Event Security - How Safe Are We?

[Belinda Barfield]

This past weekend I attended an event with 7,999 other people. The weather was really nasty so many attendees entered the facility through a hotel connector, rather than the front entrance. 8,000 people, one metal detector. Needless to say, funneling that many bodies through one detector slowed things a bit. So, we're getting close to showtime and a security office walks down the line of people announcing that if anyone has a pocket knife or camcorder it will be confiscated and disposed of, not returned. No problem, I don't have either. Five minutes later, so as not to delay the start of the show, security decided that anyone not carrying a bag didn't have to go through the metal detector. :confused: I was carrying a purse. I waited my turn, handed my purse to the security person and went through the detector. The security person poked around in my purse and handed it back.

Long story longer, I returned to my hotel room and later that evening was looking for something that had disappeared into that blackhole that exists at the bottom of a purse. What did I find? My knife. :eek: I forgot it was in the bottom of the purse (lot of good it does me, huh?). That just made me think about how easy it would have been for someone that posed a danger to get through that security checkpoint.

Oh, and I don't carry a knife for protection, just convenience in cutting the occasional piece of wrapping twine or tape.

[Rod Sheridan]

Belinda, I guess I view event security a little differently.

In my opinion a knife of course can be used as a weapon, just like a knitting needle, or a pen.

Those are "up close and personal" sort of weapons, which you can't really do much about. Once someone is that close to you, they could simply physically assault and kill you.


Personally in a large crowd I worry more about fire and panic situations, those are the statistically large killers of people in groups.

Regards, Rod.

[Belinda Barfield]

Belinda, I guess I view event security a little differently.

In my opinion a knife of course can be used as a weapon, just like a knitting needle, or a pen.

Those are "up close and personal" sort of weapons, which you can't really do much about. Once someone is that close to you, they could simply physically assault and kill you.


Personally in a large crowd I worry more about fire and panic situations, those are the statistically large killers of people in groups.

Regards, Rod.

You are absolutely right Rod. I guess the point I was trying to make, but didn't do very well, was that if the person checking my purse overlooked a knife, what else was overlooked. It would have been just as easy for me to walk in with a pistol if that had been my intention.

After I was seated I thought to myself, I could have had two sticks of dynamite, a detonator, and a pint of moonshine in that purse and it wouldn't have been discovered. (okay, I know nothing about explosives so don't point out that this wouldn't have worked!)

[Chuck Wintle]

This past weekend I attended an event with 7,999 other people. The weather was really nasty so many attendees entered the facility through a hotel connector, rather than the front entrance. 8,000 people, one metal detector. Needless to say, funneling that many bodies through one detector slowed things a bit. So, we're getting close to showtime and a security office walks down the line of people announcing that if anyone has a pocket knife or camcorder it will be confiscated and disposed of, not returned. No problem, I don't have either. Five minutes later, so as not to delay the start of the show, security decided that anyone not carrying a bag didn't have to go through the metal detector. :confused: I was carrying a purse. I waited my turn, handed my purse to the security person and went through the detector. The security person poked around in my purse and handed it back.

Long story longer, I returned to my hotel room and later that evening was looking for something that had disappeared into that blackhole that exists at the bottom of a purse. What did I find? My knife. :eek: I forgot it was in the bottom of the purse (lot of good it does me, huh?). That just made me think about how easy it would have been for someone that posed a danger to get through that security checkpoint.

Oh, and I don't carry a knife for protection, just convenience in cutting the occasional piece of wrapping twine or tape.
No one is really ever totally safe IMHO. They(the bad guys) can always find a way to exploit a weakness in the system, any system. That said my problem is manpower hired to carry out the intent of the state. Frequently they are poorly trained, of questionable intellect and sometimes criminal in nature.

[mike holden]

Belinda,
The unpleasant truth about safety is this: If someone wants to kill you, and is willing to give up their life in the process; there is nothing you can do to stop them.

All the security measures are so that venues can cover their behinds from lawsuits.

Even the secret service knows that if someone wants to kill the president, there is little they can do to prevent it.

Mike

[Mitchell Andrus]

When airports started in with the 'no sharp anything' rules, my brother-in-law (the pilot of the 767 he was about to board) had to give up a very small pair of scissors left in his carry-on by my sister months earlier. The security guard held up the tiny scissors and gave him a lecture about how nobody could be trusted anymore, weapons on the loose.... and threw the scissors in the trash.

