Shaper tooling question - shaker/mission style doors

[Mark Bolton]

Wondering what the consensus is for running these cabinet doors on the shaper is with regards to tooling?

I have to run some doors out of native lumber we have sawn and dried. Initially I had thought of picking up something like the amana SC553 adjustable set. As usual however I am thinking of about a half a dozen different options trying to pick the best for the long haul.

What I was kicking around was switching instead to some groovers, with spacers and shims, rather than the set. I thought having the groovers inthe drawer would be a better all around investment letting me use them for other operations where the amana would just be a dedicated set with little other use. Of course the groovers will be more money.

Another issue was that the amana set only makes a 3/8" deep groove whereas with the groovers I would have options for bigger doors. The only drawback I could see is that with the groovers I likely wouldnt mill the tip of the tenon where the amana set cuts the entire profile.

Anyway, thats been my thought process. I am leaning towards getting a couple wider groovers (3/8" or 1/2") for making the tenons and a smaller groover (1/4") for the groove. The panels will always be solid stock or 1/2" ply rabbeted or coved edge on the back. So of course I can size my panel to the groove rather than the other way around.

My only criteria for this is to be able to do the tenon in a single pass rather than having a single groover/rabbeting cutter and flipping the piece to make the two cuts on the tenon.

Thanks for any input,
Mark

[Cameron Reddy]

Mark,

I can't believe you've asked EXACTLY the question I've been dealing with. I've also been reluctant to buy the Amana set. I don't like the 3/8" tenon either.

Other than going with separate groovers, which I'm about to experiment with, I've looked at getting one of the 6 cutter sets from Freeborn with the optional 1/2" tenon groover. These sets will apparently cut the same profile as the Amana. http://www.freeborntool.com/cope_and_pattern.htm See the bottom of the linked page for the option to get the 1/2" cutter for the tenon.

Somewhere, and at the moment I can't remember, I just recently saw a set of cutters that would cut a 5/8" tenon.

I've also been looking for a stub spindle to use with my Powermatic 2700. I can't figure out why no one makes them anymore.

Cameron Reddy

[Chip Lindley]

Hi Mark! IMO, you will be happier with the results of a dedicated set of rail/stile cutters than trying to match up individual groovers. The *set* will give you a perfect mating joint, without any trial and error.

Do as many do. Use the set for your cabinet project, then sell them off on eBay or CL. A rail/stile set used for only one set of cabinets is still practically new. You can recoup at least half your investment. A nice set of new cabinets should be worth the other half!

[Brad Shipton]

I do mission style joinery with a grooving cutterhead quite frequently. Not so much for cabinetry, but lots of other projects. If this was for a single set of cabinets I agree with Chip, but if you have other plans, such as doors, or tenons for furniture work, then this is not a crazy idea.

You can get a single cutterhead that is splits into two. It can be used as groover or as a tenoner when you flip them over. Thats the type I have, but it is for thicker stock than typical cabinetry work. Here I agree that you will need a pair of cutters, but selecting a split style for your tenons will be handy in the future. The versions with the scoring blades help to reduce tearout and if you can afford one with removable chamfer cutters that is even handier.

The trick with the setup is to measure (calipers work best) and write it all down in a book. If you do this, then it is relatively quick to setup the next time. I have a binder full of setups.

Brad

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks for the info. Just got in and reply on the iPhone so don't mind the typos.

Doing a bit more research I am really leaning towards the groover option for the versatility. We don't do cabinet doors much as we normally order them in when they are needed. The local material is the only reason we are making these. However we do often times use the groovers we have currently on other jobs and to add to the collection would be beneficial.

Tonight I pulled out the grainger book and found 1 1/4" I.D. Shims in sets of 19 (one of every size) for 18$. A couple of the sets and a couple spacers would give infinate adjustability.

I guess at this point I am thinking two 3/4 groovers, a 1/4" to start. I am interested in the heads you spoke of Brad. Any references?

Nothing is easy.
Mark

[Jeff Nolan]

I have the Amana 553 set and it works great. The 3/8" tenon hasn't been a problem for me.

If you require more tenon you could always machine that separately; the value of the 553 set is that you get so many shims that you can accommodate any sheet good for the frame panel. I've used the heck out of this set lately and thank myself every time for having sprung for it.

[Peter Quinn]

Mark, we did a job last winter that involved a lot of wainscot, floor to ceiling wall to wall type thing, with square edges that got panel mold, so they start out life similar to mission style doors. The boss got a pair of 5/8" of groovers from freeborn, and a 1/4" slot cutter we already had. It worked out well, and now as you said we have some groovers for other purposes on hand.

