G1023slw problems

[Shawn Siegrist]

Last night I removed the top from my tablesaw in an attempt to figure out why it had up to 6 thousandths of run out on the arbor. Checked the trunion and didn't find anything wrong with it. Tightened all of the bolts that hold the trunions to the cabinet, a couple of them were loose. Reassembled the saw and ran a test cut. The saw is still leaving saw marks. Removed the blade and checked the arbor for run out, still have 6 thousandths of run out on the arbor.

If I push or pull on the cast iron housing of the arbor I get additional movement at the arbor. If I push or pull on the belts I get additional movement at the arbor.

Checked the belts, the very first belt from the access door is loose, the second belt is a little tighter, and the third belt is pretty tight. Is that normal?

At this point I don't know what else to do, any suggestions?


Shawn

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Talk with Grizzly technical support.

The chances are that they have more experience and technical expertise than most people here. The Grizzly technical support folks do it for a living.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I would love to talk to them but they are only open Monday through Friday. I was hoping someone here on the creek could give me another idea on what to check.

[Matt Meiser]

Backing up to the actual problem, if you are getting saw marks, have you tried a different blade or tried your blade on a friend's saw to make sure that's not the actual issue? What blade are you using anyway, and for what kind of cut?

Can you post a picture of the marking you are getting and how you are setting up for measurement?

[Shawn Siegrist]

I have tried three different blades, all Freud blades. Two of them are Glue Line rip and the third is a Combo Blade. I've used all three blades on my brother-in-laws Rigid Tablesaw and the worked flawlessly. I was checking the arbor and arbor flange for run out with out the blades attached. The problem is definitly with the machine.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Shawn,

Are you getting blade marks when you use the fence?

Are you getting blade marks when you use the miter gauge?

In other words, are you getting blade marks when you rip or cross cut?

[Don Jarvie]

This is a shot in the dark but can you fiddle with the motor so all 3 belts are the same tension?

The last belt thats the tightest maybe pulling on the arbor just slightly enough to cause the blade to go out a hair and could be causing the problems.

Does the blade bog down at all when ripping? If so make sure the voltage is correct. The motor will run on 110 but bog down so double check the outlet and breaker to make sure everything is tight and verify you are running on 220 if it's wired that way.

Finally, if you can crosscut with no marks check the saw setup making sure the fence and table are square to the table. Even the fence being a hair out can cause the marks. You may need to adjust the fence.

Maybe adjust the fence to compensate for the arbor.

I'm sure you did all of this but it doesn't hurt to check it again especially since you removed the top.

[Shawn Siegrist]

Motor never bogs down while cutting, saw is running on 220.

Saw marks while ripping and crosscutting.

Fence is square to the T slots.

Tried adjusting the motor, it is mounted with 4 bolts, doesn't appear to be adjustable. I did loosen the motor mount that pivots to allow belt changes. Tried to even up the tension on the three belts with no success.




Any other ideas?????

[Chris Ricker]

About the only other thing I can think of (before talking to tech support) would be to take the belts off and see if there is any movement in the arbor.
I would suspect the arbor bearings.
Good luck

[Paul Ryan]

If it is ripping that you are having problems with. Check the fence faces for flatness. There have been plenty of posts latly with fences on grizzly saws being un flat. Make sure you use a straight edge or a jointed board. If there is a bow in the then faces that could be your problem as well. But the arbor should remain straigh no matter what. When the 3 hp motor fires up it will tug on that arbor. If the belts all arn't the same tension the motor may not be sitting square to the arbor pully. Lot of things to check. I would quick check the fence to rule that out. Than try to get all 3 belts equal tension.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I believe that the arbor or the bearings are faulty, either way I'm calling tech support on Monday and asking for a new saw.

[Shawn Siegrist]

How do I adjust the belt tension?

[scott spencer]

This could even be a problem with the belts themselves. It's worth a try swapping them out (at Grizzly's expense) before arranging to swap saws. I believe I read of someone who had Grizzly supply link belts, and that resolved a similar problem.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I fail to see how bad belts or loose belts could cause blade marks on either cross cuts or rip cuts.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Shawn,

I downloaded the manual for that saw from Grizzly. There doesn't appear to be an adjustment for belt tension. It looks like the motor hangs from a bracket that is bolted at one and and pinned at the other end to the motor support post. The end of the bracket that is pinned appears to have slots to allow gravity and the weight of the motor to tension the belts.

