Walnut Table Finish

[Bryan Wellman]

New here....first post. This project has been a bear to figure out and I finally found a forum with a finishing thread!! :)

We inherited my wifes grandparents' antique walnut dining room table they had in their basement. Everything I had done to it was going great until I got to the sides of the top. I want the sides to be dark like the original table was and the legs are. The problem is, the dark stain was not penatrating. No matter what I did, it would not bleed in like the rest of the wood. So out of desperation I layered the stain till it was like the legs and then poly'd it. Finished the top and thought I was going to be done till I bumped the side. It instantly bubbled the poly and now I can literally peel it off. I know it's from sitting on top of all that stain but I am now at a loss.

What would be the best finish to use in this scenario? Would a tinted shellac or varnish be the way to go? I can only assume this is what was on the table originally. I am trying to keep the beautiful walnut top a lighter shade and match the sides of the top with the rest of the table.

Here are pics of the legs and top(pre-poly).

[Neal Clayton]

bad news: the poly will probably have to go. i'd do my best to remove it entirely.

the original finish was probably just a wax on top of whatever they used for color (typically shellac in the old days). poly won't stick to the wax.

that's also why any stain you try won't penetrate.

yes shellac is appropriate if you need to touch the original finish up. not only authentic to the original finish but it will stick to anything so you don't have to worry about adhesion. either add a few completely new coats, or try to color match the old and blend it in with shellac dyed to match (more trial and error, a new coat is easier). shellac isn't like other varnishes commonly available, it dries very fast (you can recoat after ~5 minutes) and gets gummy if you overwork it, so play with it on some test boards to get the technique down. it's not difficult to apply, per se, just different. a stain pad with very light coats, never overlapping until it's dry, always using a clean part of the pad for a new coat, generally. if you're using a brush, a very fine haired natural bristle brush, saturate it, press/shake out the excess, then single long strokes with very light/no pressure. be very careful of runs, it's not as thick as newer varnishes either. try to work in such a way that the brush is running out of shellac when you get to the edges where runs can be an issue. don't worry if you miss a spot, just leave it rather than mess up the surrounding area, they'll all blend together eventually.

after you're satisfied with the coverage, buff it smooth, and apply whatever top coat you prefer (but not poly, or the antique furniture gods will smite you ;)).

if you want an easy to brush and hard finish on top in lieu of just shellac and wax, tung oil based varnishes like waterlox are a good choice. the color is similar to the color on it already, so it'll blend well even if your shellac coats aren't perfect, and levels very well. a retarded monkey could brush waterlox with good results. just use the same brush you used for the shellac (any natural china bristle brush marked "for oil paints") and it'll sort itself out as it dries. but you need a dewaxed shellac barrier coat, since again like the poly, it won't stick to the old wax.

that's the regimen i use on the vast majority of things i build to fit in with antiques in the same room...after the sealer, amber or garnet shellac, buff it smooth not being overly concerned with how the shellac looks but rather that it feels smooth, top with two coats of waterlox. this gives an antique waxed look, with the hard coat on top so it doesn't scratch/wear as easily. they have gloss, satin, or semi, whichever you prefer. it needs to be clean before the top coat. and not kinda clean, surgery clean. after the shellac'ing and buffing and sanding and whatever else you do, blow on it if you've got a compressor nozzle close by, then vacuum it, then tack cloth it. then put your top coat. any trace amounts of dust will turn into rough spots via a snowball effect.

[Scott Holmes]

Neal's advise is sound....

I would only suggest that you don't mix brushes between shellac and varnish.

I have dedicated varnish brushes $$$$$ and a couple of shellac brushes $$.

[Neal Clayton]

yea since i prefer satin rather than glossy finishes i don't bother with expensive varnish brushes ;). once satin cures it looks pretty even even if it's not perfectly so.

[Bryan Wellman]

OK.....what I did.

this table had been in their basement for more years than they remember. He polishes rocks, so it had huge boxes of rocks stacked on it. Needless to say, the felt table top pad had worked itself into the finish. The top was completely ruined. The legs and sides were beat up really bad.

I am a firm believer in keeping aged finishes, but I really had nothing to work with. Everyone thought I was crazy for trying.

The legs (as you can see) have a lot of detail and were eventually taken in to be dipped. Again.....not my best option, but they did an amazing job and I must say.....the legs turned out awesome. A few layers of dark walnut stain and many (probably 6-7) lightly sprayed layers of Minwax semi-gloss poly. As this will be a much used table when finished (and we are planning on starting a family soon) I didi want it to be well protected.

