Woodcraft and LN

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

I just received the new monthly Woodcraft catalog and noticed that all the LN tools were no longer represented.

I remember being told in Spring of 2009 by the LN VP of Sales that some things were happening with Woodcraft that weren't all positive. He didn't go into much detail due to litigious reasons I suppose. (BTW, I'm a nobody - the VP of sales happened to be giving me and a buddy a plant tour and being small business men ourselves, we had a neat opportunity to talk shop in that regard.)

So, did I miss some scuttle-butt on the creek? Maybe I'm re-hashing old news...

[Mike Henderson]

From what I understand, LN has significantly reduced the number of retail outlets selling their products. There was a story on it somewhere but I can't remember where right now.

Mike

[Adam Johan Bergren]

Not sure if a subscription is needed or not (I have one), but here is one link that should shed some light on this:
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/22352/lie-nielsen-toolworks-and-woodcraft-part-ways

[Callan Campbell]

Yeah John, we kicked this one around right after it was officially announced. The worst part is that a potential LN buyer now has less chances to put an actual tool in their hands before buying it. If you were already a catalog buyer or on-line buyer only, you probably don't think much about the whole affair. , but, it caused alot of talk when it was a fresh topic:p:p:p

[Andrew Gibson]

I noticed this the last couple times I was in my local Woodcraft. I have a LN dovetail saw and would eventuely like to add to the collection with more LN backsaws.

Now Woodcraft is carrying a whight handeled dovetail saw for $200ish. glad I got my LN before they stopped carrying it.

[Jim Barrett]

The white handled DT saw is probably Rob Cosman's...

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

The worst part is that a potential LN buyer now has less chances to put an actual tool in their hands before buying it.

LN has tool events all across the country. I know in some places they may be hard to attend or too far away. From the article linked in a previous post, they are working toward having 100 of these a year. That is a lot of work in it self.

The good thing in my understanding is LN wants satisfied customers. I would expect satisfaction or my money back from any of their products. Personally, I am pretty happy with my old Stanley/Bailey planes that have been tuned up. There will be an LN tool event in my area in a few weeks that I am planning to attend. My hope is to give a lot of their planes a test drive.

jim

[Eric DeSilva]

I was in a WC a couple weeks ago and the store guys were having a discussion about LN. According to them--and who the heck knows if they are right or wrong--each store can still choose to deal with LN direct.

[James Taglienti]

Perhaps LN finally caught on that the "Woodriver" line of planes was just a Bedrock in disguise... LN seems to have "exclusive rights" to the flat top these days. Oh, if leonard bailey were here to see this, he would certainly be on LN's side :D considering his own perceived injustices with SR&L.

[Richard Magbanua]

In my experience, the LN tool events are the best way to see/test LN tools. They seem to bring just about ALL of their tools to be used and tested on their workbenches with wood scraps. The LN crew is on hand to answer the questions you have and demonstrate how to properly use them. I bought a carcass saw in Indy last summer and was happy they had them in stock for me to take home. What's more is that there were other tool makers there as well. With regards to hand saws, I got to thoroughly test all of the LN saws, the Eccentric saws and, thanks to Chris S., the Bad Axe saws too!

By contrast, at my Woodcraft I was never able to test any LN tools. They had the LN's locked up in a cabinet and I had to have it unlocked first with the sales guy standing there waiting. Kinda awkward. And of all the guys I've talked to there, only one (gal), seemed to know much about hand tools. The last time I went there the sales guy was really pushing the WoodRiver line. I was even told I could expect to spend at least an hour tuning up a Lie-Nielsen before I could use it.

Personally, I don't think I'm missing much not having LN's at Woodcraft. I have plenty of dependable and honest feedback from people I've come to trust in this forum as well as other blog sites for me to make a decision on LN tools. And, if it turns out I'm not satisfied with a purchase from LN, they stand behind them enough for me to return them for a full refund.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Thanks for the info. I figured I missed the boat on all the threads about this...:) Ah, well. you'll have this i guess.

I'll have to read through the finewoodworking.com article - i missed that one somehow too.