Just for kicks and giggles, I will go measure runout on my TS3650. I am going to measure it at the blade and see what I get.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I didn't think there was a way to adjust the motor other than for belt tension. I'm pretty sure it's a problem with the arbor or the bearings.

[Karl Card]

not wanting to steal the thread but wondering what kind of play or runout is acceptable in a table saw?

[Van Huskey]

not wanting to steal the thread but wondering what kind of play or runout is acceptable in a table saw?

In a high quality cabinet saw I don't want to see over .002".

[Matt Meiser]

On my 1943-ish Unisaw its maybe .001, if that. Since runout is amplified over 5" to the tip of the blade, it can become significant.

[Glen Butler]

Shawn,

Where did you measure the runout and which direction? Did you measure the arbor washer against which the blade sits? Explain the process you went through in detail.

How did you ensure your fence was parallel to the blade? What tools did you use? Explain to me the process you went through in detail.

These are the two most likely candidates, and there are two outcomes. Either there is something wrong with the machine or you did something wrong, even if in ignorance. Simply putting your hand on the cast iron can deflect it .002". Spinning the blade by hand can deflect it even more, and you should use the pulleys when checking arbour run out.

In your previous thread I mentioned that the fence should be splayed out a couple thou, if it is perfectly parallel it leaves no room for any runout or blade vibration.

What are you using for crosscutting?

It sounds like the arbour or bearing are the culprit but we need something more to go off.

[Glen Butler]

not wanting to steal the thread but wondering what kind of play or runout is acceptable in a table saw?

My PM2000 is less than .001. Too small to tell. My fingers against the arbour was enough to make the needle wiggle when not spinning the arbour, and that same amount of wiggle was all I saw while spinning the arbour. Like Matt said, anything will be magnified 5x at the outer blade.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

My Ridgid TS3650 measured about 0.003 about 2" from the arbor on the existing blade.

I would contact Grizzly on Monday.

I would also advise getting one of the more popular books on tablesaws.

[Jim Oliver]

With that much runout at the arbor, you must be seeing a significant amount of blade wobble and runout at the edge of the blade. I assume you are measuring the face of the blade support? As the blade slows down, I would think it would be quite noticeable. I spoke to a tech with over 30 years experience recently about arbor runout and he doesn't like more than .001. I had a little more than this on a new SC saw and the local rep sent me a new arbor and bearings, which I swapped out myself. I haven't had a chance to re measure with the new one installed.

You mentioned movement at the arbor when you push on the housing. Not sure if you meant the arbor has some movement, but it should be rock solid in it's bearings and the housing.

Jim

[Gerry Werth]

Sounds like a bad arbor bearing :(

[Mike Linne]

Try tightening the arbor nut to increase the preload on the arbor bearings. I believe it's # 40 on the parts diagram.

[Bob Wingard]

If your arbor has end shake, I'd guess a bearing has crept a little, and that is a whole different problem.

If your flange is not true, there is an excellent video out there that shows how to identify the high spots .. mark them .. then file them back to true. I have access to a full machine shop and thought I couldn't do any harm, so I went ahead and tried removing the 0.002" or so of wobble from my own 1023. It was mostly gone in about 30 minutes, and to improve it further, I had to use an indicator with 10X the resolution .. I needed one that would read to 0.0001". With that in hand, I went after the last little wiggle and got it down to less than 0.0003" .. and THAT is just under a third of a thousandth of an inch. One of the best things I've ever done for my Grizz. All in all, it took maybe an hour, but I didn't have the table off which would make access easier, and probably shave a bit of time.

Shoot, with the table off, you could make up a holding device and mount a die grinder in there to cut the flange perfect in seconds.

Either way, it's easier to do the tuning with the machine intact, 'cause I seriously doubt Grizz will send you a new saw .. a new arbor & bearings .. MAYBE .. a new saw .. I doubt. Learn to properly diagnose & repair your own equipment .. the time will come that you will need to use these principles and it will be far easier if you master them now.

[Shawn Siegrist]

I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base to mount it to. I locked in the magnetic base and set up the indicator on the arbor and then on the arbor flange. Both measured 6 thousandths of run out as I spun the arbor by hand. To spin the arbor I moved the belts slowly, and did not touch the arbor at all. If I put any pressure on the arbor housing I get additional movement as well.

