Very First proto kitchen cabinet done (well, almost!)

[scott vroom]

Here's a couple of pics of the prototype kitchen wall cabinet my son glued up today as a prelude to the cherry kitchen cabinets we're about to begin building. We wanted to practice and work out the bugs before buying expensive wood so this cabinet was built from milled 4/4 poplar, 3/4" ash plywood, and 1/4" MDF for the door panels. This is our very first cabinet made in our new shopped stocked with new Griz tools. Notice how we designed the exposed end panel: it's actually a door with wider rails that is attatched to the face frame with a 45 degree miter. The doors are just leaning against the cabinet front in the pic, we still need to attach the hardware.

Our second prototype (before beginning the big kitchen remodel) will be a base drawer cabinet that will serve as the router table stand. We're using a design very similar to Matt's.

[Glen Butler]

IMHO, it looks odd that the panel end has different width rails than the doors. When I do raised panel ends the rails are all the same width, as do the cabinets shops in the area. One exception is if you wanted to cover a light rail. The panel end would be taller by say 1.5", and this would be in the bottom rail, but the top of the bottom rail would line up with the rails of the doors.

But alas I just realized you are doing face frame cabinets which makes lining up the rails a pain. Still looks odd though. Ever considered doing Euro style?

[John A langley]

I'm nor nit-picking. The cabinets actually look very good. Your door rails and end panel rails should be the same width. The picture gives the impression that they are not. Good luck with you project.

[scott vroom]

Yep, you guys are correct....we intentionally made the end panel rails wider for added strength since the top and bottom carcass pieces are dado'd into the end panel rails...probably overkill. I see your point about alignment. I think we might want to make the bottom of the end panel top rail, and the top of the end panel bottom rail contiguous with their respective door rails. It might be a cleaner look.

I appreciate the critique...as I pointed out, this is a prototype built specifically for learnings and to work out the design bugs. This is literally our first cabinet ever and it will hang proudly above the router table storage niche!

We look forward to comments/critiques from other creek'ers.

[Jacob Griffith]

Very nice Scott. I'm sure you and your son will get great satisfaction out of the kitchen project. While agreeing with others on the rails, I think this design will look excellent in Cherry.

[Karl Card]

I am actually glad i saw this thread. I to am getting ready to make kitchen cabients and never did I think about making one or two out of less expensive wood to see how it goes together, but then I couldnt afford cherry so I am using sassafras. I just had to be different..lol

[Richard Wolf]

I always like 1/2" panels on doors. The cost is only a small increase and the feel is much more solid. You can dado the back of the panels to fit your 1/4" groove. Your doors will sound much more solid when you close them also.

Richard

[Sue Wise]

These prototype cabinets make great shop or laundry room cabinets. I am also thinking about redoing my kitchen so I made prototype cabinet that is birch plywood, walnut face frame, oak door rails and styles. The cabinet has an identity crisis, but makes a great shop cabinet as I hone my skills.

-Sue

[Matt Meiser]

Looks good Scott.

I was thinking the other day that I might prototype one of the ones for our kitchen to make sure LOML is happy with the door style, finish, trim, etc. We've got one that is alone so if she is, it can just go right up.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Make the carcass out of plywood on both sides when you are planning a finished (door) end. Inset it so that when the 'door' is applied it's at the correct set-back from the face frame. This eliminates the need to rely on the raised panel construction for structural support and gives you a clean uninterrupted panel to drill for shelf pegs and, in bases, drawer slides.

Plywood on both sides makes a stronger box and will never rupture because it's got 100 pounds of dishes sitting in it over the next 20 years. Mortice & tenon on a 6 pound door is one thing... M&T is not going to take a fully loaded cabinet for long.
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[Paul Johnstone]

Plywood on both sides makes a stronger box and will never rupture because it's got 100 pounds of dishes sitting in it over the next 20 years. Mortice & tenon on a 6 pound door is one thing... M&T is not going to take a fully loaded cabinet for long.
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I agree that plywood sides would make the cabinet stronger, however.. isn't the design as is more than adquate? I am not super experienced in this method of contruction, but I've seen plans for bookshelves built the way the OP built it.. frame and panel sides, pegs to hold adjustable shelves. If it works on a bookcase, I'm guessing it would be fine in a kitchen.

My only comment is that the unit in the picture looks pretty tall. If it were me, I'd build it in two pieces (top and bottom) and stack it. Either that, or I'd put a fixed shelf in the middle. Again, it may not be necessary but it adds strength. (I'd make the sides have two raised panels, so that I'd have a style in the middle to attach my fixed shelf to).

[Mitchell Andrus]

but I've seen plans for bookshelves built the way the OP built it.. frame and panel sides, pegs to hold adjustable shelves. If it works on a bookcase, I'm guessing it would be fine in a kitchen.