My BIL asked the guard how he felt about the fire ax in the cockpit. I'll assume the irony escaped him, rules are rules.

Yea, security does seem to be a bit inconsistent and full of holes sometimes. This planet is too crowded and it's getting smaller every day.
.

[Mike Wilkins]

You did not say you did'nt know anything about moonshine.

[Mike Cutler]

I personally do not feel that I am any safer now than 10 years ago. It's a ll a show.

Now if you had two sticks of dynamite, blasting caps and Moonshine, well I'd toss the dynamite and blasting caps away and start passing the 'shine around. You'd have lots of friends soon.
I am one of the guys the US Goverment invested resources in to teach the use of explosives.

[Belinda Barfield]

You did not say you did'nt know anything about moonshine.

I know a little about mooonshine . . . it burns real purty! :D


I personally do not feel that I am any safer now than 10 years ago. It's a ll a show.

Now if you had two sticks of dynamite, blasting caps and Moonshine, well I'd toss the dynamite and blasting caps away and start passing the 'shine around. You'd have lots of friends soon.
I am one of the guys the US Goverment invested resources in to teach the use of explosives.

I agree Mike that it did all seem to be a show, at least for this event.

'Shine will make you lots of friends, but they tend to be right ornery ones before the night is over!

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm with you Belinda, I went with my father to a Department of Defense Open House on Andrews Air Force Base a couple of years ago. You were shuttled in, but before that, you had to go through metal detectors and security all run by the military.

My Dad goes through and they stop him for a money clip we gave him as kids that had a tiny fold out knife on it. They took it from him and dropped it into the trash can they were collecting them in. He was upset that his gift from his kids some 30 years ago was now sitting in a trash can and he couldn't do anything about it to get it back.

So I'm in the lane next to him, I forgot I have a decent size pocket knife in my pocket. I empty my pockets, the guy looks at the knife and hands it back to me and let's me through.

So my walmart pocket knife with a 2 1/2" blade walks me through, my Dad's money clip with a 1" knife on it is thrown in the trash.

[Belinda Barfield]

My Dad goes through and they stop him for a money clip we gave him as kids that had a tiny fold out knife on it. They took it from him and dropped it into the trash can they were collecting them in. He was upset that his gift from his kids some 30 years ago was now sitting in a trash can and he couldn't do anything about it to get it back.

A lot of the confiscated items end up on E-Bay, at least those taken in by the TSA.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-02-06-confiscate-usat_x.htm

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Just for the record,

it is a matter of individual airports policy as to what happens when you are caught with those devices that can be confiscated.

I have a manager who is a West Point graduate. When he got recalled to active duty, I turned 2 pens that were desert camo and would fit the pen pockets in general purpose coveralls they wear. He gave everyone of the field engineers working for him a mini-Leatherman for Christmas just before he left for active duty. I carried this leatherman until his return from the Middle East just for sentimental reasons.

I would sooner walk through the airport in my skivvies than without my pocket knife. Yes...I realize it would be ugly but this old farm boy has resolved a lot of issues with a standard pocket knife.

I flew into Bloomington, IL airport to visit my MIL who lives nearby. When I departed a week later...sure enough..I'd checked my baggage and still had that mini-leatherman in my pocket. So...the TSA agent walked me down the airport. There was a wooden stand....with postage paid envelopes and a sign...I put my knife into padded envelope...addressed it...dropped it into the locked box and it arrived 10 days or so later at my home.

That was cool!

[Randal Stevenson]

I agree with the sentiment, Security is all about "feeling good".

In reality, the UPS truck, that gets to stop next to government buildings.......... NO, NO one would ever consider killing a driver, if they were going to use the truck as a bomb.:rolleyes:

The "security" at the courthouse (sheriff's outfit), who couldn't secure something 1/2" from her, (said to put it back in my pocket) that was required to go through the detector? (how safe the courts? remember, these deal with people who know how to make shivs, out of combs)

The airports, who take your toothpaste, as it might contain bomb material, yet they don't blow it up!

Etc......

[Montgomery Scott]

My dad infrequently tests airport security. He's been trained how to avoid detection of certain objects. He's gotten through security with knives of various sizes and even a gun going through the x-ray machine without being detected.

The only proven effective way of deterring terrorists is to use the same methods El Al employs, but won't unless something worse happens.