I guess i've been too busy lately...kitchen project is coming to a quick close - so i should have more cold, wintry nights to huddle in front of the laptop and peruse articles and threads of yore.

[Sandy Stanford]

I just received the new monthly Woodcraft catalog and noticed that all the LN tools were no longer represented.

I remember being told in Spring of 2009 by the LN VP of Sales that some things were happening with Woodcraft that weren't all positive. He didn't go into much detail due to litigious reasons I suppose. (BTW, I'm a nobody - the VP of sales happened to be giving me and a buddy a plant tour and being small business men ourselves, we had a neat opportunity to talk shop in that regard.)

So, did I miss some scuttle-butt on the creek? Maybe I'm re-hashing old news...

L-N apparently made the arbitrary decision that they were the only authorized copier of the Bedrock design and that they also have a monopoly on the use of bronze. Maybe we can dig up some Bronze Age woodworkers and sue them.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't think the matter is simple as that. Probably there were a lot of things within their business agreement or commitment that went astray which we wouldn't know anything about.

[Wilbur Pan]

I just received the new monthly Woodcraft catalog and noticed that all the LN tools were no longer represented.

I remember being told in Spring of 2009 by the LN VP of Sales that some things were happening with Woodcraft that weren't all positive. He didn't go into much detail due to litigious reasons I suppose.
More likely he didn't go into detail because in the long run, it's bad business to be bashing your former business partners if a former relationship comes to an end.

[Jim Koepke]

The last time I went there the sales guy was really pushing the WoodRiver line. I was even told I could expect to spend at least an hour tuning up a Lie-Nielsen before I could use it.

In the world of retail, they often call them "push items" or there may be "spiffs" involved. A spiff is a little extra in the pay check for performance. If each time a sales person was credited a few bucks for each customer they steered toward the "push item," you can bet they are going find that quite spiffy and to try to sell you on that.

I am not sure about the "rights" to make the flat top Bedrocks or any of that. If my memory is serving, there were some specific patents that LN may have on the making of their current offerings. There could have also been a sales agreement with WC not to sell any Bedrock type planes.

I have only read so much on this subject because the only thing that is of concern to me is if the plane will work out of the box and if the seller will stand behind what they sell/make. If LN is willing to make sure their customer is happy, then I will have no hesitation to recommend their planes to people who ask me. It is the same for LV. We have two great North American makers of planes that are making distinctly different products. As far as I know, both companies make excellent products and one is not necessarily better than the other. Wow! Who wants to fight with such variety? I have bought from both of companies and have been very happy with what I have received. I have bought from WoodCraft in the past and may again. They do not seem to have the level of customer service in person that I have received from both LN & LV on-line or over the phone. To me, that says a lot when a person is looking you in the eye and lacks the warmth of a phone clerk or even an email.

If I do not want to pay the LN or LV price, there is always my favorite old Stanley tools to hunt down and restore.

jim

[Mike Henderson]

In the world of retail, they often call them "push items" or there may be "spiffs" involved. A spiff is a little extra in the pay check for performance. If each time a sales person was credited a few bucks for each customer they steered toward the "push item," you can bet they are going find that quite spiffy and to try to sell you on that.

I am not sure about the "rights" to make the flat top Bedrocks or any of that. If my memory is serving, there were some specific patents that LN may have on the making of their current offerings. There could have also been a sales agreement with WC not to sell any Bedrock type planes.

I have only read so much on this subject because the only thing that is of concern to me is if the plane will work out of the box and if the seller will stand behind what they sell/make. If LN is willing to make sure their customer is happy, then I will have no hesitation to recommend their planes to people who ask me. It is the same for LV. We have two great North American makers of planes that are making distinctly different products. As far as I know, both companies make excellent products and one is not necessarily better than the other. Wow! Who wants to fight with such variety? I have bought from both of companies and have been very happy with what I have received. I have bought from WoodCraft in the past and may again. They do not seem to have the level of customer service in person that I have received from both LN & LV on-line or over the phone. To me, that says a lot when a person is looking you in the eye and lacks the warmth of a phone clerk or even an email.

