself as a real newbie at this, and my worst fault is trying to move ahead too quickly. I am finding that going slower on this, and taking the time to consider each piece from a design standpoint, is much better - albeit very difficult to do!

[charlie knighton]

very nice ...

[Brian Brown]

Official Announcement! The vortex will no longer be called the vortex. It will now be refered to as the JKV, or John Keeton Vortex. This honor is bestowed for John's record breaking fastest deepest ever fall into the vortex! :D

Very nice piece John. I agree with the finial comments for narower, and more delicate, and maybe taller. As for color, I like it natural. Great piece, and congrats on the JKV thing!

[Don Orr]

This is easily the fastest abduction by the vortex I have seen. John, for a flatboarder, you are making a lot of us turners look pretty bad. I've been turning a while and would be hard pressed to do anywhere near as well as you are already doing. Your forms are excellent ! As for your skills not being there yet, you are just plain wrong. You may not have the experience, but you have the skills and more importantly the eye for shape, form, and proportion.

I'm not going to critique your work because you have already received good feedback. You have done your own assessment as well. I look forward to seeing the finished product.

Strong work all around !

[steven carter]

John,

I really like what you have done to this piece. Great job on hollowing. My thought is that if you are not going to permanently attach the finial, why not make more than one, and then change them out for some variety, maybe as the seasons change. I would like to see what the holly would look like, as well as something ebonized. With any of them though I agree with less height and slimmer. You might want to make some models of various height and shape, they could always be used in future work, so save any that you decide not to use.


Steve

[Gary Chester]

Amazing work John. I agree that the finial is too fat, here's another thought... FWIW

What about going the other direction with the finial, maybe not a finial at all but just a cover with a ball on top, like a very small sauce pan lid. :confused: incense cover? :confused: not sure how to describe it...

You would still get the accent of a "finial" but not overpower that amazing piece of wood.

Just thinking out loud...

[David E Keller]

Well, ten straight great pieces ruins my beginner's luck theory:D

That is such a pretty piece of wood, and I think you've done a wonderful job with it. I'm not sure what I would do from here. Part of me wants a fairly tall foot and longer, thinner finial. Part of me want to see a smallish foot with just a collar.

My original advice was to continue on to a natural edge bowl, so I've not given you a single decent idea yet.

One thought on the finial would be to incorporate a captured ball made from the maple burl cutoff.

Anxious to see the finished piece, and I'd love to hear how you went about hollowing this(tooling, technique, etc).

[Jeff Nicol]

John, I see the coaching is going well on your end. I knew you had it in you to get it done! You did not even need the new video I made, so maybe it will go into the archives for a later release. Great job and keep up the great work, you are no longer a novice, but a semi seasoned highly skilled turner!

Jeff

[John Keeton]

Thanks, again, for all the kind comments. Don Orr and Brian Brown, the vortex cannot be given full credit for my "abduction!!" I was literally SHOVED into the spinning demon by a "well-meaning" bunch of creekers, all the while they were laughing some strange laugh...... It all happened so quick, memory fades......

Well, I haven't had a chance to try more finials yet, though I did scrounge around at the barn and brought down a 4x4 of walnut for some stock. I did the HF sanded. It is not perfect, but as good as I could get without risking breaking the rim. I applied another coat of BLO, and a couple coats of shellac to both the HF and the first finial to get a clear idea of color of the walnut finished.

And, most importantly, I severed the HF from the tenon in one piece!!

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It does sit flat, and seems it would work even without the pedestal. But, I want to try one to get your thoughts on that idea.

I think the color of the walnut finished still works. I did hold the holly up against the HF, and it is just way too light - nearly white. It just didn't do it for me. My wife agrees that black would work, but I think she favors the natural walnut look.

Ken F. had asked what she thought, and I have had a hard time getting a definitive opinion from her on this "artsy" piece. In truth, I don't believe it is her thing, but she knows that I kind of like it. So, I get those kind of supportive comments that say "Honey, I know you like it, so I like it, too!";)

She
One thought on the finial would be to incorporate a captured ball made from the maple burl cutoff.

Anxious to see the finished piece, and I'd love to hear how you went about hollowing this(tooling, technique, etc).David, great thought, and I may try this!