[Rod Sheridan]

There was a wooden stand....with postage paid envelopes and a sign...I put my knife into padded envelope...addressed it...dropped it into the locked box and it arrived 10 days or so later at my home.

That was cool!

That's a great way to deal with it, you don't lose objects of sentimental value.

Somebody with some smarts thought of that.

I always carry a small penknife, maybe a 3" blade, and always have to double check that I've not left it in my pocket when I meant to put it in checked luggage.

regards, Rod.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rod,

I've lost count of the number of knives I've donated over the last few years.

[Jim Rimmer]

The only proven effective way of deterring terrorists is to use the same methods El Al employs, but won't unless something worse happens.
El Al is often held up as an example of how to do security right and if the US had only one airport and one airline, we could prbably do the same thing. However, with multiple airports and heaven knows how many airlines operating just in the US, it's a little different.

IMHO, security measures are not carried out to prevent evil intent; they are just to show that SOMETHING is being done.

[Mike Cutler]

A lot of the confiscated items end up on E-Bay, at least those taken in by the TSA.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-02-06-confiscate-usat_x.htm


Wow!

That is totally despicable. I might feel better if the items were sold to benefit a charity, but to sell them for strictly profit is reprehensible.
I'm very disappoionted to learn this. I'm going to stick my head back in the sand now.:(

[Matt Meiser]

You used to be able to carry a Leatherman pre-9/11. I had one in my laptop bag for years for getting into control panels and such.

I've also lost a number of the keychain knives to the TSA, and more than once, not until the return trip. I just gave up. I've realized a few times I forgot to pull out my quart bag and not been stopped. Since I got it last summer, they stop me to check my CPAP machine every time. I asked a TSA agent and he said they require 100% checks on them. But they almost never check my laptop or any of the other stuff in my laptop bag.

[Dave Anderson NH]

My story from years ago.

In 1979 when I was fit, svelte, and in good physical condition I went out to the Tetons in Wyoming on a rockclimbing and mountaineering trip. This was shortly after one of the first waves of aircraft hijackings. When it came time to return home via air, I took my 50 meter (165ft) nylon climbing rope and attached it to my day pack as carry on luggage in order to meet the number of bags and weight limits. At check-in I was told that it was not allowed for security reason and I hurriedly repacked my gear to put the rope inside a bag. After sitting on the plane for about 10 minutes waiting for the plane to move away from the gate and take off a buddy of mine comes down the aisle. He's carrying his rucksack with a mountaineering iceaxe attached to the back. He had been in a different baggage and check-in line. Apparently there were no hard and fast rules and the clerks were left to use their own judgement. Oh, my buddy was about 6'3", long hair and heavily bearded, and was wearing a bush jacket. A terrorist looking guy if I ever saw one. He was a Phd IC designer from IBM in New York.

[Belinda Barfield]

Wow!

That is totally despicable. I might feel better if the items were sold to benefit a charity, but to sell them for strictly profit is reprehensible.
I'm very disappoionted to learn this. I'm going to stick my head back in the sand now.:(

Sorry to be the one to break the news Mike.

Ever wonder what happens to unclaimed baggage?

http://www.unclaimedbaggage.com/

[John Coloccia]

Every time I fly, I'm always surprised at what I find in my carryon when I get home. There's always a small tube of toothpaste, a pocket knife, cigarette lighter etc... I don't mind increased security precautions. What I mind is that we do it for show, and that really infuriates me. They spend my money, waste my time and then don't do their job. If they're going to make me wait in line for 30 minutes, confiscating nail files and small pocket knives, then they'd gosh dang better find the travel toothpaste and cigarette lighter I forgot in my jacket pocket. Seriously. I get through every single time with this stuff to the point that I hardly even bother checking my pockets anymore. I personally think it's kind of stupid to make you put this stuff in baggies and to take away nail files, and they probably feel the same way so they're not taking it seriously either. OK, fine. Just stop doing it, stop wasting everyone's time, and stop making us look like idiots by showing the world that we can't get a simple airport security check right.

So I don't think we're particularly safe, in any sense of the word and I guess my point is that I don't think increased security will make us safe, except perhaps on airplanes and things like that. To get there, we need Israeli style checkpoints. Are we ready for that? As for everything else, if the Israeli's can't keep their cities safe from terror attacks, what hope do WE have? The Israeli's have lived with this for decades, and they're the toughest SOBs on the planet when it comes to security, and they can't stop it either.