The top was stripped with regualr Zip-Strip. It was at this point I realized it was beautiful walnut veneer on top. The original dark (maybe a cordovan color that darken ALOT) finish didn't show any grain really. Knowing what I know now I guess this to be some kind of shellac that darkened alot over the years? Or would a varnish do the same thing?

Anyway. It was at this point that I went from simply trying to make an old beatup table usable to really knowing I had something amazing on my hands. And as I posted earlier....this spurred the two-tone effect that I really want to end up with.

I used the same dark walnut stain to try and darken the sides to match the legs. It wouldn't penetrate no matter what conditioner I used. I have now been told that it is very typical for this to happen since the old finishes would penetrate the wood so well. So in my naivete I sprayed the stain in layers, building up till the finish matched the legs. I waited a week thinking that it would dry enough and then I brushed/sprayed the entire top and sides. I was soo excited because it was looking amazing, but as I stated, then I bumped the side and started the instant realization that the poly/stain combo was not going to work. I am now looking to strip the whole top and start over.

So, starting from ground zero I am hoping to come up with the right combination to get what I am hoping to out of the finish. With what research I've done, would a tinted shellac be the best thing to build the deep dark sides up? Adding layers till I get the color I want?

And then comes the top. Since I had it down to bare wood and the stain/poly gave me the look I wanted, can I leave that alone and do my finish coats on it? I know it's not accurate, but the legs are already done and look great.

I cant wait to learn more about the finer finishes of yesteryear, as I have a ton of 120yo trim and woodwork in the house that I will slowly be getting back to luster. Just with what I've learned the past couple days of hard googling, I could've made some very bad mistakes with touching up of that phase of the house.


Here is what the top looked like pre stain/poly. I'm pretty good with woods, but not sure what the sides were made of. They really didn't have much of a grain pattern if at all.

[Scott Holmes]

Bryan,

You said "I cant wait to learn more about the finer finishes of yesteryear".

They are still here; Shellac being the king of the old finishes. It's on museum pieces that are centuries old. FYI - Shellac is COLORFAST it does not darken with age. Many varnishes are excellent and better than the old spirit varnishes of yester-year. There are also many top quality water-borne finishes that will outperform the old spirit varnishes.

The inferior finish is the one you chose... poly. Poly is for floors PERIOD Poly is not a type of finish of it's own; it is nothing more than a varnish made with urethane resins. There are also varnishes made with Alkyd resin (hard, clear, colorfast) and phenolic resin (very hard, dark and UV resistant)

Polyurethane resin varnishes have ONE outstanding trait... Extreme abrasion resistance.

It also has many short comings...
1) Polyurethane varnish does not stick well to itself or anything else for that matter. That's why the directions say sand between coats; not for smoothness but if you don't, the poly wont stick well.
2) Poly is tough, it is not hard, it is quit soft compared to other varnishes and much softer than shellac.
3) It yellows with age
4) It is HIGHLY susceptable to UV damage


You would be better off adding a varnish that is HARD to the top of your table; table tops need hard, not tough (unless someone will be dancing on the table in shoes). Behlen's Rockard Tabletop varnish or Waterlox Original are both, hard, Phenolic resin varnishes. Either will outperform the poly for years to come.

AND you don't HAVE to sand between coats, both are easier to repair (if needed) in the future.

[Bryan Wellman]

Hmmm. I was told by someone I trust in the business that all my woodwork in the house was the result of shellac aging. It's what I typically see in older homes....kindof a reddish orange color. This person said it was amber shellac that had aged through the years.

I know my dad said back in the 1800's he heard that people would use animal blood to stain wood before varnishing it. Not sure about that either!! :confused:

So with my table, it is a possibility then to tint clear shellac and build up the sides till it matches the legs? If so, would you also shellac the top with clear to keep the lighter color?

And for a top coat use waterlox or similar tung oil. Or would a straight varnish be better.


Please excuse my questions, but I grew up with the stain/poly bible apparently!! :) I really want to do things right, as I am with everything I'm doing to the house. I knew an 1888 home would be an adventure and I jumped in with both feet.

