Anybody affected by the Toyota recall/stop selling order?

[Louis Brandt]

Hello,

I was just curious to know how many of you may be affected by the announcement that Toyota has been ordered to stop selling much of its 2010 line of vehicles. The recall also includes vehicles back to 2007.

Louis

[brian watson]

Have 2 Toyotas -- one which isimpacted. However, when i called them and said ok what do we do, their response was: well just be aware of it and if you experience any problems take it to the dealership. I got to wait on hold for 15 minutes for that wonderful information.

So no plans appear to exist for the fix right now.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't own a Toyota but I've been following the situation fairly closely. I'm amazed at how poorly Toyota has handled this situation. What they should have done in the beginning is to say, "The safety of our customers is the most important thing to us, and we want to protect our hard won reputation for quality. We don't know exactly what's causing the problem but we have identified several preventive measures and we're recalling all affected vehicles to apply those fixes."

It's fairly clear to most observers that the problem is in the "fly by wire" system of the accelerator but amazingly, Toyota has not put in the simple fix of forcing the engine to idle when the brake is depressed while the engine is above a certain RPM. Every other car manufacturer who uses the "fly by wire" accelerator system has that fail safe programmed in.

This debacle is going to be extremely expensive for Toyota, both to fix the problem and in lost sales.

Mike

[Paul Ryan]

Many times consumers/owners find out about recalls sooner than the dealers. And then the proper recall parts are usually behind that as well. They can be back ordered, all kinds of other issues. But this is the 1st time I have ever heard of a manufacturer not knowing what to do next. It appears to me Toyota is stumped if they have shut down sales and production. Shutting down production is the big thing. That tells me they dont have the proper fix yet and that is kind of scary because it could be months before cars starting getting fixed. Now at least owners know there is problem and should be aware. And it is an issue that doesn't occur very often, as with most recalls. But with the amount of cars being recalled and them being behind as it sounds, it will be months before most cars are repaired. But just relax the media always makes a bigger deal out of it. Think of it this way, there are thousands of cars that are effected that have 100k of more miles on them and haven't had a problem. Yes, it could happen and you should be aware, but dont loose any sleep over it. And do your self a favor and wait a few weeks before you call the dealer and get the same answer, "wait untill you get a notice in the mail, then give us a call and set up an apointment."

[Jim O'Dell]

The company I work for has 2 Toyota dealerships. I'm not sure how they are dealing with it. We got a memo today about the Pontiac Vibe, which is built by Toyota for GM. It gives us some of what I call basic common sense information to give to customers. It also says that the Vibe has had NO reported issues or customer complaints on the gas pedal sticking. I can only guess that if this holds true, that since the diagnostics between the 2 brands is different (my techs using a GM diagnostic computer can not completely access Toyota onboard computers for diagnostics) that there is something in the computer that is different and possibly contributing to the problem. But this is just a guess on my part.
When I heard about the family in California that called 911 and were traveling over 100 mph headed for a dead end, my first thought was, if you know you are headed for a crash, why not pop the trans into neutral? So what if it burns the engine up??? Then when I heard that that driver was a California Highway Patrol officer, I was really confused. If someone that has been trained to think under extreme stress situations can't think to do this, how is anyone else going to? If anyone had a chance of recovering in that situation, I would think someone in that position would have the second best chance, right behind fighter pilots. Jim.

[Mike Henderson]

When I heard about the family in California that called 911 and were traveling over 100 mph headed for a dead end, my first thought was, if you know you are headed for a crash, why not pop the trans into neutral? So what if it burns the engine up??? Then when I heard that that driver was a California Highway Patrol officer, I was really confused. If someone that has been trained to think under extreme stress situations can't think to do this, how is anyone else going to? If anyone had a chance of recovering in that situation, I would think someone in that position would have the second best chance, right behind fighter pilots. Jim.
Blaming the victim is not very productive. The car should have NEVER run away like that.

Mike

[Jeff Monson]

The thing that strikes me the most, is they keep blaming it on floormats? And now there are cases where the mats were in the trunk. I would think a gas pedal could have modified to eliminate this kind of issue. I think there is going to be alot on Toyota's plate before this is over, maybe a few closet doors opened.

I cant imagine the chaos at Toyota's engineering dept. right now, trying to develop new software that most likely took them years to develop. I wish them the best, as no auto mfg. can afford less revenue nowdays.

On the other side I wonder what this will cost Toyota in the long run?
14 deaths and millions of cars to update.

[Belinda Barfield]

Blaming the victim is not very productive. The car should have NEVER run away like that.

Mike

Mike,

I may be wrong but I don't think Jim was attempting to blame the victim. I believe he was trying to make the point that if someone with extensive training in how to handle a situation like that can't think what to do, your average driver doesn't stand a chance if it happens to them.

[Robert Parrish]

I have 2 Toyota. My 2007 Tacoma received a warning letter in November but does not seem to be affected by the current mess. My wife has a 1999 Camry that just had its first repair this week. We had to replace the timing belt and water pump for a total of $670, not bad for a 12 year old car and 76000 miles. If they could build them right then why not now?

[Matt Meiser]

Blaming the victim is not very productive. The car should have NEVER run away like that.

Mike

Where did he blame the guy? He said if he didn't have a chance, then who else would?

There's an article in the Detroit News today where its says that Toyota legally should have stopped selling the cars 5 days ago when the recall was issued. I suspect that will put them in a bigger bind, legally and in the court of public opinion.

http://detnews.com/article/20100127/AUTO01/1270400/U.S.--Toyota-was-legally-required-to-stop-selling-models

I've also already seen a claim (by an individual, not by Toyota) that the federal government is forcing the recall and stop sale order to help GM, since they now basically own GM. I'm sure the conspiracy theorists are all over that one.

[Pat Germain]

Blaming the victim is not very productive. The car should have NEVER run away like that.

Mike

Well, I'm wondering if we have a situation similar to that of Audi years ago. One person crashed her Audi into her garage wall and claimed the car just ran away on her. Once the media got ahold of it, it seemed every time someone crashed an Audi, the driver claimed the car ran away on them.

Audi examined every inch of their cars. They spent countless hours trying to come with a situation, any situation, which could have caused the car to run away. They could not. In the end, they modified their cars requiring the driver to press on the brake before it could be put into gear. All manufacturers now do the same thing and it's because of Audi's experience.

So, this is why I'm wondering if the problem is much smaller, or much less severe, than it seems. It could be a few people had a problem. Then, every time someone crashed a Toyota they claimed they had the same problem. Or, it could indeed be a genuine throttle problem.

My son and daughter each drive a Corolla; 2008 and 2009. Apparently, the 2009 has been recalled. But I'm not sure about the 2008. I told my kids to be sure to look into it and, in the very unlikely event the engine runs away, put it in nuetral. The engine won't blow up because it is equipped with a rev-limiter.

[Ben Martin]

On the radio this morning on my way in to work they were talking about Toyota cancelling 8 vehicle lines, did anyone else hear this? I had to get out before they finished the story...

[Matt Meiser]

Ben, that's what everyone is talking about. They are stopping production temporarily and have stopped the sale of 8 models.

[Jim O'Dell]

Blaming the victim is not very productive. The car should have NEVER run away like that.

Mike

I agree Mike! Go back and reread what I said. I never blamed the "victim". As I said, that was my first thought, why they didn't just do X. And I also said if someone as highly trained to think in stress situations, as a Highway Patrolman, can't react quickly to get out of this situation, how can anyone else? Jim.

[Pat Germain]

Ben, that's what everyone is talking about. They are stopping production temporarily and have stopped the sale of 8 models.

Yes, to be clear, Toyota isn't cancelling the vehicle lines. Rather, they have temporary suspended producing and selling many of their vehicles. But that's still a pretty drastic move.

[Walt Nicholson]

I'm sure this will generate an overwhelming amount of "the best car on the road" responses but Toyota has had a huge quality problem for the last several years that is just now starting to come to light. There are several class action suits in the works over the Tundra frames rusting through, spring hangers falling off after rusting out, etc. Another group suing over the Prius randomly losing it's brakes (tied in to the regenerative braking system on the hybrid) and then the dealer can find no problem, similar to the accelerator problem. A former Toyota executive now turned whistle blower about Toyota ignoring serious quality problems that were safety related for several years. NHTSA is currently investigating if the "floor mat problem" was just a ploy to cover up the real issue of sudden accelleration until they could find a fix. Toyota bought back thousands of Lexus models in another class action suit over engine sludge that barely ever made it to the press. When some of these other issues (that folks in the industry already know about) start to become public knowledge, the Toyota road is going to get pretty rocky. I am not a Toyota "basher", I am just against big business trying to cover up and not admit their problems until people die and they are forced to. If you own a Toyota now you better like it a lot because the resale value just went in the toilet because the company did not do their job. Some of us are old enough to remember what the acceleration issues did to Audi several years ago. Just my opinion. Now I will wait for all the rocks to come my way.

[Matt Meiser]

Toyota has had a huge quality problem for the last several years that is just now starting to come to light.

About a year and a half ago I sat next to a Toyota quality engineer on a plane who indicated the same to me. The basic gist was that they grew so fast they lost control.

[Jeff Monson]

I'm sure this will generate an overwhelming amount of "the best car on the road" responses but Toyota has had a huge quality problem for the last several years that is just now starting to come to light. There are several class action suits in the works over the Tundra frames rusting through, spring hangers falling off after rusting out, etc. Another group suing over the Prius randomly losing it's brakes (tied in to the regenerative braking system on the hybrid) and then the dealer can find no problem, similar to the accelerator problem. A former Toyota executive now turned whistle blower about Toyota ignoring serious quality problems that were safety related for several years. NHTSA is currently investigating if the "floor mat problem" was just a ploy to cover up the real issue of sudden accelleration until they could find a fix. Toyota bought back thousands of Lexus models in another class action suit over engine sludge that barely ever made it to the press. When some of these other issues (that folks in the industry already know about) start to become public knowledge, the Toyota road is going to get pretty rocky. I am not a Toyota "basher", I am just against big business trying to cover up and not admit their problems until people die and they are forced to. If you own a Toyota now you better like it a lot because the resale value just went in the toilet because the company did not do their job. Some of us are old enough to remember what the acceleration issues did to Audi several years ago. Just my opinion. Now I will wait for all the rocks to come my way.

Walt, I certainly wont cast any stones at ya, I thought right from the start of this that a "floormat issue" would be an easy recall, IMO its a coverup to buy some more time to find the real issue. As I stated before I'm pretty sure there will be some closet doors opened in a short amount of time for Toyota.

I do remember the Audi problem from a few years back, it was costly for Audi's reputation, but I think they have rebounded nicely.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree Mike! Go back and reread what I said. I never blamed the "victim". As I said, that was my first thought, why they didn't just do X. And I also said if someone as highly trained to think in stress situations, as a Highway Patrolman, can't react quickly to get out of this situation, how can anyone else? Jim.
Okay, sorry. I read it you saying he should have thought to put it in neutral. Just my misreading.

Mike

[Pat Germain]

I'm sure this will generate an overwhelming amount of "the best car on the road" responses but Toyota has had a huge quality problem for the last several years that is just now starting to come to light...

I'm a Toyota fan, but I agree there have been some serious quality issues. I think Toyota will pull out of this OK, just like Audi did.

[Paul Ryan]

Personally I am not a toyota fan. I have been in the car industry my whole life and I am still involved. I have owned and worked on toyotas. I have been preaching for a couple of years now about the quality issues of their products. I have experience to back up my claims. Bottom line is toyota is suffering from the same things that have plaged GM, Chrysler, and Ford for years. They have lost the quality control over their suppliers, in favor of cheap quick parts. It will really be interesting to see how toyota is perceived after this. If this a software issue it would have been fixed by now. My feeling it is something more mechanical. I haven't looked into if all of these models run the "fly by wire" throttle bodies. If that is the case they more than likely have purchased all of the devices from the same company. And from the way it sounds they arn't sure the exact problem.

Every company handles recalls differently. Some recalls are mandated by the government due to a saftey issue. Others are a customer satisfaction recall. From my experiences Ford has done more customer satisfaction recalls than anyone. My experiences with Ford recalls go back to about 1995. Chrysler, GM, and Toyota are more saftey based recalls. They have some customer satisfaction recalls but most are saftey based.

Toyota has alway been real "hush hush" about recalls. They usually dont generate any recall unless absolutely necessary. In this case it again looks to me like they have done everything possible to keep it under wraps. Now it has kind of "bit them in the but". It is kind of the old Richard Nixon disaster. If they would come out and tell the truth right away it wouldn't be so bad. But you cover and cover and then it all of a sudden blows up in your face.

It just goes to prove every manufacturer on the planet has issues with quality control. We can go through the list and name POS's from every company and the imports are no different. I am convinced that the imports are no better than the current domestics. That may not be the case of the previous generations of vehicles. But I believe the late model domestic machines are equal to and in some cases superior to the imports.

[Myk Rian]

I am being affected by the Toyota recall. My Ford stock is climbing. :)

[Donny Lawson]

It was also said this morning that it does not affect the ones made in Japan.If your serial # starts with a JT you are fine.What is it they are doing right that we are doing wrong? I've owned 22 Toyota's over the past 16 yrs. Yes, I like to trade,and I LOVE Toyota's.I currently own 4 of them.3 Trucks(Mine) 1 car (Wifes).Hopefully they will get it fixed because I'm getting the trading fever again.
Donny

[Mike Henderson]

I am being affected by the Toyota recall. My Ford stock is climbing. :)
Maybe this will change people's attitude about the quality of American cars. Ford and GM have come a long ways in quality but many people perceive the Japanese cars as still having higher quality. This debacle could change that perception.

Mike

[Jim O'Dell]

Mike, I am saying that he should have put it in neutral...but if someone with his training can't come up with that, how would us normal people ever think of it in the heat of battle? It's easy to come up with a solution sitting here thinking about it in my easy chair. Much tougher when your life is flashing before your eyes. I don't blame the victims of this problem that has become a tragedy to too many innocent people. I will blame the manufacturer if they knew about it and covered it up. If that turns out to be the case, I think everyone involved should be brought up on manslaughter charges for each death. But I don't for a minute think that would ever happen.
I do hope that anyone that reads this thread will think about what to do in case this happens to them. Being prepared as to what to do could save someone's life. Possibly some one you love. Jim.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The thing that strikes me the most, is they keep blaming it on floormats? .

Floor mats is a different problem, different fix. This new problem involves the sensor in the pedal mechanism itself. My wife's Lexus has the floor mat thing, but not the new problem.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Mike,

I may be wrong but I don't think Jim was attempting to blame the victim. I believe he was trying to make the point that if someone with extensive training in how to handle a situation like that can't think what to do, your average driver doesn't stand a chance if it happens to them.

I agree. Also, most of the crashes caused by this problem happen when the Toyota rear-ends another car. Remember that taking the foot off the pedal causes the car to stay at speed (usually sticking at it's setting), not zoom to 100. In traffic, this happens faster than most people can realize what's happened and leaves zero time to understand that the car didn't slow down and that more pressure is needed on the brake pedal/shift to "N".
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Maybe this will change people's attitude about the quality of American cars. Ford and GM have come a long ways in quality but many people perceive the Japanese cars as still having higher quality. This debacle could change that perception.

Mike

Maybe, but the cars built in Japan aren't affected. Only the US made model are. Did a US manufacturer supply the defective part?

But....I agree with the sentiment. I'm on my 4th Chrysler mini-van since 1987. I'll buy another when the time comes.
.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Maybe I'm being a jerk, but I don't think that expecting people would know to put it in neutral is unreasonable. Taking time to call 911 and expecting that they can somehow magically fix the problem for you is naive. Slamming the brakes, putting it into neutral, trashing the engine by slamming it into 1st, shutting the key off, or finding somewhere good to ditch it would have all been better solutions. But I think Mitchell is right - most of these are very quick rear-ending accidents.

I really hope this ends up being a media-fulled floormat problem. It's sad that, given all the technology at our disposal, we still use a mechanical cable for such a critical application...

[Neal Clayton]

my truck is affected apparently, i got a letter about it. but since it's a manual i don't think i'll bother. not really a safety hazard when you have the clutch.