And I guess that's the point of terror attacks. It's not the attack itself so much as the chilling effect it has when they're NOT attacking... which is why I don't think about it and I don't change my lifestyle one iota, just to spite the filth that do things like this.

There's a solution, but I don't think it's more security but I don't think I have the stomach for it, and I'm pretty sure it's morally the wrong thing to do to.

[John Coloccia]

Sorry to be the one to break the news Mike.

Ever wonder what happens to unclaimed baggage?

http://www.unclaimedbaggage.com/

"Lost treasures from around the world"

ROFL

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here's my take on the subject:

1. There has to be a "show" or attempt at security. First, you have the average persaon who would be upset and calling their Congressman today if there wasn't somebody there. This also probably does have a small deterant effect.

2. You can't compare what the Israeli's go through daily to this country. No offense but we aren't surrounded like that country is. Just not a fair comparison. Besides......

3. Take a look at the comments in this thread. Folks whining about having to take 30 minutes going through security checks. I don't think the average person has the patience to go through a real security check. The society who has to carry a cell phone/blackberry to multi-task while brushing their teeth etc....nope they don't have the patience.

4. Real security checks by highly trained professionals? Now that will cost money and raise the price of airline tickets. Nope. John Q. Cititzen ain't gonna put up with that. We'd have threads in the Off Topic Forum ranting over the increased prices of airline tickets.

5. Scanners....now they have some pretty amazing technological advances and machines out there but....when they make mistakes or if they showed human anatomy.....someone would find an imaginative lawyer and boy we can make some money off this protecting personal rights to privacy.....nope this ain't gonna work....

6. Even with "Serious" security measures....there will always be someone or some group with some intelligence, education and a little imagination who could find away to circumvent those measures. There is no such thing as perfect security.

[John Coloccia]

Here's my take on the subject:

1. There has to be a "show" or attempt at security. First, you have the average persaon who would be upset and calling their Congressman today if there wasn't somebody there. This also probably does have a small deterant effect.

2. You can't compare what the Israeli's go through daily to this country. No offense but we aren't surrounded like that country is. Just not a fair comparison. Besides......

3. Take a look at the comments in this thread. Folks whining about having to take 30 minutes going through security checks. I don't think the average person has the patience to go through a real security check. The society who has to carry a cell phone/blackberry to multi-task while brushing their teeth etc....nope they don't have the patience.

4. Real security checks by highly trained professionals? Now that will cost money and raise the price of airline tickets. Nope. John Q. Cititzen ain't gonna put up with that. We'd have threads in the Off Topic Forum ranting over the increased prices of airline tickets.

5. Scanners....now they have some pretty amazing technological advances and machines out there but....when they make mistakes or if they showed human anatomy.....someone would find an imaginative lawyer and boy we can make some money off this protecting personal rights to privacy.....nope this ain't gonna work....

6. Even with "Serious" security measures....there will always be someone or some group with some intelligence, education and a little imagination who could find away to circumvent those measures. There is no such thing as perfect security.

Ken, I agree with most of what you said, and I didn't mean to imply that we had the same situation as the Israelis. All I meant is that they're the best in the world at it and they're not even 100% safe, which is exactly your point 6. We're really quite wide open at the moment, and as you've said (or implied at least) our culture really isn't prepared or even willing to make significant changes to improve our security. Honestly, I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. Personally, I'd rather live with risk than live in a cocoon. I guess there's a balance somewhere.

I personally don't mind standing in line for 30 minutes. The part I mind is that they're not really seriously looking. I'd much prefer it if they went back to normal, didn't tell me what they're looking for, and just left it to the judgement of a well trained security team. Keep me on my toes. I'm OK with that.

[Mitchell Andrus]

3. Take a look at the comments in this thread. Folks whining about having to take 30 minutes going through security checks. I don't think the average person has the patience to go through a real security check. The society who has to carry a cell phone/blackberry to multi-task while brushing their teeth etc....nope they don't have the patience.



The last time I went from a car to a plane in less than 1 hour was in 1978.

The real crush to our patience is this... Most airports have been designed to hold about 30 minutes to an hour's worth of passengers. Arrive, check in, get on the plane....less than an hour. 30 to 40 years old now, Newark, JFK, LAX and many more are now at 2X or 3X their original design capacity. Many are land-locked or budget starved and haven't been updated in decades. Newark is a DUMP.