If I do not want to pay the LN or LV price, there is always my favorite old Stanley tools to hunt down and restore.

jim
When you purchase an old Stanley Bedrock plane there's no one to stand behind it - you're on your own. And the price you'll pay can easily be the same as the WoodRiver planes.

I haven't used a WoodRiver plane but I did examine them at my local Woodcraft store and they appear to be good planes, certainly as good of a plane as a Bedrock received in the mail from an eBay auction.

I have no clue about how well Woodcraft stands behind them, but at least you have a chance to get a problem fixed, compared to purchasing an old Bedrock.

Mike

[Michael Gibbons]

I went to my local woodcraft a few weeks ago to buy something small. Anyways, when you walk in the door, the LN cabinet is right there- the first thing you see-it was full. At the checkout I asked for a new catalog. When I got home ( my wife has a problem with me reading it while I'm driving-strange girl) I flipped pages and LN was nowhere to be found. I thought that was odd 'till I read this post.

[Jim Koepke]

When you purchase an old Stanley Bedrock plane there's no one to stand behind it - you're on your own. And the price you'll pay can easily be the same as the WoodRiver planes.

I haven't used a WoodRiver plane but I did examine them at my local Woodcraft store and they appear to be good planes, certainly as good of a plane as a Bedrock received in the mail from an eBay auction.

I have no clue about how well Woodcraft stands behind them, but at least you have a chance to get a problem fixed, compared to purchasing an old Bedrock.

Mike

I have owned two Bedrocks and sold them both. They are a good plane, but only slightly better than a Bailey. I can usually find old Baileys at a fair price and fix them up. It is a lot more work than buying new, but I have the time and not the money. The biggest problem is always having to find the odd spare parts if you want to keep working on them. Otherwise, just stop when you get all you want.:)

jim

[Mike Henderson]

I have owned two Bedrocks and sold them both. They are a good plane, but only slightly better than a Bailey. I can usually find old Baileys at a fair price and fix them up. It is a lot more work than buying new, but I have the time and not the money. The biggest problem is always having to find the odd spare parts if you want to keep working on them. Otherwise, just stop when you get all you want.:)

jim
I was comparing to a Stanley Bedrock because that's the design base for both the LN and the WoodRiver. So I felt it was a reasonable way to compare the planes (apples to apples).

A Stanley Bailey would be much less expensive than either the LN or the WoodRiver.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

A Stanley Bailey would be much less expensive than either the LN or the WoodRiver.

Mike

And as a contrarian, I will gladly reach for the value others are leaving behind.

jim

[Mike Henderson]

As you know*, Jim, I only recently purchased my first couple of Bedrock planes. I find them to be excellent planes. But I sometimes wonder if experience and knowledge don't play a part.

When I was first starting out in woodworking it was inconceivable to me to pay the amount that a Bedrock would cost (let alone an LN) - so I started with Stanley Baileys. Of course, I didn't know how to tune them or even how to sharpen the blade well - and I didn't really know how to use them.

As I learned more, I bought some Keen Kutter Kx planes and some Vaughan and Bushnell 900 series planes and tuned them up. They seemed to perform better than my Stanley Baileys but maybe some of it was that I had learned a bit more about how to tune, sharpen and use the planes.

By the time I got to the Bedrocks, I knew how to set up and handle a plane. So the Bedrocks worked very well for me.

I wonder if other people had the same experience.

Mike

[*Jim knows about my Bedrock purchases because he sold me some spare parts for one of them. Thanks, Jim.]

[Chuck Tringo]

I don't know about LN thinking they have the only rights to the Bedrock square top style as some have alluded to, and I would love to see a link to where that info came from. To me it makes perfect sense though, as the only current maker of this style of plane being sold through the nations largest brick and mortar woodworking franchise, to find out that they are introducing a mid-level line that looks, oh my gosh, just like the line that we have been the only produces of for what, 80-90 years....and would likely be marketed as 'just as good' as the more expensive LNs to unknowing buyers....yeah, I would see this as a slight, so I'm not at all surprised at LN pulling back from most WCs.

