Ellsworth vs. Thompson

[Chris Stolicky]

The title sounds like a boxing match headline, doesn't it?

I wanted to tap some of the vast knowledge and experience that hangs out around here (rather than actually turning...)

I have collected four of Doug's bowl gouges and really like them. So far, it is three V's and one U. The U is a 1/2" and plan on purchasing a 5/8" at some point.

I got the Ellsworth book for Christmas and have been reading it, and it seems like part of his book is really an advertisement for his gouge. I know that a lot of people like it and swear by it.

So, is the 'Ellsworth' gouge just one the 'older' really good gouges (i.e. technology/ideas) and Thompson's the 'new', or are the really completely different animals? I do understand the actual name sake of the grind.

I'm also not sure how different the metals are, and the edge holding ability. I know that Hartsville currently has the Ellsworth Pro PM on sale, but backordered. Just wondering and contemplating...

Oh, do you also need the Ellsworth sharpening jig for it, or will the vari-grind jig work? I'm not a free-hander yet.

[Mike Minto]

Chris, I'm a fairly new turner (about 3 years now) so my opinion is to be superceded by those with more experience. But it's still valid. I have a few Thompsons, and like them alot. I have a Crown PM Ellsworth gouge and it is my favorite, 'go-to' for just about any task. I bought it the day I bought my first lathe. I feel the steel on the Thompsons 'grinds away' faster, but also think the Thompson and Crown PM Ellsworth stay sharp about the same length of time - again, IMO. David may well be a self-promoter - I don't know, even though I've met him (very nice guy). He has a right to be, I believe, due to his artistry, mastery of the lathe, experience and knowledge. He is also self-employed, and everyone has to make a living (he could be wealthy, for all I know, though). Doug Thompson is also a very nice guy - I've only spoken to him on the phone, but he's always been nice, and very helpful. As far as technology goes, Thompson's are newer, I guess, but the both they and the Crown are powdered metal. I grind all my bowl gouges at the same angle for simplicity sake - don't know if the two should be done differently. So, take this opinion and add it to the many others you'll get here, and enjoy all your tools :). (PS, I can tell you that the vast majority of tools I'll be buying in the future will be Thompson's - am stocking up for retirement, and won't have as much money for my hobby - just this weekend paid Doug for a 1 1/4 SRG!).

[Bernie Weishapl]

I have the Ellsworth Pro PM and Thompson's. Thompson's IMHO.

[Thom Sturgill]

The Ellsworth gouges are available both as M2 and as Powdered Metal. If you are comparing only the PM version then the main difference would be the shape of the flute assuming that you have reground the Ellsworth without duplicating his profile, otherwise the discussion would center on the effect of the grind.

As far as the difference in metallurgy, you would need to talk to a specialist, I'm not sure that the individual turner could tell that much difference in sharpness or edge holding ability.

I have had the Ellsworth M2 for about a year and like the grind, I have two Thompsons but they are a spindle gouge and the U shape flute on a bowl gouge that I bought specifically for cutting in the middle third of the inside of a bowl. I have only used it once so far, but the spindle gouge bought at the same time is a 'go to' tool

[Lance kanaby]

I have both of these gouges and each are my favorites. I have the older Ellsworth HSS gouge by Crown and this is a wonderful gouge and the steel is like fine cream or really great wine, it holds an edge very well. This gouge responds well in my hands. I also have another Ellsworth gouge made by Taylor and it just feels different and not to my liking. The Thompson gouges, 1/2" V and U shapes are really wonderful tools. I will be purchasing more of the Thompson tools in the future. The quality of his tools is beyond compare!

[Mauricio Ulloa]

Hi,

I don't know about the thompsons because I only use the Ellsworth gouge with his jig to replicate his sharpening. I tool classes with him and I got used to using his gouges and hollowing tools. It's hard for me to try to change now. His gouge is really versatile, and I'm able to do a bowl from start to finish with a single tool!

Since I work with really hard woods, I have to resharpen the tools often. So I try to have as many already sharpened gouges as I can while I'm turning. It's really annoying to me to stop my work to go and resharpen the tool. So, the PM does not work that much for me. If I were you, I'd get as many regular/cheaper Ellsworths as I can. It also pays back to assign one extra gouge and to regrind it to 85 degrees for deeper bowls.

It seems that the Thompsons have a good price. To be honest with you, I've also bough some Benjamin's Best from PSI and regrind them to the Ellsworth shape. They provide me with decent cuts at a lower cost. (The Master would kill me if he happens to read this....!!!!!).

[George Morris]

i have both I started with the Elsworth have 3 of them love them. Thompson are great tools and would buy them from now on.

You can grind a Thompson with a Elsworth grind with the verigrind. I have two of the Elsworth jigs and the newest one is round and as the tool wears down it does not fit in the new jig the round one.

Hope that helps! G

[Bill Bolen]

I had the Ellsworth 5/8 for about 6 months. Nice but I had to sharpen waaaaaaay too often. Bought the Thompson 5/8" and put the same grind on it. Much better for me. Same cutting action but only need to sharpen like every third to 5th bowl rather than twice per bowl...Bill..

[Reed Gray]

Gouge profiles and angles are one thing, and metals are another. You will get a finer edge on a HSS tool than you can get on the powder metals, but the difference isn't much. I can rough out a lot more wood with the powder metals than I can with the HSS. I always use a freshly sharpened gouge for the finish cuts, no matter which steel I am using. Both the traditional gouge profile (45 degree bevel, and 45 degree sweep) and the swept back grind have their advantages. I do prefer the traditional grind for the outside of a bowl, and the swept back design for the inside of a bowl. The swept back design also gives a bigger edge for roughing if you and your lathe can handle that much at one time (here I prefer scrapers). The longer wings on the swept back gouge give you a bit more edge for that finish shear cut on the outside of a bowl.

As to sharpening, for the last month, and 80 or so bowls, I have put away my Ellsworth jig. I am sharpening on a Veritas tool rest, the 3 by 5 inch platform. Sweep is determined by how far to the side you swing the gouge, so you can do either traditional or swept back at the same setting. It is fast enough, and easy enough that I may never use a jig again.

For angles, I have several. The 45 degree angle will work fine for most bowls, but on larger ones, and deeper ones, you can't make the transition from the walls of the bowl to the bottom because the handle runs into the tool rest, and/or the rim of the bowl. You need a flatter angle. So, I have 45 degree bevels for most of what I do, and some in the 55 or so range for the deeper ones, and an 80 or so degree one for the bottom.

I have yet to settle on any method that I use the same way every time, and will always experiment. Maybe I will find a method to stick to pretty much, but my birth certificate may expire first.

robo hippy

[Bill Blasic]

This quandary as to which tool is best will always continue, it is just like lathes and chucks, everybody has their favorites. I don't post my favorites to try and change anybody's mind just to add an opinion for those looking to help them decide. In that vein take the Ellsworth 1/2 Crown PM at $111 unhandled vs Thompson 1/2 V at $55. I have a lot of Thompson tools and have given away all my other non-Thompson gouges to new members of my club. I'm a fan because in my opinion at a cost/value/quality point they just cannot be beat. My new latest favorites are the 1/4" detail gouges, great tools for those finials and icicles.
Bill

[Hilel Salomon]

Hi,

I have Thompson Hamlet,Crown and Sorby gouges with swept back grinds. