slider verses cabinet saw

[Paul Greathouse]

I would like to get some real world information from people who have used both sliders and cabinet saws. I am very familiar with cabinet saws but have never had the opportunity to use a slider.

First, I would not like for this to turn into a discussion about how the Euro sliders are far superior in quality to tools made in other countries. I understand and agree that they are of high quality.

I would also not like it to turn into a discussion of about how the combination machines can pack more usable tools into a smaller space. I prefer seperate tools and have adequate space for them.

Please just let this be a saw to saw comparison. I am more interested in what you can do with a slider that you can't do with a cabinet saw or if your in the other camp what techniques/jigs do you use to avoid needing a slider.

Please educate me, that's what I started this thread for. The only difference I see in a slider and a cabinet saw is with a slider you can more easily break down full sheets of ply and straight edge rough lumber. Is there anything I'm missing?

[Jeff Nolan]

In reading your post it feels like you are conflating sliders with combination machines. Even among the Euro manufacturers (and even though you don't want to talk about it, these are exceptionally well engineered, high quality machines with big continuous duty motors, precision machined components, and a good degree of safety devices) you can buy standalone sliding table saws that mimic what the combo machines provide.

I think you need to think about this from the perspective of Euro sliding tablesaws and American style cabinet saws with slider add-ons. I have experience on the Euro machines, and cabinets saws but I have never used a cabinet saw with a slider adapted to it.

Sliders are best for handling sheet goods (they typically have scoring saws as well) but their ability to precision cross cut also means you can get away without having a miter saw. I don't do this, I still have a SCMS and rarely use my sliding table saw for crosscutting.

The ability to use the slider with hold down devices also means you can effectively joint a board.

The downsides are that you don't have a lot of left side table and because the slider mechanism runs on the left side the fence won't work on the left side of the blade. This becomes an issue when you are cutting angles (and the blades are right side tilt only).

Jigs designed for standard miter slots won't work but you can usually make something work by adapting it for the slot that is in the sliding table. I've never been impressed with the rip fences on the euro machines either.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I wish I could find a NYWS-style video showing the construction of a major piece of furniture using a sliding table saw and/or combo machine.

[matt lannan]

Paul, I have a cabinet saw and slider. The slider has a collection fo scraps on it 99.999999% of the time. I don not use it. However, I generally don't make cabinets or have a use for a lot of sheet goods. I make crosscuts with a sled I made and I find that to be faster and simpler. Just my opinion.

p.s. want to buy a slider?:)
broadleafwoodworks.com

[Rod Sheridan]

I wish I could find a NYWS-style video showing the construction of a major piece of furniture using a sliding table saw and/or combo machine.

Dan, that's easy.

Go to the Felder website and they have a video showing a desk being made from rough material to completion. I believe it's called the "All rounder", it shows a CF741 being used.

You will have to create a logon profile to download the video, however Felder don't pester you.

The video is over an hour long, and is an eye opener for people who haven't used sliding saws or combination machines such as jointer/planer or saw/shaper.

I have a jointer planer, saw shaper is scheduled for delivery in March.

Regards, Rod.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dan, that's easy.

Go to the Felder website and they have a video showing a desk being made from rough material to completion. I believe it's called the "All rounder", it shows a CF741 being used.



Thanks, Rod - I'll take a look at that. I think I tried watching a video on Felder's website once (I think it was Frank Klausz demoing a combo machine), but they had this ungodly obnoxious electro-synthesized background "music" playing that was so loud I could barely hear Frank, repeating about every 20 seconds. I watched about 40 seconds of the video :mad:

[Rod Sheridan]

You're welcome Dan, please let us know what your thoughts are after watching the video.....Regards, Rod.

[Sean Nagle]

I wish I could find a NYWS-style video showing the construction of a major piece of furniture using a sliding table saw and/or combo machine.

I think they have a video at the Hammer/Felder web site showing a rocking chair being built using the Hammer combo machine.

[Paul Greathouse]

In reading your post it feels like you are conflating sliders with combination machines. Even among the Euro manufacturers (and even though you don't want to talk about it, these are exceptionally well engineered, high quality machines with big continuous duty motors, precision machined components, and a good degree of safety devices) you can buy standalone sliding table saws that mimic what the combo machines provide.

Actually Jeff, I wasn't "conflating" (I'll admit, had to look that one up). I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I was talking about a Euro slider (Saw Only) verses a common Cabinet saw used in the way you would normally use a Cabinet saw without an add-on sliding attachment.
Too many times I've seen threads like these go off on a wild tangent of some sort. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't interested in combination machines just a "saw only" Euro type slider, (Grizzly even makes some now) verses a common Cabinet saw.
I don't recall which brand it is but I believe I've seen sliders that not only have attached shapers but planer/jointers too. That's what I was not interested in. They are great for those who like them but they are not what I am looking for at this time.

I think you need to think about this from the perspective of Euro sliding tablesaws and American style cabinet saws with slider add-ons. I have experience on the Euro machines, and cabinets saws but I have never used a cabinet saw with a slider adapted to it.

Sliders are best for handling sheet goods (they typically have scoring saws as well) but their ability to precision cross cut also means you can get away without having a miter saw. I don't do this, I still have a SCMS and rarely use my sliding table saw for crosscutting.

The ability to use the slider with hold down devices also means you can effectively joint a board.

The downsides are that you don't have a lot of left side table and because the slider mechanism runs on the left side the fence won't work on the left side of the blade. This becomes an issue when you are cutting angles (and the blades are right side tilt only).

Jigs designed for standard miter slots won't work but you can usually make something work by adapting it for the slot that is in the sliding table. I've never been impressed with the rip fences on the euro machines either.

Thanks for your input, the left side table issue and the unimpressive rip fence comments are the type things I am trying to learn about these saws.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for your input, the left side table issue and the unimpressive rip fence comments are the type things I am trying to learn about these saws.

Actually I like the Euro fence better than my Biesemeyer.

The Euro, like the old Unisaw fence (sorry I don't know the actual name), can be placed on its side for thin work or bevel cuts, work as a standard fence or be pulled back to the arbour position for safer ripping.

Regards, Rod.

[William M Johnson]

Don't mean to kidnap the thread but this is relevent. I have been making a lot of cabinets over the past couple of years (all for my house) I am not a pro and work by myself. Being able to break down 3/4" hardwood plywood is a big part of cabinet making. I have "progressed" down this path.
1. Contractor Saw (Ridgid surprisingly good)
2. graduated to PM66 - obviously great
3. added Excalibur slider - big help
4. EZ-Smart Track Saw.

I will never breakdown ply on the PM66/slider again. The EZ Smart is great. No tearout, no chasing dropoffs etc. All very civilized and much, much, much safer.

I have no affliation with EZ Smart but am a very satisfied customer.

Bill

[Peter Quinn]

I' use both sliders and cabinet saws at work. The sliders are a smallish Griggio and an industrial 10' SCMI. I don't like ripping on a slider. I'm sure others will argue "you just have to get used to it, then you'll like it", but I say hogwash. Any slider of any decent size (ie can handle full sheets and large solid tops) has that darn carriage in a place I find inconvenient for ripping. And the fences? Well they vary considerably. That high/low aspect Rod pointed out is nice. The fence on the SCMI at work is built like a tank, I'v seen others that are flimsy and seem to say "I could rip if I HAD too, but please don't make me!"

Sliders are great for cross cutting, and that is where the cabinet saw (also known formerly as a "variety saw" for the variety of things it could accomplish) is weakest. The sliding carriage and stop system on a good slider makes accurate repeatable cuts a breeze. Panel sleds and miter gauges run out of steam when the stock reaches a certain size, and sheet goods are all but out of the question unless you build a sled that is very large.

If you work with much live edge material or bowed slabs a slider can do a great job at straight lining such stock and save on jointer passes. You can also do that on a TS with the right jig. As I think about it, you can pretty much accomplish almost any normal sized work on either, but the cabinet saw will force you to be a much better "jig maker", while the slider is basically a giant aluminum extrusion of a jig in itself. They both take a lot of room to process large material.

[Mark Bolton]

We switched to a slider a bit over a year ago in our shop. Having used cabinet saws for the last 20 years (since my teens) I would echo most everything Peter posted. I have yet to get use to ripping anything narrower than perhaps 12". Narrow rips are when you just have to be on the left side reaching over the sider which is often times 14" or better. This also makes fence adjustment rough.

That said, most cabinet saw users are jig junkies and what we made for our slider is simply a large right angle square for the slider carriage for ripping. I made ours with approximately 4' leg that registers against the slider fence (quick clamps) and a 6' long leg running parallel to the blade. Now for ripping I simply adjust my scale to read off the jig (thumbscrew, slide scale, retighten) and rip with the slider.

This of course only works for ripping stock within the capacity of your slider, longer and your back to the fence. It also clears uot the captive cut issuse with a right bevel saw.

In the end I wouldn't go back to a cabinet saw for anything. I always thought people said that simply because they had paid out the a** for a panel saw but at least fir me that's not true. There is no comparison for me with versatility, speed, accuracy, and safety, to a slider. We work with a lot of rough lumber as well so the straighlining is a massive plus.

Mark

[Michael Schwartz]

I don't have a slider due to space and budget considerations but I have worked with them in the past and they are very much indispensable in many ways.

I would ask the question, do you have the extra space required, and can you afford one.

I know plenty of guys with 4-5 man shops who get buy with a cabinet saw, and furniture makers who produce some of the finest work with on beat up hybrid saws. So yes can get buy without a slider if you don't have the room or just can't afford one.

But if you have the budget and space by all means they are a worthwhile investment, even if you don't cut allot of sheet goods.

Since I cut nearly all my sheet goods and process quite a bit of hardwoods with my CNC router when I move up to a larger shop and a second table saw, I will likely add an aftermarket sliding table to one of my saws.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'll agree with what Michael said. No offense intended, but aren't you comparing caviar to peanut butter? You can put both on a cracker, but one is significantly more costly and better than the other. IF I had the space and the funds, I would consider a good slider...... But for me a worm drive skill saw and clamp down guide is what I use to break down plywood. I can't even justify a Festool track saw.

Just my $.02.

[James Carmichael]

I'll agree with what Michael said. No offense intended, but aren't you comparing caviar to peanut butter? You can put both on a cracker, but one is significantly more costly and better than the other. IF I had the space and the funds, I would consider a good slider...... But for me a worm drive skill saw and clamp down guide is what I use to break down plywood. I can't even justify a Festool track saw.

Just my $.02.


One is significantly more costly, but better? It tastes like...fish eggs!

I have zero expertise in this area, I haven't even watched a video of a slider in use, but muscling 4'x8'x3/4" sheets onto and over a table saw of any sort seems like the tail wagging the dog to me, especially in a home shop where 8' of infeed and outfeed support is precious real estate, even if you have it.

[Leigh Betsch]

I had a contractor saw, cabinet saw and a slider in the shop all at the same time. I kept the slider and sold everything else. Even with a sled I found cross cutting anything over about 18" wide darned hard on a cabinet saw after I was spoiled with the slider. I don't have a problem ripping on the slider, I use the wagon to push anything less than 8 ft through the cut and anything over 8" I use the wagon for the first 8 ft then continue to push by hand, all against the rip fence. The only inconvenience I've found is the right tilt blade. But then I've never compared a 10K slider against a 10k cabinet saw (if they even make one). There are other people on the forum that do much better work than me that do "most things" on their cabinet saw instead of their slider so I think it really depends on how you work. Heck if you can afford a slider why not have a cabinet saw too and compare them, I did and I chose the slider for my one table saw and sold the others.

[Paul Greathouse]

Don't mean to kidnap the thread but this is relevent. I have been making a lot of cabinets over the past couple of years (all for my house) I am not a pro and work by myself. Being able to break down 3/4" hardwood plywood is a big part of cabinet making. I have "progressed" down this path.
1. Contractor Saw (Ridgid surprisingly good)
2. graduated to PM66 - obviously great
3. added Excalibur slider - big help
4. EZ-Smart Track Saw.

I will never breakdown ply on the PM66/slider again. The EZ Smart is great. No tearout, no chasing dropoffs etc. All very civilized and much, much, much safer.

I have no affliation with EZ Smart but am a very satisfied customer.

Bill

Bill, your preaching to the choir. I have been using the EZ Smart stuff for about 5 years. Before that I used a Delta contractor saw long enough to wear it out and I still have all ten fingers. The EZ stuff is very safe and works very good but I just find myself missing the tablesaw for certain tasks and I know how to use one safely. I particularly like the idea of the riving knives that Grizzly is putting on their saws now.
I'm either going to get a Grizzly Cabinet saw while they are on sale or may hold out a while and get a Slider if it would serve me better.

[Chris Kennedy]

I have no experience with sliders. I think they definitely have their advantages. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, they cannot use a dado stack because EU requirements about stopping the blade in a certain amount of time. I wouldn't want to be without my dado stack.

Cheers,

Chris

[Paul Greathouse]

Peter, Mark and Michael

Thank you for the relavent information, the points you brought up are exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for.

[John A langley]

I agree with most everything everyone else has said about both the slider saw and the table saw. I have two table saws and a slider. I have worked with table saws for 50 years and the slider for 8. The only thing I find difficult on the slider is ripping hardwood but it can be done. If I was starting my business over again I would start with the slider. My slider, I can put a dado head on it and I also tilt the blade 45 degrees. I can cut a full 4x8 sheet of plywood 45 degrees if I wanted to make an L-shaped counter top. Because I have the 3 saws I uee the slider mainly for cutting up plywood, straight-lining lumber. Something that I don't think has been mentioned that most sheet goods don't come straight or square anymore. The slider makes this relatively simple to do because you are not using the plywood against a fixed fence that would just mirror the cut. One other nice thing about the slider is that I can cut good two side material with the scoring blade and there is no tear out on the bottom side. I wouldn't suggest it but with the slider you could throw away your cabinet saw and miter saw. If you can afford to, I'd have both.

[Paul Greathouse]

Good point Chris, if I had to do alot of long dado's my routers would be screaming for relief. I have been using routers for all my dado work since my old tablesaw gave out 5 years ago.

[Rod Sheridan]

I have no experience with sliders. I think they definitely have their advantages. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, they cannot use a dado stack because EU requirements about stopping the blade in a certain amount of time. I wouldn't want to be without my dado stack.

Cheers,

Chris

Hi Chris, the EU saws do take a dado cutter, however they look like a shaper cutter with scoring and hogging cutters. They produce an amazing groove.

In NA, the sliders take a stacked dado cutter that have been bored with piin holes. The braking still works with these. (Or you can buy one of the better shaper type cutters if you desire).

Regards, Rod.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,
I have gone from table top to contractor to cabinet saw to 8.5 ft silder to 10.5 ft slider. I have had a guide saw as well but I sold it off once I stopped doing installs. In my shop I can use my for anything and I do. For me the greatest thing the slider provides is safety!!!! I am an Architect as well and I kind of need my fingers (heck anyone needs fingers ;))

Read these posts below for my "unbiased" opinions :D
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23389

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23774

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24502

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26285

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29871

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=31545

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51355

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=34708

[Jeff Nolan]

I use a dado stack with my slider, a Minimax (SCMI)... this is not an issue at all with newer saws.




I have no experience with sliders. I think they definitely have their advantages. On the other hand, if I remember correctly, they cannot use a dado stack because EU requirements about stopping the blade in a certain amount of time. I wouldn't want to be without my dado stack.

Cheers,

Chris

[Travis Porter]

I have gone from a cabinet saw to a slider, and still find it "awkward". Ripping is not the easiest thing to me. I miss the miter gauge slots that were on a cabinet saw to use jigs and other assemblies. The foot print of a slider is big, and takes up a lot of space. My saw is 8' 6" and it takes a lot of free space all around it.

On the bright side, it makes doing repeat cross cuts and so forth a breeze. You don't need a cross cut sled. Straight line ripping is a wonderful thing. Being able to cut up sheet goods quickly and easily is another plus.

Sliders have a lot of plusses, and I do enjoy mine, but I do miss my PM66 as well.

[Steve Rowe]

Paul,
I have owned a number of table saws over the past 30+ years of woodworking including a Shopsmith, contractor saw, two cabinet saws, one Euro combo machine and two other stand alone sliders. I build furniture and cabinets so I deal with both sheet goods and solid lumber. The slider is equally adept at handling both.

I haven't had a cabinet saw in my shop for over 5 years and I can count on one hand the number of times I missed it. The only thing I really miss about the cabinet saw is the dado capability with the now sold Freud SD608. My current slider is limited to a 15mm width on dado capacity so I haven't bothered purchasing dado tooling since when I want a dado, it is usually >15mm wide. The Felder combo I previously owned did have the full dado capacity and the cutter was pretty awesome.

The slider is far superior to any jig or add on sliding table that could be used on a cabinet saw. Its forte is accurate cross cutting and for this reason alone, I will never go back to a cabinet saw as the exclusive saw in my shop. The reasons follow:

Using the edging shoe with one hold down clamp, I can straight line rip a piece of rough solid lumber about 10 ft long. This is always my first step in milling solid lumber.
I rip using the slider with hands nowhere near the blade.
Riving knive and guard system have been built in to the sliders for years. Only recently has the riving knive made its way into cabinet saws unless you had an extremely high end machine. The sliders have fully functional guards that actually work and provide dust collection as well. Even with today's cabinet saws, seeing these features that actually work are rare.
When using a slider, your hands and the force you are applying are not anywhere close to the blade.
When using a slider, the operator stands to the side of the machine and out of the line of fire from the blade. I suppose you could stand in the front but, on the saws I have owned, your arms would have to be 5 feet long to handle the material. At first, this was a bit awkward for me to get used to it, but once I did, it comes as second nature.
The rip fences I have had are very stable and stiff. They are as good or better than any high quality fence on a cabinet saw.
Scoring saw portion is not an afterthought on a slider. If you purchase this feature when you get your saw, it is awesome. Most cabinet saws, this is not even available short of an aftermarket add-on.
Overall, the slider is safer than a cabinet saw since the operator is never in the line of fire nor hands near the blade if he is using it correctly. Yeah, I know - I can expect to hear from the Sawstop owners on this but that safety feature only addresses hand contact with the blade. The biggest downsides to sliders are:
1) The wingspan is always consuming shop space unless you can easily remove the outrigger table and use a smaller crosscut fence as is the case for most crosscut situations. I really like the Felder setup with respect to this condition.
2) Ripping narrow stock is a bit of a pain since you can only go so narrow with ripping on the slider. Standard crosscut fence and parallel fence setup, I can rip to about 6" on the slider. With a shop made jig, I can get this down to about an inch. Any narrower, you have to swing the guard out of the way and use the rip fence.

Steve

[Leigh Betsch]

I use a Freud Dial a Width dado head on my MiniMax ST4 Slider. It takes standard 5/8 bore saw blades either 10" of 12" nothing special. When I had my contractor saw I had quite a few special jigs. Now with my slider I have two, one for tenons, box joints and dovetails (yes dovetails) and one for narrow ripping which is just a simple sacrafial board clamped to the miter fence that I can use to push the stock thru the blade and not worry about cutting into it while I hold the stock against the rip fence with a long handled push stick. I don't do much jig making for the tablesaw anymore.

I have no idea why my text went italicized.

[Paul Greathouse]

Steve, Thank You for the well thought out and concise response. It will go a long way in helping me make my decision. I may be sending you a PM tomorrow with a couple of specific questions after I have had time to read through your post again.

[Roger Benton]

Paul, in my shop we have both a cabinet saw and an old ('70's I think) 10 ft martin slider.
Personally, I deal in solids 95% of the time and if I had to lose one saw it would be the slider.

You didn't mention what type of work you do. For a cabinet shop dealing mostly in sheet goods the slider is the way to go. As was stated earlier, accurately squaring up, ripping and crosscutting 4x8 or 4x10 sheet stock is a breeze on these machines. Again, as others have stated, ripping solid stock on a slider is do-able but not as comfortably done as on a cabinet saw.


One other "con" in my opinion for the slider is the awkwardness when working with small pieces. The fence is too tall, and the area around the blade is only awkwardly accessible. Ripping small or thin stock, especially with any type of miter, is no fun. Activities like cutting tenons on small pieces with a dado stack and the miter gauge are much easier (for me) on the cabinet saw.

Again I guess it really depends on what type of work you do. If you have the space, having both saws is a great setup.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I wish I could find a NYWS-style video showing the construction of a major piece of furniture using a sliding table saw and/or combo machine.


Check out the Felder site. Sep makes a desk, with a place to store whiskey!

Edit, I should have read Rod's post of this very thing before I repeated!

Paul, my $.02, what a slider does better is everything. Seriously. There is a catch though, you have to be willing to forget the old way that you've always worked, and just use the slider as a completely different tool than a tablesaw. Sorry about the zen crud, but a slider is completely different than a cabinet saw. For example, to rip a bunch of 1/2" x 1/8" strips of oak to make toy barn siding out of, I simply attached a "rip fence" to the wagon, 1/8" from the blade. One end had a hook, like a push stick. By having the fence mounted to the wagon, that little skinny part was always secured to the left of the blade, and I just repeatedly sliced strips off.

Most sliders are also equipped with better riving knives, scoring units, and controls than a traditional saw. My Felder also uses superb electronics that stop the blade in about 2 seconds when the off button is hit.

You'll find people that will swear a slider is no better than a cabinet saw, but if you want the truth, try one. Plenty of us have them, and I bet you can set up a test session. They are not for everyone, you have to be willing to work to the strengths of the design of the slider, rather than around the limitations of the cabinet saw.

I get the impression that you are biased now, and are just looking for justification. A Grizz cabinet saw on sale, and a Euro slider are on completely different levels. I'm a little sceptical that you are seriously considering a slider...

[Glen Butler]

The euro machines seem to be where its at. After watching the Hammer B3 winner video, I am extremely interested in getting a closer look at one. If the budget allowed I would have one in my shop right now. Sadly I knew nothing of it when I made my recent purchase of a saw and shaper.

I build cabinetry and I wouldn't even consider getting a powermatic sliding table. I would start looking at lower end CNC machines first.

[Mike Wilkins]

Many times when I had my Unisaw, I wished for a slider. Try crosscutting an 8/4 slab of oak on a Unisaw; and don't forget the ruined cuts in oak plywood.
I got rid of my Uni when I got the Laguna Pro 6 Foot slider. No regrets. I put on a Freud Glue Line Rip blade and go right from saw to glue-up. And cross cuts are a breeze now. I am still finding new uses for the slider all the time.
The only downside to a slider is the lack of aftermarket accessories available.
I am slowly making my own out of plywood, hardwood and DeStaco clamps.
Another Creeker, Paul Cresti has made some really nice jigs for his slider; just search the creek to find him. And thanks Paul.
While my slider can take a dado set-up, I am going to set up a 'normal' saw for this purpose, and other smaller operations. I strongly advise anyone that has the room and cash to go this route. May seem like a luxury to some, but this tool acquisition thing is a sickness.

[Paul Greathouse]

You are all building a very good case for me to have both a slider and a cabinet saw, darn the luck, I guess I will just have to get both. I'll probably go with a cabinet saw first and slider a little further down the line.

I'm not in a big hurry right now I'm just doing it for fun, but I am setting my shop up in such a way that I can make a retirement business out of it. Maybe build a couple sets of cabinets a year and do some custom pieces to suppliment my retirement, which, with the economy the way it is, that may be 10-12 years away.

[Rod Sheridan]

You are all building a very good case for me to have both a slider and a cabinet saw, darn the luck, I guess I will just have to get both. I'll probably go with a cabinet saw first and slider a little further down the line.

I'm not in a big hurry right now I'm just doing it for fun, but I am setting my shop up in such a way that I can make a retirement business out of it. Maybe build a couple sets of cabinets a year and do some custom pieces to suppliment my retirement, which, with the economy the way it is, that may be 10-12 years away.

Paul, one of the things I wanted to mention about ripping on a slider, is that if the slider is small (mine has a 51" crosscut capacity) the machine looks just like a cabinet saw.

You don't have the large support structure for the slider, so it's almost square across the front, just like my General 650.

So in this case, I get the 51" crosscut, straight line rip to 51", nice fence etc.

I didn't lose any functionality or convenience, I gained it.

Regards, Rod.

P.S.

I also received more power when I went with the B3, it is 4 HP, my General was 3HP, not that it makes a difference, 3 HP is plenty.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Paul, one of the things I wanted to mention about ripping on a slider, is that if the slider is small (mine has a 51" crosscut capacity) the machine looks just like a cabinet saw.

You don't have the large support structure for the slider, so it's square across the front, just like my General 650.

So in this case, I get the 51" crosscut, straight line rip to 51", nice fence etc.

I didn't lose any functionality or convenience, I gained it.

Regards, Rod.

Thats an excellent point, Rod. A longer slider has a bit of the table sticking out in front of the saw when locked. My 8' table is about 20" out when its locked. I usually just let it float, and the undercarriage then sticks out about 12".

Personally, I like the extra infeed table (plus it's a great place to put the controls) if I'm conventional ripping, but if it bothers you, Rod pointed out a great option.

[John Harden]

Paul, I've been a woodworker for over 25 years and went through the normal progression of bench top saw, contractors, PM-66, until I bought my Felder saw/shaper combo.

The others here have done an excellent job of describing the benefits. I can't really add anything new to what has already been said, so I won't try.

The one piece of advice I'd give is to spend some time working with a slider. If you call Felder or MiniMax, they'll be happy to give you the name and phone number of a woodworker in your area who owns a slider and will let you spend some time kicking the tires.

Obviously, I prefer a slider, but you may feel different after checking one out.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Regards,

John

[Leigh Betsch]

You are all building a very good case for me to have both a slider and a cabinet saw, darn the luck, I guess I will just have to get both. I'll probably go with a cabinet saw first and slider a little further down the line.

Why not just believe your poll. 20 to 6 say buy the slider! If I was trying to save some money I would look to a used slider way before a Grizzly.

[Jeff Nolan]

You are all building a very good case for me to have both a slider and a cabinet saw, darn the luck, I guess I will just have to get both. I'll probably go with a cabinet saw first and slider a little further down the line.


If I had the space I would absolutely have both. I wouldn't trade my slider but there are times when I really would prefer a cabinet saw ready and waiting.

[Peter Quinn]

You are all building a very good case for me to have both a slider and a cabinet saw, darn the luck, I guess I will just have to get both.

I didn't vote because I'm thinking just that. Ideally, have both. They are very complimentary. If I had the space and resources in my home shop, I'd have both. At this point I have only the cabinet saw in the home shop, and I get by. There are other ways to crosscut, though none quicker or more convenient. If I had the resources for a slider but the room for only one saw, I'd get the slider and deal with the ripping issue. The Felder video showing the making of the walnut desk is a great primer on the many creative uses of a slider. There are many fine options in the market to suit different volumes, sizes and levels of work. Even if a sheet of plywood never crossed my door I'd still love to have a small slider at home. One option I find particularly interesting is the small slider/shaper combo format.

[Jim Becker]

The most important thing to remember is that there is a learning curve when you move to/from a (true) sliding saw. You do things differently. Sometimes, it's faster and sometimes it's slower. You sometimes need "different" jigs and aids to do something than you would have on the alternate format.

I'd be less than honest if I didn't acknowledge that there have been a few times where I said, "D'oh! I could have done that faster on my old saw!", but overall, I'm firmly convinced that I did the right thing in moving to the slider. What extra time I take for setting up some cuts is made up for by not having to go back to the jointer because the cut line on a board that was clamped to the wagon is absolutely glue-up and/or sanding ready.

The one major change I've made is abandoning the saw for dados and grooves. My particular slider is dado capable, but I just decided to utilize a router for that work and between the router table and the guided system I also own, I'm very much covered for that kind of work. I don't feel bad that I sold my Dado-King awhile ago, despite the fact that I absolutely loved it for it's quality and capability.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Ok Rod (and Steve) - I watched the video. I have to admit, the first half-hour, I thought it looked cumbersome. Towards the end, it started to seem more apealing. Thank you for recommending it - it was a very enjoyable and interesting video.

The one thing that makes me uneasy about a sliding TS (or especially, a combo machine) is that I feel like I'd be buying a pile of aluminum extrusions - as though it's a project kit which I can set up in different ways to perform various tasks. I imagine this is great if you're doing repetitive tasks, or if you are very good about setting up your workflow to do all of the similar steps at the same time. I suppose with practice and experience, that becomes less significant.

Definitely an interesting video. I wish they would have omitted the endlessly-looped new-age/techno music, though - it would have been nice to actually hear the saw :)

[Mark Bolton]

I imagine this is great if you're doing repetitive tasks, or if you are very good about setting up your workflow to do all of the similar steps at the same time. I suppose with practice and experience, that becomes less significant.


That is no different that a cabinet saw. You reference NYW, one of his most repeated phrases is "while I have my stack dado in the saw...."

Norm, and anyone who spends time making things, organizes their work flow so they don't have to set up the same process five or six times a day. It's no different with a slider or a hand saw.

I think one thing you have to be careful of is discounting anything new simply because of tradition. It's perfectly fine to discount something when you have come to a conclusion through use, exerience, information. But just because it's what we have always seen, known, is often times a recipe for stagnation.

Just my .02
mark

[Dan Friedrichs]

That is no different that a cabinet saw. You reference NYW, one of his most repeated phrases is "while I have my stack dado in the saw...."


You're absolutely right, Mark. I just mean that, to a complete slider-novice, it seems like there is more setup involved. But of course, you save time in other ways by using it. I'm going to try and find some other videos of sliding TS's being used, and see if I can come to better appreciate their abilities.

[ed vitanovec]

I used a unisaw for many years and sold it last spring. I bought the smaller grizzly sliding table saw to replace the unisaw. I'm really happy with the slider and it does take up some space. There is a small learning curve in the way you use a slider verses a conventional table saw. In my case I think I added a big safety feature by having the sliding table. I'm building a large gazebo and I had to make 1.5" wide dados in 8' boards, this would have been difficult for me using a cross cut sled with a table saw. The more I use my sliding table saw the more I like it.

Regards!
Ed

[Glen Butler]

You're absolutely right, Mark. I just mean that, to a complete slider-novice, it seems like there is more setup involved. But of course, you save time in other ways by using it. I'm going to try and find some other videos of sliding TS's being used, and see if I can come to better appreciate their abilities.

Post links cause I would like to see thos video's, but I don't want to look for them.:D

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Post links cause I would like to see thos video's, but I don't want to look for them.:D

Try this Glen. You want the video titled "The complete workshop!"

http://www.felderusa.com/us-us/video.html


Have to admit, that is a sweet machine;)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ok Rod (and Steve) - I watched the video. I have to admit, the first half-hour, I thought it looked cumbersome. Towards the end, it started to seem more apealing. Thank you for recommending it - it was a very enjoyable and interesting video.

The one thing that makes me uneasy about a sliding TS (or especially, a combo machine) is that I feel like I'd be buying a pile of aluminum extrusions - as though it's a project kit which I can set up in different ways to perform various tasks. I imagine this is great if you're doing repetitive tasks, or if you are very good about setting up your workflow to do all of the similar steps at the same time. I suppose with practice and experience, that becomes less significant.

Definitely an interesting video. I wish they would have omitted the endlessly-looped new-age/techno music, though - it would have been nice to actually hear the saw :)

Dan, I can see why you'd get that impression, but in use, it doesn't work out that way. The Euro machines tend to use a completely different manufacturing approach then the traditional cabinet saws. The aluminum extrusions for example. What this approach does is allow a more modular design. I have an X-roll slider for example, to which a huge pile of things will attach. I don't need them all though, as just the parts that I actually use need to be purchased.

The outrigger is a good example. It attaches easily and there are plenty of options, but honestly, buy the size that you use the most and just use it. You don't really ever have to change it for a different configuration if you don't want too. The "accesories" are really for customizing a base tool. The Felder video worked in a few extras for sales reasons, but a base machine plus the outrigger and table length to match your work size will serve you very well.

[Chris Tsutsui]

This has proven to be a very informative thread for me because I'm still using my first table saw which is a jobsite Bosch and am looking for an upgrade.

Currently I want a slider, I don't mean a full size panel saw, but one of those compact sliders such as a Grizzly G0700, G0623X, or Hammer B3/K3. Anything I can't cut on the smaller slider comfortable, I will safely cut with my track saw (TS55).

What I like about the sliders is that the sliding table is close to the blade, while if you got a cabinet saw with a slider add-on table, then the guide bar will be pretty far from the blade.

Right now the only thing that would make me get a cabinet saw is if I found a good deal on craigslist. But if I'm going to spend my own money on a saw, then it might as well be the slider I want.

I think maybe two or three times a year I will see a good slider go for sale on my local craigslist but most of the time it is a large industrial type panel saw which I am not in the market for.

If luck helped me find a good used full size panel saw for cheap, i'd get one, then I would probably get a used cabinet saw to compliment it to have the convenience of both. (But since this scenario is highly unlikely I will just have to save for a compact slider and then sell my Bosch)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dan, because you watched a combination machine, you saw the same fence and table extensions being moved from one function to another.

Since I have a jointer/planer and a separate saw/shaper I don't have any fences to move from one function to another, I have a fence on the jointer, and a fence on the saw.

I do share table extensions because I don't normally need them on the jointer or the saw, so I only bought two table extensions and four mounting rails. (I'm going to buy two more rails so I can use the extension tables on my General International 17" band saw).

I looked at the Euro stuff for years, finally had to admit that as much as I like General (they are Canadian), that like all the NA stuff, they're 40 years behind the times.

The planer/jointer was the rationalization piece, I knew that Felder/Hammer wouldn't produce something that wasn't a high quality well engineered piece of equipment, however I still had to "test the waters".

Of course the test turned out great and I decided that at my age it was time to quite screwing around with a cabinet saw and get with the program.

Since I almost exclusively use solid wood, I bought a short slider, added scoring saw, Canadian electrical approval, fine adjust on the rip fence, and tilt away bracket for the feeder.

My short slider will cross cut a sheet of plywood and straight line rip a 51" long piece of wood, longer if I make a jig that uses the guide strips for the sliding table.

Dan, it would be bad advise to give you to suggest that you should purchase another cabinet saw if you're looking down the road as you indicated in your original post. It's a big leap to a slider, however well worth it.

Think about what capabilities you want, and then customise the machine order to get exactly what suits you best.

Regards, Rod.