[Sandy Stanford]

I don't know about LN thinking they have the only rights to the Bedrock square top style as some have alluded to, and I would love to see a link to where that info came from. To me it makes perfect sense though, as the only current maker of this style of plane being sold through the nations largest brick and mortar woodworking franchise, to find out that they are introducing a mid-level line that looks, oh my gosh, just like the line that we have been the only produces of for what, 80-90 years....and would likely be marketed as 'just as good' as the more expensive LNs to unknowing buyers....yeah, I would see this as a slight, so I'm not at all surprised at LN pulling back from most WCs.

The ultimate problem is that Quangsheng's (aka WoodRiver) Bedrock clone appears to be a pretty decent plane at substantially less cost. I'm an L-N fan, but there's nothing wrong with them having to work a little harder for my woodworking dollar.

You can read reviews here:

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand-tools-f11.html

It beggars belief that L-N would not be upset about a competing line being introduced at Wood Craft.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't know about LN thinking they have the only rights to the Bedrock square top style as some have alluded to, and I would love to see a link to where that info came from. To me it makes perfect sense though, as the only current maker of this style of plane being sold through the nations largest brick and mortar woodworking franchise, to find out that they are introducing a mid-level line that looks, oh my gosh, just like the line that we have been the only produces of for what, 80-90 years....and would likely be marketed as 'just as good' as the more expensive LNs to unknowing buyers....yeah, I would see this as a slight, so I'm not at all surprised at LN pulling back from most WCs.
I really doubt if LN took the action they did because of Woodcraft's introduction of the WoodRiver planes. My local Woodcraft (Stanton, CA) is apparently going to continue to sell the LN planes. According to the owner, LN has certain requirements for any retail outlet that sells their planes, including having a place where customers can try out the planes (maybe a bench with some wood and a selection of the planes).

One possibility is that LN felt that retailers who only stocked the planes didn't provide much value add - if you couldn't try the plane, the only value the store added was immediate possession compared to buying it directly from LN.

I would not be surprised to see LN begin doing their "demonstration events" more often in major markets as a way to drive more direct sales (direct from LN).

Mike

[dan sherman]

L-N apparently made the arbitrary decision that they were the only authorized copier of the Bedrock design and that they also have a monopoly on the use of bronze. Maybe we can dig up some Bronze Age woodworkers and sue them.

I don't know if it went down exactly like that, but it definitely smells fishy.

[Dan Sink]

I think L-N's explanation is plausible and I believe that the reasons they give certainly played a large role in their decision. However, I also think there is a chance that L-N is being diplomatic about it, but that there was a deterioration of the relationship at some point as well. I don't doubt that the Woodriver planes played a role. Not because L-N think they have exclusive rights to the old Stanley designs, but because WC clearly has a financial interest to push their house brand to customers considering buying an L-N plane. Another reason I think the relationship soured at some point is that when WC had their 20% off L-N products plus free shipping sale back in the Autumn, which was greatly discussed on this board, I called up L-N to see if they'd match the deal. I had a $200 L-N gift certificate so I had to buy direct. I was saving for a #7 so we were talking about real dollars (at least to me). Of course as expected, being the terrific company it is, L-N immediately agreed to give me the discount and free shipping so that I could use my gift certificate. But what surprised me is that the L-N representative I talked to was genuinely shocked by the WC sale on their items and said my phone call was the first they had heard of it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if WC had breached a contractual agreement by running the sale. In any case, for WC to have such a big sale and not give L-N at least a courtesy heads up surprised me. I wasn't shocked when I saw shortly after that they were parting ways.

[Mike Messersmith]

The local WC here in Downingtown,PA has a fair selection of LN planes. The one worker teaches planeing classes. His advise is to go with the LN planes,if you plan on using planes quite often. He felt the Woodriver planes are decent planes after tuning, but he would wait and spend the extra on the LN plane.
Of course my thinking is like Jim Koepke,all of my planes are Baileys,that I have picked up at local flea markets and yard sales. It is not hard to find one for $25-$35. I have less than a $100 in any of the ones I have,including a couple that I put new hock blades in. I have a nice 4 1/2 that I put a Hock Blade and chip breaker in. I have a 125.00 in it.

[Jim Koepke]

I wonder how much of this was driven by the Woodriver offerings and how much was driven by the "presentation" of planes in a store.