After removing the top I tightened down all of the bolts holding the trunions in place, a couple were loose. Reattached the top, squared the top to the T tracks using a square. Using the same square check the fence and made sure that it was slightly out of square away from the saw blade. Checked to make sure the fence was flat as well.

Ran a test cut, still have saw marks on the bottom 1/4" of the board. Top of the board doesn't have saw marks but it isn't as smooth as it was on my inlaws Rigid.

As the blade slows down I can see wobble in the blade, it isn't much but there is definite wobble.

Checked the belts, the first belt has some slack in it, the second belt is a little tighter, and the third belt is the tightest of all. Shouldn't all three belts have the same tension?

Any suggestions, comments, or questions?


Thanks,
Shawn

[Glen Butler]

I have a dial indicator and a magnetic base to mount it to. I locked in the magnetic base and set up the indicator on the arbor and then on the arbor flange. Both measured 6 thousandths of run out as I spun the arbor by hand. To spin the arbor I moved the belts slowly, and did not touch the arbor at all. If I put any pressure on the arbor housing I get additional movement as well.

Thanks,
Shawn

It's good to know that you measured the threads and the flange. Wow .006 on the flange. That's terrible. It goes without saying your gonna need to replace that. Good luck calling Grizzly tomorrow. Hope you get it up and running soon.

[Rich Aldrich]

It could be the arbor flange is not machined properly.

The bearngs on my G1023 spun on the arbor, but I had a lot of vibration. Runout was 0.003"

It seem to cut good for quite a while. When my rips started getting wider than the scale was calibrated, I took it apart and change the bearings. That is when I found the bearings spun on the arbor and had to replace the arbor. I bought the arbor from Grizzly, but bought the bearings from Motion Industries. This happend about 5 to 6 years after I got the saw.

The problem was there was silicone in the housing and caused the bore to be oblong. When I got the bore clean and measured it with an inside mic, the bore was very good and within bearing fit tolerance.

[Russ Jensen]

My 1023SL that I bought in October roached 1 of the bearings in about 5 hours of use. Maybe they have hit a bad batch or something. Their tech support cheerfully replaced the bearings and the arbor shaft just in case I damaged it taking the old bearings off - fairly simple job only takes about 30 minutes start to finish. Their tech walked me throught the whole process. Top notch support.

[Matt Meiser]

So what did Grizzly say?

[Shawn Siegrist]

Problem solved!

Replaced the V belts with link belts, all three are now tensioned the same. Squared the top to the blade using a brand new "T" square. Checked the Fence with a brand new straight edge, found a dip in the middle, shimmed it out. Squared the fence to the blade using the new "T" square. Ran a test cut and saw marks were gone!

Replacing the belts has the run out at the arbor down to .001. The belts had formed to the shape of the pulleys and the motor wasn't tensioned properly.


Thank you everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.

I did call Grizzly Monday afternoon, left a message for the Tech that I have been dealing with, he was on his lunch break, still have not heard back from him.

[Jim O'Dell]

Glad you got it taken care of. I've thought about changing the belts out to links on my new saw, but I don't have a problem I'm chasing at this point, so I guess I'll leave them alone for now.
Enjoy the saw!!! Jim.

[Shawn Siegrist]

Well I thought I had everything straightened out with the tablesaw, but ran it last night and the saw marks are back. Checked the run out with the saw blade attached and I have .004 of run out. Made a mark on the arbor flange, loosened the blade and spun it a 1/2 turn, retightened the blade and I still have .004 of run out at the same spot on the arbor. I don't know what else to do. I don't know if the problem is in the arbor or if it is something else. I'm going to contact Grizzly today and see what they say.

[Mike Black Milford, MI]

Shawn,

Did you call Grizzly tech support? How is the repair going?

[Shawn Siegrist]

Spoke with grizzly tech yesterday and a new arbor will be shipped to me. I hope that take care of the problem. I've been a month with out a saw and I'm behind on work that I promised and now I'm turning away additional work until the saw is fixed. Not a good situation.

[scott spencer]

Spoke with grizzly tech yesterday and a new arbor will be shipped to me. I hope that take care of the problem. I've been a month with out a saw and I'm behind on work that I promised and now I'm turning away additional work until the saw is fixed. Not a good situation.