When it takes 1 extra hour to get on a plane you are doubling the number of people in the airport. 2 extra hours, triple. At times there is no place to sit, not enough restaurant seating, no room to create a 'Disney line' for 1 or 2 hours worth of departure traffic.

For some this is not only inconvenient to spend so much time at a cramped airport, it's uncomfortable, especially for the elderly and those with kids.

Patience we've got. It's someplace to sit and wait that we need. Waiting at the airport pre and post a security checkpoint wasn't designed into the plan.

But..... it's still better than going to Chicago by stage coach.
.

[Jim Rimmer]

My wife's cousin came to visit last week and one of their excursions was to go to Galveston Island and take the Bolivar Ferry (free ride; takes about 20 minutes and has great scenery. If you come to Houston, try it) over to the peninsula and look at the Ike impact and then come back. While they were waiting in line on the way back a young Coast Guard Petty Officer pulled them and the car out of line for a random check. Imagine this: two 60+ caucasian women standing beside the car while CG checked it for bombs. :D:D Can't blame the Coastie - he was doing what he was told but what a waste of time and effort for all involved. LOML and cousin laughed about it and now have a funny story for family gatherings about the dangerous looking grannies.

[David G Baker]

Is there a better way to commit an act of terrorism than to use the least likely people to commit the act?

[Bryan Morgan]

All this "security" just makes me feel more unsafe. I'd rather live free and happy and be blown up by a terrorist at a young age than have to deal with all this suspicion and nonsense for many years. I worry more about the "security" folks than any "terrorist".

[Chris Kennedy]

An increased security presence does not directly translate to higher price airline tickets. It used to be that the airport was responsible for security, which would pass the costs on to the airline. Since airport security is now federalized under the TSA, this is supported through taxes, not ticket prices (this isn't to say the taxes and fees on airline tickets won't go up).

Personally, I think that American security relies too much on technology -- the machine will find the offending item, not the security officer. You are instructed how to place your items so that the scanner can find the contraband. And we are carefully scanning shoes because someone tried to use a shoe to bomb a plane.

I have literally flown all around the world, and in many countries, the security at the airport has been a true police force. I felt far more secure at those times. You set off a metal detector, you get searched. They find the problem rather than have you remove your belt and see if it still goes off. Maybe it was your watch. Try again. -- Waste of time.

Cheers,

Chris

[Chuck Wintle]

All this "security" just makes me feel more unsafe. I'd rather live free and happy and be blown up by a terrorist at a young age than have to deal with all this suspicion and nonsense for many years. I worry more about the "security" folks than any "terrorist".

There are many that want to harm you because of your way of life. It's true what you say about security people, unmotivated state employees who worry more about senority that catching any real bad guys.

[Belinda Barfield]

So, is part of the solution to put a well trained, professional force in place to screen people?

[Dan Mages]

Unless you are hiring Mossad or El Al to cover your security needs, then it is just keeping the honest people honest.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......You can't compare what the Israeli's go through daily to this country. No offense but we aren't surrounded like that country is. Just not a fair comparison.........

Good point, Ken

I remember reading an article some years ago - 6 or 7 - on border security, etc. They talked with an unnamed (of course) retired former high-ranking officer from Mossad. His observation went something like this: "If the USA wants its borders to be absolutely secure, that can be done, and I can tell you exactly how to do it. But, it will never happen, because the draconian measures would be completely opposite to the personal freedoms Americans - rightly - value so much. So, there is a trade-off between 'doable' and 'tolerable'."

[Kent A Bathurst]

Unless you are hiring Mossad or El Al to cover your security needs, then it is just keeping the honest people honest.

I'm not sure I can buy into that position, Dan. I understand what you are saying, and can appreciate the frustration that kind of seeps through, however:

The corollary to that statement is that we can pull all the security measures at airports and see no effect. When they do that, there will be plenty of take-off slots available out of JFK, because virtually no one would get on a plane. I spent 10 years travelling 45+ weeks per year, and I ain't getting on a plane under those conditions, and I'd bet you wouldn't let your family get on one either.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here's the thing....


Security ...or a secure feeling...is subjective....what makes me feel secure....may make you scared as can be......it's subjective...it varies from person to person....

I'll give you a beautiful example that I personally witnessed.