Wall cabinets have the floor to keep things square. Wall cabs have only a 1.5" to 2" top and bottom rail to keep the carcass from racking. Even if the joint holds and the wood doesn't split, the parts may be prone to sagging. with overlay doors, a 1/16" to 1/8" sag won't be seen. With flush-fit doors it'll keep the doors from closing.

These are overlay doors, but still, a hunk of plywood 12 x 24" to 30" is cheap insurance and makes a better box.
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[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Scott, looking good.

I have a question about the construction.

Is the cabinet a plywood box with applied face frame and end panels?

Also how do you hang the cabinet, does it go on a French cleat, or is the back sturdy enough to be screwed to the wall.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. It's just a personal thing, however I drill a minimum number of shelf holes in my cabinet, usually just one above and below my designed shelf location. I think it looks more "custom" than IKEA that way.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree that plywood sides would make the cabinet stronger, however.. isn't the design as is more than adquate? I am not super experienced in this method of contruction, but I've seen plans for bookshelves built the way the OP built it.. frame and panel sides, pegs to hold adjustable shelves. If it works on a bookcase, I'm guessing it would be fine in a kitchen.

My only comment is that the unit in the picture looks pretty tall. If it were me, I'd build it in two pieces (top and bottom) and stack it. Either that, or I'd put a fixed shelf in the middle. Again, it may not be necessary but it adds strength. (I'd make the sides have two raised panels, so that I'd have a style in the middle to attach my fixed shelf to).


Hi Paul, unless the cabinet has a plywood interior, I also have concerns about the load being transferred through racking of the rails and stiles.

On a bookcase, the load is transferred to the floor through compression of the stiles, there is no load through the rails or their joints.

Regards, Rod.

[scott vroom]

Mitchell, you make a good point. If we constructed the carcass with ply all around and attached the end panel to the ply side it would make a stronger cabinet. This may or may not be necessary, I'd like to hear from others who have done it our way to see if sagging has occured. If we did it as you suggested, I'm not sure how we'd align the 45 degree angle where the face frame meets the side panel stile. Man, it would take some super precise engineering/measuring/cutting on the recessed plywood end piece to allow an overlayed frame and panel with a beveled edge to attach perfectly with the mitered faceframe. One solution we considered was to incorporate the frame and panel end piece into the face frame construction (joined at a 45 degree mitre at the left edge of the face frame), then attach that entire face frame/end panel piece to a plywood carcass. That way, we're guaranteed of getting the perfectly tight mitre. Follow me?

I appreciate your thoughts....good to get ideas from those with more experience. As I mentioned above, this is the first cabinet we've made...we're brand new to this and are looking for critiques.

[scott vroom]

Hi Scott, looking good.

I have a question about the construction.

Is the cabinet a plywood box with applied face frame and end panels?

Also how do you hang the cabinet, does it go on a French cleat, or is the back sturdy enough to be screwed to the wall.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. It's just a personal thing, however I drill a minimum number of shelf holes in my cabinet, usually just one above and below my designed shelf location. I think it looks more "custom" than IKEA that way.

Hi Rod, thanks for the comments. The cabinet as constructed has 3/4" plywood top, bottom, right side, and back, all attached using dados. 3/4" back precludes the need for installation cleats. The left side is a frame and panel with no plywood support. The end panel top and bottom rails and the rear stile are dado'd to the plywood carcass; the end panel front stile is attached at 45 degree miter to the face frame w/glue and 18 gauge brads.

See my previous post. My thinking is that it may be better to make the entire carcass from plywood and then attach a pre-fabricated face frame and frame/panel side unit to the carcass (prefabricating the face frame and frame/panel side unit would allow us to execute a perfectly aligned 45 degree miter at their juncture).

Appreciate any thoughts/ideas.

[Glen Butler]

This is why I mentioned Euro style cabinets. You build a simple box with 5 sides out of 3/4 ply/melamine and edgeband them. Those boxes are just carcasses that hold all the pretty stuff. You make your end panel 3/4" deeper than your box so it is flush with the front edge of the doors once they are installed. There would be no center support. The bottom is supported from any sag by a light rail. The doors are made so there is 1/16~1/8 between them. A cleaner look in my opinion.

I have never seen a paneled end on a face frame cabinet. Probably because of the problems you are encountering. I say problems for lack of a better word, as I am aware it is a problem to me, based on my critique. I will take some pictures today for you. I know there are others out there that could use them too.

[Matt Meiser]

I would (did) actually just apply the end. Two ways to do it that I know of. One, the way I did, was to leave the FF hang over the cabinet side by 3/4" and build the side to fit behind.