Keep in mind that if you intend to use the groovers as a door set to cope stub tennons, they need to go out for sharpening as a set or things get weird. It is nice to have a cabinet set for the sticking cut that cuts the entire edge of the stock, so you can clean up any mill/saw marks and use a back fence to dimension at the same time. I think you could achieve that with stock cutters as well if you buy the correct diameters. That would involve 5 groovers and a spacer, so its basically a cabinet set at that point.

A real tennon setup like Brad describes is a thing of beauty. They usually have one up shear and one down shear cutter to minimize chipout, and some insert versions have scoring knives on the edges to reduce tear out when used as a slotter. But that is a much bigger investment in tooling for a single job unless it plays into other work. Frankly for a single job mission doors can be easily done with a dado set on the TS as long as you surface all your stock before milling the joinery.

Another thing we have done is to run a regular cutter set and orient the profile to the inside of the cabinets, which presents a mission face to the room. Some sets do not allow a big enough flat on the non profile side to do this, but the freeborn sets do. This assumes that the customer does not mind the profile to the inside, and IME most don't care, but its worth verifying. Another option from Amana is the profile pro insert set up with HSS knives. They have a T&G set up in several different sizes, and they work great. Very versatile set up.

[Jeff Nolan]

Peter,
For years I used a regular raised panel profile and turned it inside out, as you describe, to get a frame and panel look with minimal effort. Worked great. I had a job recently, a bunch of wainscotting funny enough, and I used the Amana set for the first time... I won't go back. This shaper cutter set gave me perfectly mated profiles with minimal setup effort.

[Sam Layton]

Mark, check out Infinity shaper cutters, they have some good shaker/mission cutters.

Sam

[Brad Shipton]

Mark, I dont usually mention the type of cutters I have in my little shop. I am a bit nuts when it comes to my shaper. It is my favorite machine and I kinda get a kick out of using industrial cutters.

I have a Garniga Multi-Iso that I use very frequently. It is not cheap (like $1200), but since it is 180mm in diameter I can cut up to 55mm tenons with this. It has scribers, adjustable chamfers, and rad tips. It comes with all the spacers you could ever need. This is undoubtedly the handiest cutter I have. A lot of the reason for the cost is the fact that all the blades are inserts. That really ramps up the cost. Once you look at one of these you will quickly realize the reason for the cost. It is a bit of an engineering marvel considering the degree of accuracy it is machined to and its complexity.

Garniga also has more reasonable versions that will only have the top and bottom scribers. I have one that is 250mm in diameter and will cut up to 90mm tenons for passage doors. It was around $500 I think. This version has 3 cutters on both the top and bottom halves. The advantage of having three cutters on each half is pretty obvious once you start making tenons. Once you flip the top and bottom halves only the blades on each half will work for the top or bottom tenon cheek. The scribers are very important. These thin blades lead the cut ever so slightly and sever the fibers before the big cutter does the rest. These reduce tearout a lot.

Leitz, FS Tool, Royce, and a ton of others make these, but they are all about the same price.

Ok, maybe I am totally nuts.
Brad

[Cameron Reddy]

Please forgive me if this is a jack of any kind. But I'd like to know what you guys think of the Freeborn option of getting a 1/2" groover as part of their 6 cutter sets. You have to make fence adjustments moving from rail to stile...

Or should I just go with the Amana dedicated cutters.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,
For years I used a regular raised panel profile and turned it inside out, as you describe, to get a frame and panel look with minimal effort. Worked great. I had a job recently, a bunch of wainscotting funny enough, and I used the Amana set for the first time... I won't go back. This shaper cutter set gave me perfectly mated profiles with minimal setup effort.

I hear you Jeff. A matched set is a great thing. I'm simply suggesting that it can be hard to justify a dedicated cutter set for a profile that is easily achieved in a variety of ways and is not used regularly. If you do a lot of mission doors or wainscot, a dedicated set seems like a great option to me well worth the cost.

[Steve Griffin]

I've probably done 20 kitchens the last few years in shaker style.

Sorry to ruin your tool purchasing fun, but ALL I've used is an inexpensive 1/4" rabbiting bit. I climb cut the grooves with this on the shaper, and then use the table saw and a premium dado set for the tenons. It takes two passes though, which adds about 5 minutes to a $20,000 kitchen...

Oh well, not everything has to be expensive....

-Steve

[Ron Bontz]

I have the Amana 556 set. Seems like it is a 7/16 tennon. If I am only doing one or two cabinet doors then I opt. for a 1/4" carbide spiral bit and increase the depth to 1/2"-3/4" for the rail tennons on my router table. Otherwise I would prefer my shaper and the Amana cutters. Good luck. :)