[Mike Henderson]

I really hope this ends up being a media-fulled floormat problem. It's sad that, given all the technology at our disposal, we still use a mechanical cable for such a critical application...
It's not a cable - it's electronic. On the accelerator is a sending unit that sends a position signal to the electronics. The electronics then meters the proper amount of gasoline through the electronic fuel injection. There's no direct connection between the accelerator and the engine. Reports of "sticking accelerator pedals" on Toyota cars increased significantly after Toyota went to the electronic accelerator system a number of years ago and Toyota never did anything about it.

What's so upsetting is that Toyota could have put in a fail safe. They can detect if the brake is being applied and can compare the engine RPMs. If the RPMs are above a certain level, they can bring the engine down to idle. That might not prevent some of the rear end collisions but it would have prevented that tragic accident we discussed earlier. All other car manufacturers that I'm aware of have that fail safe in their electronics systems. Why Toyota failed to put it in their system is beyond me.

Mike

[Oh, on that accident we mentioned, it was one of the back seat passengers who called 911, not the driver. Also, that car had the push button "start". To kill the engine you had to hold it in three seconds. Also, the car was a loaner while their car was being worked on by the dealer so they weren't familiar with it - in fact I believe they had just left the dealer. It was an automatic transmission car. No one thought to put the car in neutral, not the driver, not any of the passengers, not the 911 operator, no one. But can any of us say we would have done better in those conditions?]

[Mitchell Andrus]

my truck is affected apparently, i got a letter about it. but since it's a manual i don't think i'll bother. not really a safety hazard when you have the clutch.

Anyone buying your truck is likely to ask if you had this safety item fixed. Carfax may spot this. It's free... just do it - before you need to submit an insurance claim.

Whenever I have a decision to make, other than where to eat lunch today, I try to imagine the explanation I'll offer to a jury if my decision is remotely likely to injure someone and land me in hot water.
.

[Matt Meiser]

I am being affected by the Toyota recall. My Ford stock is climbing. :)

I think that might have more to do with this just announced news: Ford earns $2.7B in 2009, first profit in 4 years (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Ford-earns-27B-in-2009-first-apf-2363384737.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=2&asset=&ccode=)

[Dan Friedrichs]

It's not a cable - it's electronic.
That's what I meant - it's sad that a cable is considered the more safe, reliable option, compared to something as simple as a variable resistor on the accelerator. You would think implementing that would be trivial. And like you said, Mike, why didn't they provide for some fail-safe related to the brake?



But can any of us say we would have done better in those conditions?
No, probably not...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Dan,

As someone who is currently and has been working in electronics for over 40 years, I'd prefer a cable over potentiometer or a digital encoder. Of course, I've replaced too many encoders and pots over the years.

[Jim O'Dell]

Most new vehicles have been fly-by-wire for several years. I remember when Ford first came out with it on the Navigator/Expedition. We had numerous complaints that the response time was off. They would push the gas pedal to pass a car, and there was a slight lag. Their old Navigator didn't do that. The difference was the fly- by-wire vs the old cable. That has been remedied in subsequent systems. The new system probably allows the car's computer to shut off the gas pedal in certain situations (OnStar theft recovery in some new vehicles where they can basically stop a stolen vehicle by shutting off the gas pedal control. Engine continues to idle for power steering and brakes. The thief just loses control of speed and coasts to a stop). I'm sure there are other situations that the control would be useful too. A agree that this will be interesting to watch unfold. I pray that there will not be any more accidents relating to what appears to be a flaw of some sort. Jim.

[Matt Sollars]

I'm affected by both the floormat and pedal I think.
Haven't had any trouble with either, but I think I'm on the list.
2008 Tundra Double cab

[Walt Nicholson]

If you have a watch with a second hand watch it click off 7 seconds. That's the 0 to 60 time for the Lexus E350 that was in the crash with 0 to 100 at just under 14 seconds and top speed limited to 136 mph. Now consider that you were on a busy freeway already going 50 to 60 plus and you suddenly go full throttle. How quick to you get to 100 plus? Meanwhile (as you are overtaking traffic in all lanes at an ever increasing speed and dodging from lane to lane to prevent a horrible collision) take one hand from the wheel and move the 6 speed automatic transmission through it's gated (to simulate manual shifting) steps back to neutral. The manual states "pull the console-mounted shift lever to the left, then tip it forward to move up the gear ladder one step at a time, or click it backward to shift down the ladder". Keep in mind you are doing this with one hand on the wheel at well over 100 mph with everyone in the car screaming at you. The other alternative with this car is to (again while you roar through traffic at 100 plus and assuming your salesperson told you this or you read it in the deep recesses of your owner's manual) take one hand off the wheel and firmly push in the "start" button (there is no key to turn off on this car) and hold it in for a full 3 seconds. How far do you travel in 3 seconds at over 100 mph and how many vehicles do you have to dodge with one hand on the wheel? During all of this you probably don't even have time to get angry at Toyota for saving a few bucks by not installing the cheap little brake overide (returns the engine to idle if the brake is applied under full throttle) that most of the other manufacturers use. Sorry for the rant but human life is a precious thing and I get fired up when companies take it lightly.

[Pat Germain]

Maybe this will change people's attitude about the quality of American cars. Ford and GM have come a long ways in quality but many people perceive the Japanese cars as still having higher quality. This debacle could change that perception.

Mike

Ford has come a long way. Ford owners are now reporting reliability on par with Honda and Toyota.

GM still has a ways to go, but they are getting better. I heard GM is now offering 0% financing for people who want to dump their Toyota. I don't think this will be as successful as GM expects. I think Toyota owners who test drive a Chevrolet will be unimpressed by lackluster performance, mediocre fuel economy and a ride like a Radio Flyer wagon. Almost everyone I talk to who test drives or rents a GM car reports a similar experience.

Strangely, the Corvette proves GM can produce a great car. A friend of mine bought a new 'Vette awhile back and he took me for a ride. Of course, that car had gut-wrenching performance. And the fuel economy was better than one would expect. It handled great and even rode well. It was a great car all around. But then there's the Chevy Cobalt...

Outside the minivan category, Chrysler's quality is in the toilet. Chrysler owners report reliability below every other car available in America; lower than Hyundai and Kia. In fact, Consumer Reports has listed the Chrysler Sebring as the least reliable car for at least two years running. (Again, that's based on owner reports and not magazine staff.)

Let us remember it wasn't long ago when Ford was selling cars that exploded on impact. Toyota will get through this.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There is a sad theme to this that for some reason all of the car manufacturers fail to realize.

The 2nd most expensive thing the average person buys in their liftetime is a car. As such, it tends to be bought on a long buy cycle. I often go 10-15 years between buying vehicles.

You only have to get burned once .....severely burned by a vehicle to not buy that brand for an extemely long period of time.

I ordered a full-sized '83 Blazer. 5 transmissions in 4 1/2 years. I have not lost a transmission in any car before or since. The replacement vehicle I bought used...a Toyota 4-Runner. Drove it for 16 years and put 167, 000 miles on it. Same transmission. While the Blazer transmissions were replaced under warrantee, the vehicle spent 4 1/2 months out of 4 1/2 years in the garage.

Brake failures on the Blazer....We proved once the brakes got out of the warrantee period and I began taking care of the brakes, the problem was Chevy and the dealership's method of addressing the problems. Once I took over the maintenance on the brakes...they wore out without frequent failures.

Chevrolet's calloused regional service rep's calloused attitude ....well...I haven't bought another Chevy since dealing with this jerk.....bad combination....poor customer service and poor product.

and that from a former "Chevy man"....once a proud owner of a '56 2 door sedan Chevrolet....a '64 SS Impala convertible and a brand new '72 Malibu....

A reputation once damaged is nearly impossible to recover......

[Yitah Wu]

You forgot to mention that he was also pushing on the brakes as hard as he could - the rotors and calipers were totally burned up.

Some people may wonder why an experienced highway patrol officer didn't shift to neutral under those conditions. I would instead say that the conditions are so challenging that even an experienced highway patrol officer wasn't able to save himself and his family. A stuck throttle on a high powered car doesn't give you much room for error or a lot of time to think.

Quite a tragedy, and avoidable too. Floor mat retention clips have been pretty standard for many years now....





If you have a watch with a second hand watch it click off 7 seconds. That's the 0 to 60 time for the Lexus E350 that was in the crash with 0 to 100 at just under 14 seconds and top speed limited to 136 mph. Now consider that you were on a busy freeway already going 50 to 60 plus and you suddenly go full throttle. How quick to you get to 100 plus? Meanwhile (as you are overtaking traffic in all lanes at an ever increasing speed and dodging from lane to lane to prevent a horrible collision) take one hand from the wheel and move the 6 speed automatic transmission through it's gated (to simulate manual shifting) steps back to neutral. The manual states "pull the console-mounted shift lever to the left, then tip it forward to move up the gear ladder one step at a time, or click it backward to shift down the ladder". Keep in mind you are doing this with one hand on the wheel at well over 100 mph with everyone in the car screaming at you. The other alternative with this car is to (again while you roar through traffic at 100 plus and assuming your salesperson told you this or you read it in the deep recesses of your owner's manual) take one hand off the wheel and firmly push in the "start" button (there is no key to turn off on this car) and hold it in for a full 3 seconds. How far do you travel in 3 seconds at over 100 mph and how many vehicles do you have to dodge with one hand on the wheel? During all of this you probably don't even have time to get angry at Toyota for saving a few bucks by not installing the cheap little brake overide (returns the engine to idle if the brake is applied under full throttle) that most of the other manufacturers use. Sorry for the rant but human life is a precious thing and I get fired up when companies take it lightly.

[Paul Ryan]

I think Toyota owners who test drive a Chevrolet will be unimpressed by lackluster performance, mediocre fuel economy and a ride like a Radio Flyer wagon. Almost everyone I talk to who test drives or rents a GM car reports a similar experience.

Consumer Reports has listed the Chrysler Sebring as the least reliable car for at least two years running. (Again, that's based on owner reports and not magazine staff.)

Let us remember it wasn't long ago when Ford was selling cars that exploded on impact. Toyota will get through this.


Pat a couple of these statements arn't totally true.

First of all let me clarify I dont work for either company. I have worked as a tech at a Ford dealer(2 years) and at a chrysler dealer (15 years). I have never worked at a GM dealer and personally dont care for GM vehicles. I have been acused as a GM lover before. That is ok, I will defend the current domestic maufacturers because I have more experience with automobiles than many here. Currently I am a self employed inspector that spends most of my time looking over automobiles for all sorts of mechanical issues. Insurance related, legal related, and many other issues.

Almost every GM vehicle sold gets better mileage than a compariable toyota vehicle. Toyota can advertise that they are the most fuel effiecent full line vehicle because the lion's share of their sales are camrys and corollas that are mostly 4 cylinders. Where as the majority of GM cars sold in the same category are 6 cylinders, Americans like horsepower. If you look at the EPA stickers for comparible engines in vehicles the GM engine will get 1 mpg or better in almost every case. It also depends on the vehicle, you cannot compare a 3/4 ton silverado with a 5.3 to a tundra with a 5.7. If you look at the avalon and compare that to a impala with a 3.5 the GM will get far better mileage. In the case of minivans toyota Sienna gets poor mileage compared to a dodge caraven. Ride and performance is really in the eye of the beholder. It is really depended on how the car is driven in what conditions to determine performance and ride quality.

As far as the Sebring goes. I make stops every week at dealers of all types. Domestic and Import. I currently own a Sebring. I purchased a Sebring with advice from techinicians. I wasn't going to buy another toyota after my experience with them. It was going to get either a malibu, Sebring, or Avenger. I bought the 07 Sebring with 13k miles on and currently have 85k on and have done 0 to it other than change the oil every 5k miles. The OEM tires even lasted 70k miles. That is a far cry from the issues I had with my toyota. Now this is only one case. It could be differnet in others. But I have never met a person that was not happy with their Sebring or Avenger. So frankly I have very little trust in consumer reports information collecting practices.

I am not trying to defend the big 3's past practices specifically 1998-2005. They dug themselves their own graves in many ways. But from what I have seen the american vehicles are very competitive to the import makes in fuel mileage, dependability, performance, and overall quailty.

[Pat Germain]

Almost every GM vehicle sold gets better mileage than a compariable toyota vehicle.

I don't think that's the case, Paul. I think the real story is when GM claims they have multiple cars that get better MPG than Toyota, there counting the Cobalt 2 door, Cobalt 4 door, Cobalt wagon, etc. My kids each own a Corolla and the EPA rating is 37 MPG. In reality, they get better mileage than that. I would have to see the numbers to accept a Malibu gets beter mileage than a Camry, for example.


As far as the Sebring goes. I make stops every week at dealers of all types. Domestic and Import. I currently own a Sebring.

I'm glad you've had good luck with your Sebring. I drove a Sebring for two weeks straight when I was on travel awhile back. I was not impressed. In order for Consumer Reports information to be wrong, the thousands of people who report their experiences would have to be lying.

[Matt Meiser]

I drove a Sebring for two weeks straight when I was on travel awhile back. I was not impressed.

Of course you weren't because you are a big Toyota fan and don't want to believe it might not be the best car. Same reason you are going on blind faith that Toyota has better fuel economy. Its an easy thing to look up.

I've had Toyotas as rentals. I didn't find them to be anything special. Might have something to with where I live and where my friends and neighbors work.

By the way, Toyota Camary, 22/33MPG, Chevy Malibu 1LT, 2LT and LTZ package 22/33 (the LS gets 22/30 because of the transmission); Toyota Corolla 26/34, Chevy Cobalt 25/37 (25/35 for the 2LT)

[Paul Ryan]

Pat,

I went from a Camry to a Sebring. And at first there were things that I liked better on the toyota. The toyota had a softer ride, softer seats, a quiter motor (my biggest compaint with the sebring), and snappier from a dead stop. As I drove the Sebring and got used to it, now I like the seats much better. It has much better back support for the long days I put driving it. The toyota was really laking in back support but the seats were much softer. It took a while to get used to the sebring's seat they are hard and confined at 1st. Now I would never go away from them, my body feels much better after being in the car 8 hours. The sebring's motor is much stronger when you go to pass someone or while using an on ramp. Or when acceleration is needed on the freeway. However when you acclerate there is considerably more engine noise from the sebring. Other than that the cars are much the same. So much that the chrysler even uses the same stupid arm for the cruise like the toyota, instead of the steering wheel controls.

I have found every vehicle I own gets better mileage than the sticker says. It is all how the car is driving, what roads you are on, and what type of gas is used. My Sebring will get 37 on the interstate where I could only get 33 with the toyota. However at 60 mph the toyota still got 33 and my sebring gets 33. Both cars get better mileage than the sticker indicated. Fuel also makes a difference. In the winter the additives in our fuel drop the mileage down considerably. I lose about 3mpg when the winter fuel gets used. If you look at the trucks for example the tundra wont even come close to the mileage the silverado, f-150, and ram are rated for.

I just think that this recall finally shows toyota's true colors that have been masked for years. While the american car companies were focusing on suv's and pickups that had the largest profit margin. The imports were focusing on how to be profitable with cars, and dependability. The american companies have made many many other mistakes. But currently you cannot say any american company produces and inferior product compared to the imports. I do think toyota has such a loyal following that they will not be harmed too much by this incident if it gets taken care of soon.

But then again everyone still remebers the ford pinto. And that was only one model

[Pat Germain]

Of course you weren't because you are a big Toyota fan and don't want to believe it might not be the best car.

Ouch! No, not really, Matt. I am genuinely a car guy. I wan't all cars to be great. I actually drive a Volkwagen Jetta, which I really like. When I rented the Sebring, I wanted it to be a great car. It just wasn't. I grew up with Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles. I used to be a big fan. They chased me off through bad behavior.


Same reason you are going on blind faith that Toyota has better fuel economy. Its an easy thing to look up.

Well, not blind faith. I was going by the numbers I had seen previously. I had not seen the new Cobalt and Malibu numbers. I'm glad the the MPG is very good. As I said, I'd have to see the numbers.


I've had Toyotas as rentals. I didn't find them to be anything special. Might have something to with where I live and where my friends and neighbors work.

Now, wait a minute. You were acusing me of bias and you throw out that line? How do your friends and neighbors affect the quality of an automobile? If you want to support friends and neighbors who work for GM, for example, I can understand that. But it doesn't mean the cars they make are better. And, if you weren't impressed with a Toyota, that's understandable. Just like I'm not impressed with anything Chrysler or GM is making right now; other than the Corvette.

[Matt Meiser]

No, I'm pointing out that we all have bias.

[Pat Germain]

I went from a Camry to a Sebring...

Again, I'm glad to hear you're happy with your Sebring. I personally did not like the car. I have talked to people who prefer a Chrysler over a Toyota because they find the Chrysler more comfortable. It makes sense to go with what suits you best.


But currently you cannot say any american company produces and inferior product compared to the imports.

I think we'll just have to disagree there. I honestly think my Jetta is superior to the Chevy Cobalt or similar a Chrysler vehicle. I'm not sure about Ford. I've heard and read very good things about their small cars. So, maybe the Focus is superior to my Jetta, the Honda Civic and the Toyota Corolla.

And, if Toyota has been playing slimey, they deserve to be spanked.

[Pat Germain]

No, I'm pointing out that we all have bias.

OK. I now get it. I agree I'm biased. But I truly wanted to like that Sebring! I chose it over a Japanese car during my trip. I did the same years ago on a family vacation. I chose a Dodge Stratus over a Toyota Camry because I really wanted to like the Stratus. It was OK.

[Paul Ryan]

I will be the 1st to admit I am some what biased. I have spent most of my years with the domestics. I have experience with the imports but have never had a good one. When I bought the camry I wanted to like it as well. But I lost a ton of money on a car that was suposed to last that did not.

It is good to have variety because we never know what is good or bad for us unless we try something else. I am not pointing fingers at anyone here. I just dont like the domestic car companies being bashed over mistakes that they have made. But when an import company makes an equal mistake they are given a free pass because they are trendy.

[Dave Johnson29]

I lost a ton of money on a car that was suposed to last that did not.


A neighbor just spent $2600 replacing the rear struts, shocks etc on his 2007, Toyota Dealer serviced Camry. All shot and was told it is about normal for 135,000 miles. :eek:

I was stunned as I have owned a lot of Toyota vehicles in the past and they have been the utmost in reliability and durability.

[Mark Beall]

You forgot to mention that he was also pushing on the brakes as hard as he could - the rotors and calipers were totally burned up.

Some people may wonder why an experienced highway patrol officer didn't shift to neutral under those conditions. I would instead say that the conditions are so challenging that even an experienced highway patrol officer wasn't able to save himself and his family. A stuck throttle on a high powered car doesn't give you much room for error or a lot of time to think.

Quite a tragedy, and avoidable too. Floor mat retention clips have been pretty standard for many years now....

Interestingly, I just happened to March issue of Car and Driver today and they tested a Camry V-6 (basically the same engine as the Lexus) under these conditions. They had no problem stopping the car from 70 or 100 mph under full throttle. It took 16 ft more at 70 mph at full throttle vs closed throttle (190 ft vs. 174 ft). They were pretty clear that Toyota did need to do some things that other car makers do to make things safer (close throttle on application of brake, change how push button ignition switch works, etc.)

I did a little searching and found a story that said that someone else had that car a few days earlier and had the same problem and was able to brake the car from 85 to a stop. It would seem kind of likely that he wore out (or otherwise compromised) the brake pads (assuming that story was correct).

In the spirit of learning from other people's misfortune (which I have a done fair amount of here at SMC - makes me be more careful around my tools), we should all learn that the right thing to do if the throttle gets stuck on your car is to 1) apply brakes hard, 2) shift into neutral (shouldn't hurt anything if you get Park instead on an automatic)

mark

[Matt Meiser]

(shouldn't hurt anything if you get Park instead on an automatic)

Mythbusters tested this and no, it doesn't. The gist was that the transmission is designed to prevent it. Shifting into park instead of braking INCREASED stopping distance by something like 1600' because it was just a coast.

[Mark Beall]

Mythbusters tested this and no, it doesn't. The gist was that the transmission is designed to prevent it. Shifting into park instead of braking INCREASED stopping distance by something like 1600' because it was just a coast.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean that putting it into park instead of neutral wouldn't hurt the car for just that reason. You do still need to hit the brakes.

mark

[Jim Becker]

Maybe this will change people's attitude about the quality of American cars. Ford and GM have come a long ways in quality but many people perceive the Japanese cars as still having higher quality. This debacle could change that perception.



It's been reported that the gas pedal assembly in question was made in Elkhart IN. That's what they're checking for on the vehicles that were sent to the EU which apparently are also involved.

I'm not convinced that this has anything to do with where a company is based.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not convinced that this has anything to do with where a company is based.
I don't disagree with you. The point I was trying to make is that many buyers still think of American cars as being inferior to imports in quality, even though measurements (such as customer satisfaction) have indicated that their quality is essentially on par with the imports. The reputation American cars had was the hang-over from earlier years of poor quality.

Having a major import company, especially one that had a reputation for superior quality, have significant quality problems may cause buyers to take another look at American cars and realize that their quality is on par with imports.

Mike

[Having said that, it's tough to get a burner buyer to go back to a brand. For example, I owned a Nissan Maxima quite a few years ago. It was a mess - there was always something going wrong with that car. I don't care what kind of progress Nissan has made, I'll NEVER own another Nissan. If you gave me a Nissan, I'd sell it and buy some other brand.]

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

I feel the same way about Chevy.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would suggest.........

1. Toyota didn't become #1 selling automotive manufacturer just because it's trendy.

2. American manufacturers got their poor reputation by earning it. The cars they made in the 70's and 80's and their poor calloused attitude towards their customers that went with it sank their boat.

3. Most Toyotas and Hondas driven in this country are made in North America.....my purchasing those supports somebody's neighbors.

[Mark Beall]

I don't disagree with you. The point I was trying to make is that many buyers still think of American cars as being inferior to imports in quality, even though measurements (such as customer satisfaction) have indicated that their quality is essentially on par with the imports. The reputation American cars had was the hang-over from earlier years of poor quality.

Having a major import company, especially one that had a reputation for superior quality, have significant quality problems may cause buyers to take another look at American cars and realize that their quality is on par with imports.

Mike

[Having said that, it's tough to get a burner buyer to go back to a brand. For example, I owned a Nissan Maxima quite a few years ago. It was a mess - there was always something going wrong with that car. I don't care what kind of progress Nissan has made, I'll NEVER own another Nissan. If you gave me a Nissan, I'd sell it and buy some other brand.]

I'll agree with most of your points. For me there are few cars from American car companies that I would consider buying. There are some and more than there were 5 years ago, but I think there is still a ways to go. I would very much like for my first choice to be a car from an American car company, hopefully for my purchase after my next one, that will be the case (the next one is a Nissan 370Z, already decided on that :) - hope it doesn't turn out like your Maxima )

On the current Toyota issue (my last 3 vehicles have been Toyota's so I'll admit a bit of brand loyalty there - never had the smallest problem with any of them), I wonder if it's really that common of a problem or if it's pretty rare and someone high up said "we don't sell cars that have these kind of problems" and that's why they have stopped sales. If it's the latter then I might actually be impressed with their handling of the situation. How many car companies have actually stopped selling cars when they realized there is a problem with them - I've never heard of it happening before.

I've had a similar experience with a "bad" car that's turned me off of a brand. I had a new BMW 3 series that, in the first 3 years, ended up in the shop enough times that I just didn't want to keep it since it would likely cost me too much (and that was a wonderful car in every other way), doubt I'll buy a BMW again. I've never had any of my Toyota's in the shop other than for scheduled maintenance....

mark

[Walt Nicholson]

There is a very good article in the Wall Street Journal today titled "Too Big Too Soon" that chronicles Toyota's rise because of their dedication to quality and how that quality so quickly eroded when they took their eye off the ball and became consumed with being #1. The quarterly sales count to see if they were ahead of GM clouded everything else. As a result we are now seeing all of the class action suits for frames rusting through, Prius's losing brakes and going through horribly expensive headlights like a baby through diapers, over 3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles bought back by the factory because of engine sludge problems, and on and on. Quality has no direct relationship to the country a product is produced in. It has a direct relationship to the corporate policy of the manufacturing company itself. There are some incredibly high quality tools that come from the East shipped on the same boat with some real junk. The difference is "standards". Some of the U.S. mfgs finally woke up and are indeed building vehicles with quality equal to, and in many cases better that the foreign rivals. Although I agree with the fact that buying an "import" built in the U.S. provides jobs for our neighbors, it still bothers me that the majority of the money that is paid for the vehicle (profit) does in fact leave the USA and goes to the parent company in a foreign land. Just old fashioned I guess.

[Matt Meiser]

Makes me wonder if someday Ken might say "Toyota got their poor reputation by earning it. The cars they made in the 00's and 10's and their poor calloused attitude towards their customers that went with it sank their boat."

None of this is new, like I said a Toyota engineer told me the same thing Walt mentions 18 months ago. Its just coming to light because its become to big for the media to ignore.

I wonder how long it will be before Dateline NBC duct tapes a brick to a gas pedal to demonstrate how dangerous Toyota's are?

[Paul Ryan]

There is a very good article in the Wall Street Journal today titled "Too Big Too Soon" that chronicles Toyota's rise because of their dedication to quality and how that quality so quickly eroded when they took their eye off the ball and became consumed with being #1. The quarterly sales count to see if they were ahead of GM clouded everything else. As a result we are now seeing all of the class action suits for frames rusting through, Prius's losing brakes and going through horribly expensive headlights like a baby through diapers, over 3 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles bought back by the factory because of engine sludge problems, and on and on. Quality has no direct relationship to the country a product is produced in. It has a direct relationship to the corporate policy of the manufacturing company itself. There are some incredibly high quality tools that come from the East shipped on the same boat with some real junk. The difference is "standards". Some of the U.S. mfgs finally woke up and are indeed building vehicles with quality equal to, and in many cases better that the foreign rivals. Although I agree with the fact that buying an "import" built in the U.S. provides jobs for our neighbors, it still bothers me that the majority of the money that is paid for the vehicle (profit) does in fact leave the USA and goes to the parent company in a foreign land. Just old fashioned I guess.


Walt,

I could not agree with you any more. That is exactly what I have been saying for years now. And I was dumb enough to buy a toyota. I worked throught the years of every 604 tranny in a caravan needing replacement. Every 41LE tranny in a intrepid needing replacement. It was just stupid that chrysler didn't poor testing on the materials used to produce that those machines. However they have finally gotten their act together. After 00 the amount of tranmission failures I see in chryslers is very very small. But it took 15 years for them to figure it out. How many customers did they loose over that time, trying to be cheap.

General motors suffered through and in some ways is still finally getting out of the same symptoms that toyota is going throught right now. Quality control over suppliers.

IMHO just because toyota, honda, VW, or other car is assembled on our soil doesn't make it a us car. The vast majority of the design and part production is still done over seas. And the bank accounts aren't on our soil. Unlike a many domestic cars that are designed here and assembled in meixco or canada.

It appears that it is not a software problem, but a mechiancal one at that. The recall was expanded yesterday and it does effect almost all of the cars that they tried to repair with the floor matt recall. I guess it is the pedel itself that can become stuck. Not once have I seen any lexus metioned as being recalled for a electrical problem with a pedal that went full throttle on by its own.

I wouldn't start patting toyota on the back for shutting down production and sales. The only reason they did that was to save themselves money and more lawsuits. It wasn't because they were thinking "we don't sell stuff like that." They would have done anything to stop from shutting down, but since this has gone on for so long now, they had to do something.

[Curt Harms]

It's been reported that the gas pedal assembly in question was made in Elkhart IN. That's what they're checking for on the vehicles that were sent to the EU which apparently are also involved.

I'm not convinced that this has anything to do with where a company is based.

to cut down on the parts purchased from U.S. suppliers? The accelerator part made by Denso in Japan appears to not have this problem.

[Joe Cunningham]

Great my mom buys her first new car in 38 years (a Toyota Venza) because the local dealership is one of the highest rated in the region, and it has a serious recall not 10 months later.

If the local Ford dealer wasn't so horrible, she would have stuck with Ford. The local GM dealer closed, and Chrysler was looking shaky at the time she was shopping.

Me, I'm very happy with my Jeep. I like having a clutch too--stuck accelerator? Push in the clutch, just like I always do when stepping on the brake coming to a stop.

[Mark Patoka]

Back to the original question - we bought an '09 Matrix last year that is on the recall list. Haven't received any communication from Toyota yet but haven't had any problems either.

Since my wife drives it primarily, I did ask her if she knew what to do in case the gas pedal stuck. Yep, put it in neutral. The same thing happened to her dad many years ago in the family truckster and that's what he did. Now if she remembers to do that in the split second it happens in bumper to bumper traffic is another story.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Let's look at this.

First they have to find a solution. There appears to be 2 totally unrelated problems.

Then they have to manufacture parts for the solution or find some company with those parts in stock...which isn't going to happen in this day and age.

In short, because of the sheer number of vehicles involved, this will take a while.

[Paul Ryan]

Folks,

Let's look at this.

First they have to find a solution. There appears to be 2 totally unrelated problems.

Then they have to manufacture parts for the solution or find some company with those parts in stock...which isn't going to happen in this day and age.

In short, because of the sheer number of vehicles involved, this will take a while.

Ken is right,

It usually takes months before a large number of vehicles start getting fixed. When I was writting service years ago, the evening news would talk about a recall, the next day we would have customers calling. It would usually be a couple of weeks before we got our 1st parts and it would be a long waiting list. We usually only got a couple of kits a week. So by the time we were done with the majority of the vehicles it would be 6 months to a year. And then you would still have one every now and then for years after that. In this case I think it will take longer. Since toyota doesn't even have a part produced yet and you are talking about over 2 million vehicles. The techs are going to get real good at replaceing gas pedals.

With most recalls when you see the labor time they alow at 1st you say to yourself, "no stinkin way can I do it in .3" But after a couple of dozen you are usally beating time by a far amount. The techs will like this recall they will make money, since they will be doing dozens of recalls daily.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The techs are going to get real good at replaceing gas pedals.

.

They'll be replacing them in the parking lot while you wait. Running them into a bay will take way too long. 5 mins, tops.
.

[Matt Meiser]

Another genius PR move.

"The Associated Press has learned that Toyota is sending new gas pedal systems to car factories rather than dealerships who want the parts to take care of millions of customers whose pedals may stick."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100129/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

Now, I'm wouldn't be surprised if the reason they are doing this is that they are cranking out new parts that haven't been fully tested (according to an article I read quoting someone from CTS yesterday) so they are going to put them into cars that won't hit lots for weeks so that they can replace them again if need be. Still, the implication won't sit well...

[Dave Johnson29]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I mean that putting it into park instead of neutral wouldn't hurt the car for just that reason.

Why wouldn't one just turn the ignition to off?

[Dave Ogren]

I didn't see a post about the gas petal suplier.
I hope that I didn't miss it. If I did I apologize.
All of those parts were make by CTS of Elkhart, Indiana.
They are a multi-national corporation mostly known for poluting it's older plants in North America with volitile organic compounds.
I believe that I read 10 Million cars to be recalled.
If they can replace this gas petal for $10.00 each that total will get to a hundred million dollars.
Their market cap.( value of the company) today is $258 million. Might break this company.
I have no finantial interest in this company.
Good Luck,

Dave

[Matt Meiser]

Its the same situation as Ford's ignition switch issue a few years back. Hand over too much control of design, manufacturing, and quality control of a part to a supplier and then squeeze them for every last 1/2 cent on price and guess what's going to happen?

[Mitchell Andrus]

I didn't see a post about the gas petal suplier.
I hope that I didn't miss it. If I did I apologize.
All of those parts were make by CTS of Elkhart, Indiana.
They are a multi-national corporation mostly known for poluting it's older plants in North America with volitile organic compounds.
I believe that I read 10 Million cars to be recalled.
If they can replace this gas petal for $10.00 each that total will get to a hundred million dollars.
Their market cap.( value of the company) today is $258 million. Might break this company.
I have no finantial interest in this company.
Good Luck,

Dave

$10.00 each sounds like about 20% of real costs. The lawsuit will stall this for 5 years. And, if the design is flawed it might be Toyota's problem, not the supplier's. I'm thinking that some of the pedal assembly's parts are supplied by yet another supplier. (the return spring for example is almost certainly not made in-house) Also, insurance may kick in at some point.