P.S I agree about the music on the Felder video:D

[Mike Wilkins]

Mike here again. As others may have stated, there is a learning curve when you go from a standard cabinet saw to a slider. I relied on my rip fence for the majority of my saw use; now I use it for less than 10% of the cuts made.
There are more sliders available now than 10 years ago; I suspect they are aimed at the hobbiest/garage/part time/small time woodworker who don't need the capacity of a large slider. I would love to have had a slider with the capacity to rip a strip from the long side a 4X8 sheet of ply, but a 16 X 24 foot shop does not lend itself to a machine of this size. I have been really happy with a machine with a 6' capacity, and there is still room in the shop for other equipment.
Great info here for the taking.

[James Evers]

I'll admit the machines are very impressive, but they are also pretty steep price wise. In a commercial setting they are probably great, but for a hobbyist it seems a bit steep. I'd think an Incra slide and a less costly saw would net similar results to the Grizzly 0700.

[Mark Bolton]

I think maybe two or three times a year I will see a good slider go for sale on my local craigslist but most of the time it is a large industrial type panel saw which I am not in the market for.

If luck helped me find a good used full size panel saw for cheap, i'd get one, then I would probably get a used cabinet saw to compliment it to have the convenience of both. (But since this scenario is highly unlikely I will just have to save for a compact slider and then sell my Bosch)

Chris,
This is undoubtedly the main reason why sliders are not common in home/hobby shops. If you look at a site like Exfactory (high prices if you ask me), even well used, modest commercial sliders sell for 5-15k. And the 5k is rare. There are of course Altendorfs and others in the teens, twenties, and thirties. This locks the vast majority of home and hobby users out of the market even for sliders that will fit in their shops.

It will be interesting to see in the coming years with the introduction of somewhat more affordable sliders what becomes available on the used market.

I have gone to several used tool dealers who have pretty good inventory and you most always see well used sliders that are several years old with asking prices of 6k, 7k, 8k, and up.

Then you factor in that even if the machine is in extremely good operating condition, tight, well cared for mechanically, but it may not "look" like a shinny new penny, it will likely never be considered by many home/hobby users who expects something pretty and shinny in their shop when they fork over 6-8k for a tool.

Mark

[Charlie Plesums]

Five years ago I upgraded from a table saw to the slider, and have no regrets. Often I think of the slider and outrigger as a very precise crosscut sled that is always available on the machine, not stored someplace. My saw can handle a dado blade (a different version is sold in the North American market since European safety rules do not allow a non-through cut). However, I prefer a router and guide for my dado work.

I was worried about losing shop space with the slider, but now don't feel that it takes any more room than my tablesaw. I have always had to keep 8 feet clear before the blade, and another 8 feet after the blade, to be able to handle long boards, but with the slider I don't have to arrange portable stands for support.

My primary jig for the slider is the nearest scrap of plywood. For example, if I have a lot of narrow rips, like rails and stiles, I just clamp a piece of plywood on the slider, 2 1/2 or whatever distance from the blade, and get the perfectly straight rips that the slider provides. Then I recycle my "jig" back into the wood inventory. A similar board along the miter fence is my tapering jig for legs. Etc.

I was warned that it would be a big adjustment to go from table saw to slider. Knowing that it would be different, I just started using it the new way, and never had a problem.

[Rod Sheridan]

Bumping this thread to obtain Paul's comments and possible decision.

Paul, what are your thoughts? The poll is overwhelmingly in favour of the slider, are you going to purchase one?

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Greathouse]

Bumping this thread to obtain Paul's comments and possible decision.

Paul, what are your thoughts? The poll is overwhelmingly in favour of the slider, are you going to purchase one?

Regards, Rod.


First, I want to thank all of you for your overwhelming response to both this thread and the poll. I intentionally did not let on to exactly what type of work I do because I didn't want the responses tailored toward any one type of work. I was hoping for and received alot of good information on sliders.

Although I haven't seen a slider in person yet. I can tell from your responses and the limited research I have done via internet that they are quality machines and I will definately be taking a closer look at them. I tend to shop a tool a year or two in advance of buying. I'm really just starting to look at sliders right now. I'm also smack in the middle of my own kitchen cabinet build and kitchen remodel, so thats eating up the fun money for now.

I'm hoping my company bonus in March will be enough to comfortably purchase a cabinet saw (Grizzly) with the remainder to go towards the remodeling expenses. I have been using a tracksaw exclusively, instead of a tablesaw, for the last 3 major cabinet projects I have done. The tracksaw has plenty of advatages for me but there's just some things I would rather do on a tablesaw.

I will more than likely be getting a slider of some sort in a couple of years after I have recovered financially from my present kitchen project. I want to wait and get what I really want and not have to compromise. I would like to get at least an 8' straightline capacity because I like building tall casework. I've had a tall piece in each of the last 3 sets that I've built.

Going forward, I'm not thinking Cabinetsaw verses Slider any longer. There is room in my shop for both and I will eventually have both. The Cabinetsaw is more affordable right now and will be the first purchase but I am very interested in the Sliders. At the very least, when I do get a Slider the Cabinetsaw will make a good dedicated dado machine.

Again, Thanks for all the good information and ideas.