Another way, which is how I think I'll do it this time since we are going to have some different situations, is to use the correct ply species or veneer the cabinet end. Then make a panel just like a door and attach it to the end with the same reveal. One of my friends' kitchens is done this way and it looks good.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Scott, I would make the plywood box with separate face frame and end panel.

That would maximize the strength, and standardise the box construction.

The end panel could then be scribed to fit the wall easily, once the cabinet is hung.

Nice looking cabinets...........Have fun

[Mark Bolton]

A couple questions,
I am assuming you are going to this level of detail on the exposed gable ends of the cabinets only? Are you going to miter the gables of all the cabinets? Even the wall cabs in the field which will be butted and screwed together?

If so, that seems like an awful lot of work that wont be seen other than on the interior. Additionally this will likely cause you problems on install as if the gables arent dead square with the face frames you will likely have a problem with the cabinets not running straight when they are screwed together. That is to say, any out of square, when you clamp and screw the face frames tight, the cabinet may toe out or in with no ability for adjusting that out.

Generally the face frame at the butt connection overhangs the carcass edge slightly allowing for a tight fit at the face frame but a bit of play behind it. Many installers simply let the cabinet wave with the wall and others assemble the cabinets dead straight and shim (thats the way we do it).

Just wondering,
Mark

[Paul Johnstone]

Wall cabinets have the floor to keep things square. Wall cabs have only a 1.5" to 2" top and bottom rail to keep the carcass from racking. Even if the joint holds and the wood doesn't split, the parts may be prone to sagging. with overlay doors, a 1/16" to 1/8" sag won't be seen. With flush-fit doors it'll keep the doors from closing.

These are overlay doors, but still, a hunk of plywood 12 x 24" to 30" is cheap insurance and makes a better box.
.
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Ok, thanks for the explanation.

[Dennis Lopeman]

I am actually glad i saw this thread. I to am getting ready to make kitchen cabients and never did I think about making one or two out of less expensive wood to see how it goes together, but then I couldnt afford cherry so I am using sassafras. I just had to be different..lol

Careful with that sassafras. I was actually today doing some research on wood dust and carcinogens. Sassafras is listed as a suspected carcinogen. Dust, wood, leaves and bark cause nausea and are directly toxic.

[Rob Lindquist]

I normally make the face frame scribe 9/16" on the side or sides I want a raised or flat (style and rail 1/4" panels) panel end. Then I make the cabinet box all 3/4" ply and apply the end face frame to the end of the cabinet. I screw it from the inside and glue and clamp to the face frame. The extra 1/16" allows for a flush trim router bit to clean them up and give a perfectly flush fit. Also remember to make the styles 3/4" narrower on the end panel so the face frame and end panel styles all have the same width dimensions. I have not attempted to 45 the face and the end panels, I doubt I could do it perfectly and it probably isn't necessary.

If your wife loads up the cabinets like mine you will have issues with just the end panel. I do (sometimes) use just end panels for linens cabinets or tall cabinets that go all the way to the floor, as a previous poster mentioned, that is a whole different ballgame.

All my cabinets at home, done by a "custom cabinet shop" have flat panel (style and rail 1/4" panels) ends. They all go to the floor though as frig cabinets and built in oven cabinet.

[Mike Goetzke]

May be a little off subject but I suggest the following two books:

1) Building Kitchen Cabinets, by Udo Schmidt (http://www.amazon.com/Building-Kitchen-Cabinets-Udo-Schmidt/dp/1561584703/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265062202&sr=1-3)

2) Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets, Danny Prolux (http://www.amazon.com/Build-Kitchen-Cabinets-Popular-Woodworking/dp/1558706763/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265062202&sr=1-4#noop)

The first shows more of what tools are required and how to use them. The second explains a hybrid method that combines Euro and FF techniques and uses sheets of ply very efficiently.

Good Luck,

Mike

[Neal Clayton]

I always like 1/2" panels on doors. The cost is only a small increase and the feel is much more solid. You can dado the back of the panels to fit your 1/4" groove. Your doors will sound much more solid when you close them also.

Richard

agreed, i also use 1/2 panels for the same reason.


One solution we considered was to incorporate the frame and panel end piece into the face frame construction (joined at a 45 degree mitre at the left edge of the face frame), then attach that entire face frame/end panel piece to a plywood carcass. That way, we're guaranteed of getting the perfectly tight mitre. Follow me?

I appreciate your thoughts....good to get ideas from those with more experience. As I mentioned above, this is the first cabinet we've made...we're brand new to this and are looking for critiques.

that's how i prefer. and if you really wanna be slick with keeping the miter together, you can cut a dovetail the entire length of it, and have a spline run through the miter. no need for it to go the whole way, just make a long'ish spline and beat it in as far as it'll go one way, saw it off with a hand saw, then flip it over and do the same from the bottom. that way the joint itself will only fit together square, and will resist any movement otherwise.