From CTS's website dated 1/29/10:



CTS Comments on Accelerator Pedals

Elkhart, IN…CTS Corporation (NYSE: CTS) today expressed its “deep concern that there is widespread confusion and incorrect information” about the role of CTS-manufactured gas pedals in the media coverage of the recent Toyota recall.
CTS stated that since the problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999 when CTS did not even make this product for any customer, CTS believes that the rare slow return pedal phenomenon, which may occur in extreme environmental conditions, should absolutely not be linked with any sudden unintended acceleration incidents. CTS is also not aware of any accidents and injuries caused by the rare slow return pedal condition, to the best of its knowledge. CTS wishes to clarify that it does not, and has never made, any accelerator pedals for Lexus vehicles and that CTS also has no accelerator pedals in Toyota vehicles prior to model year 2005.
“We are disappointed that, despite these facts, CTS accelerator pedals have been frequently associated with the sudden unintended acceleration problems and incidents in various media reports,” said Dennis Thornton, CTS Vice President and General Manager of Automotive Products Group. Toyota itself has also publically stated that this recall is separate from the earlier recalls which were done to remedy sudden acceleration in vehicles.
CTS and Toyota continue to work closely in our partnership to resolve the slow return phenomenon.

.

[Walt Nicholson]

If you read my earlier post it explains that this vehicle does not use a conventional key/lock system. The vehicle's computer "reads" the chip in the key in your pocket and enables the push button on the dash so when you hit "start" the vehicle runs. You have to hold that button in for a full 3 seconds (assuming the salesperson told you this or you read the manual) in order to kill the engine. That is very hard to do at 100+ mph and drive with one hand while swerving through 50-60 mph traffic in front of you while pressing the brakes with all your might.

[Mike Henderson]

Why wouldn't one just turn the ignition to off?
Many of those cars have the keyless ignition, where you don't have a key, you have a fob that stays in your pocket. There's a button on the dash that you push to start the car (you also have to have the fob in your pocket).

However, to turn the engine off, on some cars you have to hold the button in for three seconds. Additionally, if you turn the ignition off, you lose your power steering and power brakes. While you can steer the car without power steering, it takes a lot more force. Some people may not be able to steer, and others may be surprised by the force required and think the steering is locked.

Safer to just put the car in neutral, brake and steer to the side of the road.

Mike

[Michael Gibbons]

When I heard about the family in California that called 911 and were traveling over 100 mph headed for a dead end, my first thought was, if you know you are headed for a crash, why not pop the trans into neutral? So what if it burns the engine up??? Then when I heard that that driver was a California Highway Patrol officer, I was really confused. If someone that has been trained to think under extreme stress situations can't think to do this, how is anyone else going to? If anyone had a chance of recovering in that situation, I would think someone in that position would have the second best chance, right behind fighter pilots. Jim. Or just turn the ignition off?

[Michael Gibbons]

Many of those cars have the keyless ignition, where you don't have a key, you have a fob that stays in your pocket. There's a button on the dash that you push to start the car (you also have to have the fob in your pocket).

However, to turn the engine off, on some cars you have to hold the button in for three seconds. Additionally, if you turn the ignition off, you lose your power steering and power brakes. While you can steer the car without power steering, it takes a lot more force. Some people may not be able to steer, and others may be surprised by the force required and think the steering is locked.

Safer to just put the car in neutral, brake and steer to the side of the road.

MikeTechnology gone too far can be dangerous,eh? Keyless ignition? May make the auto companies think about putting them in any future vehicles.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Or just turn the ignition off?

Push-button ignition switches incur a 3 second delay. Long enough to hit something.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Why wouldn't one just turn the ignition to off?

You loose power steering and brakes. For my grandma, that would be a problem.
.

[Matt Meiser]

Sounds like the fix is going to be announced Monda (http://detnews.com/article/20100130/AUTO01/1300390/Toyota-to-disclose-solution-to-sticking-pedals-Monday)y. Hope they get it right. 5 days from not knowing what was wrong to knowing how to fix it is a pretty quick turnaround not leaving much time for testing. If they get it wrong its going to be worse than waiting another week, PR-wise.

Also interesting in that article, since Consumer Reports was mentioned in this thread:

"The influential magazine Consumer Reports suspended its "recommended" status for the eight recalled Toyota models and for the Pontiac Vibe, which has also been recalled because it shares Toyota underpinnings."

I'm sure that will be temporary.

Regarding the pushbutton ignition--I once saw a test vehicle with a big red e-stop on the dash. Wonder if NHTSA will eventually require a kill-switch like the TPMS systems mentioned in the other Toyota thread?

[Paul Douglass]

LOL, the like reading a discussion about religion!

[Paul Ryan]

I have looked at a few cars with the push button ignition. Nothing for mechaincal or insurance issues. I though about turning the car off the minute I saw it. I wouldn't be caught dead in a car like that. It is one thing to have a electronic throttle. But no electric steering or keyless ignition for me. You need to have a way to quickly shut off the car. Manufactures have been playing around with electic steering for years. It hasn't hit the market yet for 2 reasons. Electical loads on the generating system and saftey issues.

[Glenn Clabo]

We have two cars...it's alot easier, safer and faster to turn the car off with the push button (Volvo) one than the key'd one (Dodge). I need to reach up in my line of sight and push a button (which shuts off the engine right then btw) or feel for and grab a key...out of my line of sight...and turn it. No way you can turn our key'd car off faster.

[Pat Germain]

But no electric steering or keyless ignition for me. You need to have a way to quickly shut off the car.

I agree with you, Paul. But, then again, I recall old-timers saying similar things about power steering, power brakes and automatic transmissions.

[Neal Clayton]

There is a sad theme to this that for some reason all of the car manufacturers fail to realize.

The 2nd most expensive thing the average person buys in their liftetime is a car. As such, it tends to be bought on a long buy cycle. I often go 10-15 years between buying vehicles.



you would think that, and it is like that in most parts of the world. but in the US gm specifically has tried their damndest to get people to buy throw away cars and trade them in every two years.

[Dave Johnson29]

However, to turn the engine off, on some cars you have to hold the button in for three seconds.


Thanks for that Mike. Shows that I drive a 1995 truck I guess. :):D No key, no go.

[Curt Harms]

not have a mechanism to return the engine to idle when the brake is pushed as mentioned? The switch is already there-cruise control disconnect. Just tie it into the engine computer.

[Mitchell Andrus]

not have a mechanism to return the engine to idle when the brake is pushed as mentioned? The switch is already there-cruise control disconnect. Just tie it into the engine computer.


I don't know any mfgr that does that. Lack of imagination... let go of the gas pedal, the pedal rises.

I have pieced together that - possibly - corrosion on a tightly wound return spring is the culprit. I can see how the spring's windings may bind if rusty. This also explains how the pedal doesn't cause the car to suddenly accelerate, but merely continues to accelerate.
.

[Mike Henderson]

Technology gone too far can be dangerous,eh? Keyless ignition? May make the auto companies think about putting them in any future vehicles.
I have a car with keyless ignition. It's the greatest thing since sliced bread. When I get into a car with a key, I feel like I'm going back to the dark ages.

It's also great for locking and unlocking the car. You just walk up to the car and (on mine) push a button on the door handle and the car unlocks. Same to lock it. Some cars lock automatically when you walk away from them and all you have to do to unlock it is pull on the door handle (as long as you have the fob in your pocket).

Things that you do all the time (like using a key) provide great value when they're improved. Improvements in something that you do once a year don't have that much value and people won't pay for it.

Once you drive a car with keyless ignition, you'll never go back. I expect that (essentially) ALL cars will have that feature soon. It's so convenient that everyone will demand it.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I don't know any mfgr that does that. Lack of imagination... let go of the gas pedal, the pedal rises.

I have pieced together that - possibly - corrosion on a tightly wound return spring is the culprit. I can see how the spring's windings may bind if rusty. This also explains how the pedal doesn't cause the car to suddenly accelerate, but merely continues to accelerate.
.
The reports on the Toyota problem have indicated that a number of car manufacturers have a "fail safe" mechanism in their accelerator circuits. The fail safe detects if the brake is pushed while the engine if above a certain RPM, and if so, brings the engine to idle.

For some reason, Toyota never put that fail safe in their cars. News reports indicate that Toyota will put this fail safe into cars as part of a software upgrade. They did not indicate that it would be part of the recall, but indicated that the update would take place when normal service is done. (If I recall correctly)

Mike

[Dan Mages]

Has anyone seen anything about Toyota compensating dealers for the halt in sales due to the temporary halt in sales?