I worked with a husband and wife...both were doctors...MDs...She a neurologist....he a radiologist....she was raised in Africa by missionary parents...they met in while doing the residencies in the US Navy.

Every other year they would take a months long vacation and go to Africa and provide free medical treatment. One year on their way back, while changing planes in a major African airport...they got caught in a coup detat. Crowds of non-uniformed people carrying automatic and semi-automatic weapons.....doing the type of violent stuff you would imagine.

A few days later back home, I ran into him in the radiology department of a major medical center. He is an avid hunter and gun owner. He proceeded to tell me the story and how badly he wanted one of his pistols or rifles so he might defend himself and his wife.

2 minutes later I ran into her outside the CT scan suite and she repeated the story and told how badly her husband wished he had one of his guns and how relieved she was that he didn't!:confused:

So .....feeling secure ....what constitutes security...is subjective.....

It is a complex problem that won't ever be perfect as long as their are intelligent people with a cause.

The best you can hope for is to attempt to provide some kind of rudimentary screening and security.to satisfy the masses and possibly deter the less well planned individuals that would try to do harm. If no attempt was made, I suspect the airline travel would decrease immensly.

[Belinda Barfield]

Here's the thing....


Security ...or a secure feeling...is subjective....what makes me feel secure....may make you scared as can be......it's subjective...it varies from person to person....


This is going a little off course, but you reminded me of something Ken. I was friends with a couple, both physicians. The wife grew up in an apartment in Tel Aviv. When I knew them they lived in a very large home on several acres. She confided in me one day that she never felt secure in the house and was almost always afraid when home alone because there were no comforting noises from other apartments, and the house had so many doors and windows.

[Dan Mages]

I'm not sure I can buy into that position, Dan. I understand what you are saying, and can appreciate the frustration that kind of seeps through, however:

The corollary to that statement is that we can pull all the security measures at airports and see no effect. When they do that, there will be plenty of take-off slots available out of JFK, because virtually no one would get on a plane. I spent 10 years travelling 45+ weeks per year, and I ain't getting on a plane under those conditions, and I'd bet you wouldn't let your family get on one either.

If you ever have a chance to fly on El Al, you will know why. The security is one of the best in the world. When you show up at the airport, you are interviewed by a member of the security team before you are given your boarding pass. The more fustrated you are with the questioning, the longer it will take. The security is tested constantly. One slip up and the security agent is fired. If you check luggage, it goes through a decompression chamber to simulate it being at flight altitude to detonate any potential explosives with pressure switches. Your luggage also has the likelyhood of being hand searched. When you go though the security checkpoint, expect to go through it twice, it happens. Once you are past the security checkpoint, you will see lots of uniformed and not see the plain clothed agents. You will never see your pilot. He is the first one on and the last one off the plane and has a separate entrance. There are two armored locked doors to the cockpit. The first cannot be opened unless the second is closed. The second cannot be opened without the pilot or the first officers permission. BTW... your pilot is a former Israeli Air Force pilot. There will be several air marshals on the plane. And that floor below you... its armored in case of an explosion...

I can go on and on, but basically, it is a very well belt and suspender system that is the model many countries try to copy. Besides the hassle of getting to the gate, most of the security is behind the scenes.

Dan

[Tom Winship]

One of my friends commutes and works in Houston. Recently, he had to go to the county courthouse there. (He has a concealed carry permit). When he started through security, and was emptying his pockets, the security guard (a county deputy sheriff) looked at his knife and then his concealed handgun and stated "Mister, I don't know how they let you do this in your county courthouse, but here we don't. So get your stuff, go back out to wherever you tied your horse, put these items in you saddle bags, and then you can come back in and take care of your business". It was so much funnier when you know the guy.

Tom

[Bryan Morgan]

There are many that want to harm you because of your way of life. It's true what you say about security people, unmotivated state employees who worry more about senority that catching any real bad guys.

There's always somebody who wants to hurt somebody else. Its been that way since the dawn of time. I'm not going to give up my quality of life worrying about them.

[Bryan Morgan]

If no attempt was made, I suspect the airline travel would decrease immensly.

The only reason I don't fly is because I don't want to be harassed by government thugs. My grandfather taught be to rebel against those who demand "papers please!"

[Jeff Willard]

...and just left it to the judgement of a well trained security team.