Thanks again

[Neal Clayton]

the most common darker colored shellacs are amber, garnet, and ruby. they're all reddish orange by default, just varying degrees of it. garnet and ruby are more deep red, amber has more of a brown'ish tint.

the problem with a stain, is once you've put it on there you're stuck with it unless you don't mind chemically stripping it, so it's a one shot deal. shellac builds a surface film, so it's just as easily repaired and removed as it is applied. alcohol or ammonia will remove it quite easily, as will a heat gun. if you don't like what you're getting simply pour some alcohol on the wood and wipe it off, then try again, no harm done.

if i had to bet on the original finish, i would bet on garnet all around, just more coats on the sides until they got that dark. after 8-10 coats garnet over a dark wood like walnut will get as dark as you have on the sides/legs of that table, it'll just take awhile to get there.

considering how many coats you'll need to apply to get the dark color you want, i'd probably use an oil for a sealer, though, to darken the grain a bit so that it still shows through when you're done. one or two coats of boiled linseed oil (very thin), let them dry overnight, then start with the garnet.

two pics below for an example...

the first is a cabinet door with just a single coat of garnet before assembly to ensure there's no bare wood showing when it shrinks. the larger closet door is after about 10-12 coats of garnet. they're both yellow pine, so started out pretty similar. sorry for the poor quality on the second one, it's a cellphone pic and the door wasn't buffed yet at that point so it's still a bit rough. but you can see how it progressively gets darker and darker, just gotta keep adding the coats til you get what you're looking for.

and you'll see if you try that, adding 10 to 15 coats to a scrap piece of walnut, that there's a depth to the finish, it'll look deep brown from a distance, until you look at it up close, and then you'll see the grain showing through, but it'll be very subtle. how do you accomplish that with stain and polyurethane? you don't ;). it's the many layers that build up to make it look like that. so if you want it to look like it used to, that's how ya do it.

[Bryan Wellman]

That's great....thanks.

Do they make a shellac that is dark walnut for my table edge? Or is that going back to a tint again. I have no problem with getting tint for it, just was more concerned with which one to add to shellac.


Also.....yup. That door is almost dead on with mine. I will say that the trim throughout the house varies in darkness, but I attribute that to probably lots of years of direct sunlight in some of the rooms.

Here's a pic of my trim.

[Scott Holmes]

Bryan,
Neal,

Shellac is not to be built up to a thick coat; it will aligator. The perfect shellac finish is one that is as thin as possible and flawless. Lacquer and varnish can be built up to a deep thick coat.

Bryan, WATERLOX is VARNISH it is made from tung oil and phenolic resins. I don't think your table needs to be sealed with shellac before applying hthe Waterlox, unless you add a stain or color to the wood first. Then, the shellac is a good idea to seal in the color.

You can add dye to shellac to get a darker color.

Neal, DNA will indeed remove and or smooth and redistribute shellac. Ammonia on the other hand will ruin it; and remove it.

[Bryan Wellman]

So the idea on the sides would be to tint varnish and layer till I get to the darkness I want? Easy enough.

I was thinking of going with the Behlen's for the top (and sides?). Read up on that last night and seems like the ticket. I also read a great article on how to sand/wax finishes after they are cured. Is this something that would be possible to get that deep gloss on the top? Or will the gloss Behlen's be level and smooth. Most of the varnishes I read about seemed to be self-leveling to a degree.

[Bryan Wellman]

Shellac is not to be built up to a thick coat; it will aligator.

That would explain some of the trim in my house. There are parts on some of the bigger pieces that were obviously touched-up at some point. Kinda has the appearance of lizard skin like you mentioned. Probably due to getting it too thick?

[Neal Clayton]

heat/sun will make it do that as well over time. just rub it with some alcohol and you can smooth it back out.


Bryan,
Neal,

Shellac is not to be built up to a thick coat; it will aligator. The perfect shellac finish is one that is as thin as possible and flawless. Lacquer and varnish can be built up to a deep thick coat.

Bryan, WATERLOX is VARNISH it is made from tung oil and phenolic resins. I don't think your table needs to be sealed with shellac before applying hthe Waterlox, unless you add a stain or color to the wood first. Then, the shellac is a good idea to seal in the color.

You can add dye to shellac to get a darker color.

Neal, DNA will indeed remove and or smooth and redistribute shellac. Ammonia on the other hand will ruin it; and remove it.

i've gotten it pretty thick spraying, brushing i agree would be difficult to get that thick and keep it smooth.

yeah that was the idea, that if he didn't like the color he got in a test spot, ammonia would take it right off ;).

bryan, any alcohol soluble dye or stain will work with shellac. you can order em from any finishing supply place, rockler, woodcraft, etc. just mix it and mess with it til you get the color you want.

again from looking at your piece, i would start with garnet, adding something darker for the sides, and going with straight garnet on the top. it won't take much, a little dye goes a long way. and again i would put some sort of clear sealer coat on the bare spots first. darker shellacs can be splotchy on usealed wood like stains on unsealed wood.