My wife's car will need to be replaced in the next year. With this mess and the heavy hand Toyota's electronic stability program has on drivers, I will not consider the Camry as a replacement. Right now the Ford Fusion and Honda Accord are the frontrunners. If Chrysler gets their act together with Fiats help, I might look at what they have. My PT Cruiser is 8.5 years old, has 117k miles on it, and runs as smooth as the day I bought it. The only major problem I had and have is with the coolant system, but that did not become a problem until 110k miles.

Regarding Consumer Reports. I don't trust them at all. The fiasco with their test of the Orbit Car Seat was the final straw. You can read all about it here (http://www.dadlabs.com/Daddy-Clay-Blog/Orbit-Baby-v.-Consumer-Reports-Parenting-Conundrum.html).


Dan

[Paul Ryan]

It looks like the NTSB and toyota still haven't agreed on the culprit yet. Toyota saws it is the pedal not returning. The NTSB says it is that is some cases and software in others. I would not be suprised to see a pedal recall 1st which they are starting to implement. And later on a "flash" to the PCM to update some software. Last evening they had a Toyota store manager on talking about how he has hired an addition 20 techs just to do recalls. Says he will be able to do 500 recalls a day. I am sorry but this guy has to be "smoking crack". I have a very very hard time believing he will be able to have that many parts on hand and be orgainzed enough to operate like that. But we will see.

I would buy a car with keyless ignition if it shut off imediatly if I pushed the button. But the lexus I have driven that you have to push and hold the putton for 3 seconds is BS. That is not safe if you ask me. There also needs to be some type of teather as well, I just dont trust it.

[Pat Germain]

OK, I'm starting to think there's something funny going on here. It's looking like the GM influence Matt had heard about might be real.

The US Transportation Secretary is now telling people who own recalled Toyotas to NOT drive their cars.

Consider that GM has had recalls for failing brakes and front end components which could randomly disconnect. Ford had trucks which could spontaneously burst into flames while sitting parked. And never, not once, did our Tansportation Secretary tell people to stop driving their vehicles.

[Matt Meiser]

He retracted (http://detnews.com/article/20100203/AUTO01/2030394/LaHood-says-he-misspoke-when-he-told-Toyota-owners-to-stop-driving) that statement. But he's pretty PO'd at Toyota the way it sounds.

[John Coloccia]

I suspect it'll be a combination of problems, from matts to sluggish pedals to sensor/software problems. I can't blame people for being skeptical of the fixes because Toyota has been dodging this for years. Hopefully they'll get it straightened out.

[Paul Ryan]

The more I read and listen too about this fiasco. I am not so sure toyota is going to rebound as I previously ecpected. It is now comming out about how toyota has known about issues for some time but were unwilling to do anything. The NTSB basically told toyota do something or we will. And then toyota still dragged their feet. Until it got to this point were they we told quit selling your cars and get this fixed now. And the investigators still arn't convinced that the gas pedal is the whole problem. I guess it appears to me it is just toyota's management as usual thinking their $%^& doesn't stink.

The recall the other compainies have went through in the past never got to this point because while reluctant to release anything. Ford, GM, and Chrysler did in a timly maner admit there was a problem and went out of their way to repair it. Unlike toyota who it appears denied it until the ship sank.

[Jeff Monson]

The more I read and listen too about this fiasco. I am not so sure toyota is going to rebound as I previously ecpected. It is now comming out about how toyota has known about issues for some time but were unwilling to do anything. The NTSB basically told toyota do something or we will. And then toyota still dragged their feet. Until it got to this point were they we told quit selling your cars and get this fixed now. And the investigators still arn't convinced that the gas pedal is the whole problem. I guess it appears to me it is just toyota's management as usual thinking their $%^& doesn't stink.

The recall the other compainies have went through in the past never got to this point because while reluctant to release anything. Ford, GM, and Chrysler did in a timly maner admit there was a problem and went out of their way to repair it. Unlike toyota who it appears denied it until the ship sank.

Paul the story seems to change daily, it has from the start. Couldnt agree with you more that Toyota has become reactive on this instead of proactive like they should have. I agree the big 3 seem to get recalls handled more effectively. Just doesnt make sense that they cant get this figured out. They have blamed everything but the kitchen sink on the problem, floormats, software and the pedal. Whats left??

[Pat Germain]

They have blamed everything but the kitchen sink on the problem, floormats, software and the pedal. Whats left??

Magnetic interference. I heard on the radio this morning that had also been investigated.

Steve Wozniak was on CNN yesterday. He claims his wife's Lexus will accelerate on its own under certain conditions when the cruise control is engaged. He said he's able to recreate the condition and he's disappointed Toyota won't acknowledge the problem.

[Matt Meiser]

Wouldn't it be ironic if it was his iPhone causing the problem? (and yeah, I know he no longer works there)

[Mike Henderson]

I managed software development for analog modems, and some of the problems customers reported would only happen if a very unusual sequence of events happened. Reproducing those problems was extremely difficult because, before hand, we didn't know the sequence of events that would produce the problem. We had to try all kind of things to find what was the root cause. It took a LOT of engineering hours to address one problem.

I suspect something similar is happening with the Toyota. When a very unusual set of things happen in the right order, the car accelerates on its own. Finding that is really difficult.

Sometimes we could never find the root cause (because the sequence happened over a relatively long time) but could put in code that would detect when the error happened and correct it.

Mike

[Mitchell Andrus]

With all of the blame going around, lets keep things in perspective and remember that ALL manufacturers of just about ANYTHING will eventually push a dud design or part out the door.

A listing of car manufacturers' recalls: (Toyota is nowhere near the worst offender, BTW. Ford tops the list with 5,039)

http://www.allworldauto.com/recalls/

.

[Paul Ryan]

Again,

Personally I am not a Ford fan either. But many of Fords recalls are customer satisfaction recalls. Recalls that many manufacturers would never even dream of. Ford had a recall on the early model F-150 made in 97 on the exhaust. The original design came out in from of the right rear tire. The exahust over time caused that wheel to become discolored. So Ford recalled the exhust and wheel for customer satisfaction resasons. It had nothing to do with saftey. There were sub frame recalls on taurus that was a saftey issue, along with the nightmare wiring issues that they had. But many of there recalls were also customer satisfaction related. There are many issues that I could not believe Chrysler did not recall. Because we replaced every one on every model in certiain years. So each company has different reasons to make recalls. Many are not saftey related.

[Dave Lehnert]

Again,

Personally I am not a Ford fan either. But many of Fords recalls are customer satisfaction recalls. Recalls that many manufacturers would never even dream of. Ford had a recall on the early model F-150 made in 97 on the exhaust. The original design came out in from of the right rear tire. The exahust over time caused that wheel to become discolored. So Ford recalled the exhust and wheel for customer satisfaction resasons. It had nothing to do with saftey. There were sub frame recalls on taurus that was a saftey issue, along with the nightmare wiring issues that they had. But many of there recalls were also customer satisfaction related. There are many issues that I could not believe Chrysler did not recall. Because we replaced every one on every model in certiain years. So each company has different reasons to make recalls. Many are not saftey related.


Don't get me started on the 1997 Ford F150. My exhaust is as you described. Never a recall on my 1997 built in Feb of that year for the exhaust.
Anyway......... Ford had a problem with the 97 6cyl that left the factory in Jan and Feb of that year. I lost coolant in that thing from day one. Took it back to dealer many times. To the point they said there was nothing else to do. Do a search on the 97 6cyl F150 about blown engines. They all go at about 75K miles. Mine did at about 78K. Cost ME $4,000 to put a new engine in. It was out of warranty by that time. I called shops and say I need a price for a new engine in my truck. They all would say "is it a 97 F150 6cyl" they replace them that often. But FORD knows nothing about it?????
The 1997 F150 is the most stolen truck in the US.
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=434545
Guess there is a market for the used engines.

OK...rant over. Back to woodworking

[Paul Ryan]

Yes dave that 4.2 is a pile. They don't make it anymore. Each and every company has their "wish we wouldn't have done that" moments. Honda has that with their odessey trannies.

It just goes to show you, you never buy a full size pick-up with a V6 though. :D