I don't know where they're going to find them, or what they'd have to pay them if they do. I work in a retail food store that is in very close proximity to Reagan National Airport. Needless to say, we get a steady stream of blue shirts (TSA) in the store every day. Now I know that I'm leaving myself open to a royal flaming here, and I know that this doesn't apply to everybody that does this job. I'm certain that there are screeners that are very competent and qualified to do the job, but I never see them. The ones that I meet are, collectively, some of the most mush-headed people I have ever encountered. I don't think I'd trust them to tell me when it's safe to cross the street.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'd trust them to tell me when it's safe to cross the street.

Does anyone know if they are private employees or Federal employees? If the latter, they at least have to be citizens and have passed the civil servant's exam.
.

[Myk Rian]

I prefer taking the train to Denver, instead of flying. Sure, it takes 20 hours longer to get there, But I'm not searched down to my socks.

Different airport, different security. I've left Detroit with a couple small knives in my carry on, Denver caught, and stole them from me on the way home.

[David G Baker]

Don't know if it has been mentioned but if you want to take items with you that are forbidden to carry on, you can put many things in your checked baggage. There is a list of things that you can't put in your checked baggage but the list contains mostly things that a normal traveler would not travel with any way.

[Dave Schreib]

Unfortunately, I dont think all this security makes us any safer. Ban guns on planes, they bring box cutters. Ban box cutters, they put bombs in their shoes. Start checking shoes, they sew the explosives into their underwear. Start checking underwear and they will put it somewhere else.

I think the Israelis have it right. They screen the individual, not his stuff. The talk to him, look him in the eye. Ask follow up questions, check their bags, some more questions, etc etc. They look for nervousness, evasion, stories that dont make sense and yes, they profile. A lot's been written about that recently, you could find a lot through google.

It's expensive, intrusive, in many cases unconstitutional in the US, but effective.

[Bryan Morgan]

It's expensive, intrusive, in many cases unconstitutional in the US, but effective.

I'd rather just follow what Benjamin Franklin says and not give up my liberty for the illusion of safety. ;)

[Kent A Bathurst]

......If you ever have a chance to fly on El Al, you will know why. The security is one of the best in the world.....

But Dan - that is completely non-responsive.

Your comment, to which I replied , spoke to domestic security, not Israeli. Your premise was that domestic security was just for show. I in no way equated it to foreign programs, and I respectfully rejected your premise and its corollary that we should just stop. Changing the topic doesn't advance the discussion, it opens a new one, which is fine.

But doing that while ostensibly replying to me was like telling me that Wilt scored 100 points only because the Knicks laid down for him to promote the league, after I claimed Bill Russell was the best player ever. While both may (or may not) be true, the two are completely unrelated.

(And, besides, we all know the Knicks didn't perfect the art of laying down until after Dave DeBusschere and Willis Reed retired ;)).

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Again......security and the feeling of being secure is subjective....what makes you feel secure may not do anything for the masses.

Airline security...or the feeling of being secure has to be handled to make the masses feel secure.

The airlines have to sell a multitude of tickets not a few....

[Chuck Wintle]

Again......security and the feeling of being secure is subjective....what makes you feel secure may not do anything for the masses.

Airline security...or the feeling of being secure has to be handled to make the masses feel secure.

The airlines have to sell a multitude of tickets not a few....

Ken,

There are those who really want to inflict injury and death on western countries because of the way they are brought up....many brain-washed from a young age that the west is evil and must be eliminated. I don't think anyone will ever fell totally secure flying or even on the train...witness the suicide bombers of the tube in London a few years ago. I still say profiling is one of the best weapons against the threat...except it needs to be implements. The drones hired for airport screening are simply too stupid to catch anything.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Charles,

You will never be totally secure.

No country on earth is or will ever be totally secure.

My statement was just that we are all different people and as such we will all have different ideas as to what makes us as individuals feel secure.

In this thread some are saying that what we do makes them feel insecure .....some stating we are losing freedom by doing anything....

My point is that to do nothing that would make the masses.....not the individual...feel secure....would result in the masses not flying...and the airlines would go out of business and we would lose an expediant mode of travel.

Whether it is truly secure or a restriction on freedom doesn't matter to the airlines and or the government. The masses have to feel secure or they won't fly.

Can we be more secure? Obviously but that leads to a few more problems....