Shawn - Even with 0.004" of runout can't you still make functional cuts with the saw?

[Shawn Siegrist]

I could if I had a funcitonal jointer, my brand new G0452 is defective also. The outfeed bed drops .020 over 11". I'm trying to get Grizzly to send me replacement parts but they want me to send the jointer to them first.

[scott spencer]

Gotta handplane?

[Shawn Siegrist]

No handplane that will do what I want, haven't ventured down that road yet. But with the luck I'm having with power tools I think I should have gone primitive instead of with power tools!

[scott spencer]

Sounds like a tough situation all around... :(

[Shawn Siegrist]

Grizzly is shipping me a new arbor, don't know when it will arrive yet.

[michael case]

This is no good. I fear the quality of the bearings are not upto snuff or there is too much flex on the arbor. I had a Powematic 66 with the same problem. I hope the new arbor does it. Let us know.

[Chip Lindley]

To spin the arbor I moved the belts slowly, and did not touch the arbor at all. If I put any pressure on the arbor housing I get additional movement as well.


Shawn, if you have movement in the whole arbor assembly, then something else is loose; the housing on its pivot shaft, the rack and pinnion raise/lower gear, or the tilt gear. You will have to track down where the play is, by trial and error.

A new arbor may or may not fix your problem. Unless the arbor was machined out-of-round, or bent, or the flange is not machined perpendicular to the shaft, it is not the problem.

Loose fit between bearings and their housings is room for error. The bearings should have no play in their cast iron housings. If your saw has many miles on it, and the saw had a slight amount of play in it when brand new, the cast iron could have wallowed out, making the discrepancy larger over time.

The bearings should have no play when spun radially, or push/pulled end-to-end. Check for movement by grabbing the arbor pulley, then the arbor nose, and trying to move the arbor in the machine. Do it twice, with the dial indicator set for radial movement of the shaft, then against the arbor flange to detect in/out movement.

If your test shows movement of the arbor, use thin shim stock and gap-filling Loctite between the CI housing and NEW BEARINGS when you reinstall your new arbor. This will take out all excess arbor play.

[Jim Oliver]

Shawn,
Are they also sending you new bearings? I just replaced my arbor and wasn't sure about the bearings, so I changed them also. These are inexpensive bearings, so if you plan to use the old ones, you may want to reconsider and get them from Grizzly or pick some up. If you don't have an arbor press, you may want to take the arbor and bearings to a local shop to have the flange bearing pressed on. This will reduce the chance of damaging the bearing by tapping it on. Similarly, pushing the arbor back into the housing is best done with a bearing puller. You may be aware of this, but just thought I would pass it along after learning the hard way.

Good luck!
Jim

[Bob Wingard]

If your saw has many miles on it, and the saw had a slight amount of play in it when brand new, the cast iron could have wallowed out, making the discrepancy larger over time.

Unless a bearing seized up and spun, I don't see any way the cast iron housing could be "wallowed out"

[Shawn Siegrist]

Arbor has been shipped, should be here tomorrow or Thursday. I'm betting on Thursday because we are going to get hit by another major snow storm tonight and tomorrow. I'm probably going to remove the faulty arbor tonight, once I get the new one I will update everyone on how it turns out. Hopefully the new arbor corrects the problem.


Shawn

[Shawn Siegrist]

They are shipping the arbor and housing, weighs 13lbs according to ups.

[Shawn Siegrist]

Installed the new arbor, the threaded arbor shaft is dead on, however the flange has almost 2 thousandths of run out. A friend of mine who has a machine shop is going to come over and look at to see if there is a way to true it up with out removing the arbor. Someone suggested that earlier in this thread. I swear I am snake bitten, every tool that I purchased from Grizzly has had issues!

[Jim O'Dell]

I'm not sure 2 thou is worth worrying about. As others have and will say, this is wood...it moves more than that on it's own. If this was a metal mill, then I'd keep seeking perfection. JMO Jim

[Shawn Siegrist]

At the blade it is magnified to 3.5 thousandths of run out, which is leaving saw marks.

[Jim O'Dell]

Yeah, I thought about the blade magnifying it after I posted, then got busy (work interferes with so many things:rolleyes:) and didn't get back. Definitely worth looking at then. Let us know the outcome! Jim.