I have been in various retailers that carried a product, but often it was displayed in a way to drive customers away from that product to help promote another product.

Many people have jobs that are nothing more than to go to a retail outlet to see how a customer or a product is handled. They are professional shoppers.

Sometimes these folks work for independent agencies. Sometimes they work for the corporations or retail companies. If Woodcraft did not present LN products to LN's liking, that may have been a good reason for removing them for chain control and hand them over to individual store control. It seems Thom Lie-Nielsen likes to have people handle his

Though, all we can really do is speculate. My knowledge is limited to what I have read or heard.

Beyond satisfying our curiosity it really does not matter about the why. The reality is what is.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Sandy,
Your link opens to a page that looks to have a lot of threads and I can not find the reviews.

Your comment about the quality versus cost issue is an interesting situation. I know a person who would feel the solution would be for LN to cut wages to the point of matching the wages paid in the factories making the WoodRiver planes. I hope that does not happen.

I have noticed that Clifton planes on one site are almost equal in cost to the LN planes. Do the Clifton planes match the quality. I am not sure how things are today, but my memory recalls some reviews that said the WoodRiver offerings were no where near the quality of a rusty old Stanley.

I am sure these things can change quickly.

jim



The ultimate problem is that Quangsheng's (aka WoodRiver) Bedrock clone appears to be a pretty decent plane at substantially less cost. I'm an L-N fan, but there's nothing wrong with them having to work a little harder for my woodworking dollar.

You can read reviews here:

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand-tools-f11.html

It beggars belief that L-N would not be upset about a competing line being introduced at Wood Craft.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I think L-N's explanation is plausible and I believe that the reasons they give certainly played a large role in their decision. However, I also think there is a chance that L-N is being diplomatic about it, but that there was a deterioration of the relationship at some point as well. I don't doubt that the Woodriver planes played a role. Not because L-N think they have exclusive rights to the old Stanley designs, but because WC clearly has a financial interest to push their house brand to customers considering buying an L-N plane. Another reason I think the relationship soured at some point is that when WC had their 20% off L-N products plus free shipping sale back in the Autumn, which was greatly discussed on this board, I called up L-N to see if they'd match the deal. I had a $200 L-N gift certificate so I had to buy direct. I was saving for a #7 so we were talking about real dollars (at least to me). Of course as expected, being the terrific company it is, L-N immediately agreed to give me the discount and free shipping so that I could use my gift certificate. But what surprised me is that the L-N representative I talked to was genuinely shocked by the WC sale on their items and said my phone call was the first they had heard of it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if WC had breached a contractual agreement by running the sale. In any case, for WC to have such a big sale and not give L-N at least a courtesy heads up surprised me. I wasn't shocked when I saw shortly after that they were parting ways.


I would tend to agree. The "ongoing litigation - no comment" by both sides speaks the loudest as to the real driver.

[Mike Henderson]

I am not sure how things are today, but my memory recalls some reviews that said the WoodRiver offerings were no where near the quality of a rusty old Stanley.

I am sure these things can change quickly.

jim
I know the people at my local Woodcraft pretty well, and they do not report people returning WoodRiver planes or complaining about them. And they do report selling a lot of them. Unless all those buyers are just totally uninformed and don't know what a good plane is, I would expect to hear about complaints and returns.

And I know the people well enough to know that they aren't telling me fibs.

Mike

[I've also examined the planes in pretty good detail - took some completely apart - and they appear to be well made. I don't own one so I can't give any experience with one. If I needed a (another) plane, I would buy a WoodRiver.]

[Sandy Stanford]

I know the people at my local Woodcraft pretty well, and they do not report people returning WoodRiver planes or complaining about them. And they do report selling a lot of them. Unless all those buyers are just totally uninformed and don't know what a good plane is, I would expect to hear about complaints and returns.

And I know the people well enough to know that they aren't telling me fibs.

Mike

[I've also examined the planes in pretty good detail - took some completely apart - and they appear to be well made. I don't own one so I can't give any experience with one. If I needed a (another) plane, I would buy a WoodRiver.]

Others agree with your assessment:

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand-tools-f11.html