1. Improved security will cost more...period.....whether it's in taxes..which will eventually lead to increase airline tickets or in increased airline fares...does it matter? It will cost more and there are those who will argue against it. Point blank...in today's society.....if the job pays well, intelligent, dedicated, hardworking educated people will apply for those jobs. Improved security will cost more.

2. Improved security will take more time of the passengers for screening. Most people in today's society don't have the patience to put up with this.....we are talking about the multi-tasking society here.....I can't see it.

3. Some have already stated they don't fly because they feel they are being hassled by security at the airlines....imagine if the restrictions of personal freedoms are increased..... Profiling......sounds good until one of each group is involved as a terrorist. Then who do we profile? No....It's not right.

There will never be a perfect security system in any country on this earth.

Each country and society will have to decide what is right for them.

Security is subjective...what's right for me...may not be right for you. The best we can expect is a system that will leave the traveling masses confident enough in their safety to travel.

We have to realize .......that as an individual...I might be in the minority and therefore won't get my way....

You may also be in the minority....

Feeling secure is subjective......

JMHO

[Mitchell Andrus]

Again......security and the feeling of being secure is subjective....what makes you feel secure may not do anything for the masses.



Well, yes and no. Pre 9/11 we had to go through security and as slight as it was, it stopped hijackings to Cuba cold... no more guns on board, no more hijackings. Lack of imagination, allowed box cutters through. Now that we've stepped up from pre 2001 style scrutiny, we've yet to see a box cutter used.

No more guns, box cutters, base ball bats, mace, lighter fluid, shampoo on my flight. I not only FEEL safer, I AM safer.

This feeling of safety will, I admit, only get you so far though and I think this is what you mean Ken.... The fact that we NEED this kind of security highlights just how vulnerable we are, making us feel unsafe again.
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The point Mitchell...is that is how YOU feel...not necessarilty how I feel.....that's what subjectivity is....it's an individual feeling.


There is no right or wrong.....this isn't a test....


and we each have a right to have a opinion...they might be differing opinions...but we have that right.

[Norberto Coutinho]

A lot of the confiscated items end up on E-Bay, at least those taken in by the TSA.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-02-06-confiscate-usat_x.htm
.
Hi Belinda
Did you know Sandra Larson? If yes, tell her about this:cool:
.
http://cgi.ebay.com/If-U-KNO-SANDRA-LARSON-tell-her-I-found-her-SWISS-A-K_W0QQitemZ330371284010QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defau ltDomain_0?hash=item4ceba9bc2a

[Mike Henderson]

I used to travel to Israel on business. One time, coming back from Tel Aviv I was going through the regular questioning as part of security. In this trip, I was attending an IEEE meeting on wireless communications in the 2.4GHz band and the problems of interference from microwave units and other devices that operate in that band.

As part of the questioning by the security agent, she asked me why I was in Israel. I told her about the IEEE meeting. Then she asked me what we were discussing, so I told her it was problems of interference in the 2.4GHz band.

So then, she asks me, "What are the problems of interference in the 2.4GHz band?"

I'm sure she had no clue what the problems were but just wanted to see how I'd react. But it sure sets you back, trying to think how to explain some highly technical problem to a layman.

Mike

[Kent A Bathurst]

OK, OK - I'm resurrecting this old food fight. But - you have to give me a little credit: I'm handing the whipped cream pies to the folks opposite me (more or less). This is too good not to share.

My older brother has a few jillion hours at the pointy end of airplanes - first USAF, then commercial passenger planes. He just sent me this:

http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/a-new-logo-for-tsa-for-sure-a-new-smile/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tripso+%28Consumertraveler.co m%29

[Belinda Barfield]

Pretty funny Kent! Thanks for sharing.

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

He might have been a fellow woodworker and detected a hint of hickory, walnut, or cedar from your purse. And too, maybe you just didn't fit the profile of one who might pose a threat to security.

I, too have seen my share of careless searches and lately some excessive and needless ones too. We can only wonder what else went through that day!

[Van Huskey]

OK, OK - I'm resurrecting this old food fight. But - you have to give me a little credit: I'm handing the whipped cream pies to the folks opposite me (more or less). This is too good not to share.

My older brother has a few jillion hours at the pointy end of airplanes - first USAF, then commercial passenger planes. He just sent me this:

http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/a-new-logo-for-tsa-for-sure-a-new-smile/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tripso+%28Consumertraveler.co m%29


Funny, thanks for the smile.