For hollowing, I used Jeff Nicol's tool he made for me. I have nothing to compare it with, but it seemed to work fine. I think if one were to do a wider piece, ultimately a swan neck tool might work better. But, I was very pleased with the way this went - a lot of work, took a lot of breaks, but it went better than expected. Steve Schlumpf was a big help on the hollowing thing, and gave me some very good tips and info, and as mentioned, his tutorial in the Articles forum was very helpful, though I admit I was pretty far along with this before seeing that.


What about going the other direction with the finial, maybe not a finial at all but just a cover with a ball on top...Gary, I may turn one of these, as well, just to get opinions.

I will post updated pics to get some input - after getting some of this spindle work done, and BEFORE GLUE.

[MIKE E BEE]

Hey John,

Wow, Fantastic work on this one. Amazing that this your first hollow form. Very creative on the natural edge. To my eye the finial looks fine but I am only working on my 7th or 8th bowl and I have yet to even make a finial or a hollow form so its not really my place to comment. I love the piece and look forward to seeing the final version no matter which way you go with the finial. Great Stuff!!

[Brian Effinger]

John, this is coming along nicely.

I think either the natural walnut or black "ebony" would look good. As for the pedestal, I think you should try mocking up a few. Try different designs (although I'd keep it simple), as well as different heights. I'm thinking a pedestal about the same height as the finial would look good, but I really need to see it. Maybe make one short, one tall and one in between.

Just my 2 cents.

Brian

[John Keeton]

As for the pedestal, I think you should try mocking up a few. Try different designs (although I'd keep it simple), as well as different heights. I'm thinking a pedestal about the same height as the finial would look good, but I really need to see it. Maybe make one short, one tall and one in between. BrianSounds like the army, dig a hole over there, one here, and a couple over there. Sarge will say which he likes best, and then you can fill all of them in!!:D:D Big order there, Brian, but I will try my best.

Thanks, Mike, for the comments and for taking the time to look.

[Terry Murphy]

Very good job. Thank you for sharing.

Terry

[Rob Cunningham]

John, fantastic work on the HF. I don't have any opinion on the finial since I've never done one. I do think the HF looks good without a pedestal.

[Bernie Weishapl]

John that is a beautiful piece just as it is. The BLO really made it stand out. Really well done.

[John Keeton]

Turned another finial, and took David Keller's suggestion to capture a piece of the burl. This finial is considerably smaller in mass, and shorter, than the first one, although the pics do not seem to depict that so much. It actually looks much more to scale in person.
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Finish at this point is still just the BLO and shellac. Poly has not been applied yet.

A pedestal is on the joblist for today. What say you now?

[Steve Schlumpf]

Excellent finial John! Nice detail work without being overly ornate! The captured burl really adds to the overall look!

I wouldn't worry about scale just yet as everything will change with the addition of a pedestal. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

[Ken Glass]

John,
Now your talking! This finial is a huge improvement over the previous one. It does capture the burl in the piece and its proportion to the piece it is much better. I think you have created a winner with this remake. Very well done!

[Baxter Smith]

Much nicer shape to the finial by lowering the center of mass and like the burl in it as well. My eye is still drawn to the finial but that may change with adding the pedestal. Looking forward to seeing it on the pedestal!

[Gary Chester]

Yup, I like that one.

Looks like you posted at 4:44 AM... have you slept since you started this piece???:confused: Better take a nap before you start the base.:D

[Ted Calver]

Now you're talking John! Very nice!!

[David E Keller]

Wow... I really like the new finial. The size seems more proportional and the added 'burl pearl' sort of lightens the finial further. The walnut color seems to perfectly mirror the spalt lines along the natural edge.

Looking forward to seeing how the piece looks with a base... Although, it could stand alone just the way it is now.

I really like this ongoing thread... I've learned a lot just from reading the suggestions of others. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

[Mark Hubl]

"Well, we're waiting!" - Judge Smails:Caddyshack

But seriously, I think this finial works better with the piece. Can't wait to see the pedestal. Good work John, you are truly cranking it.

[Michael Jasani]

Very nice work John! I am already visulazing the finished product and I know its going to be marvelous! Great job.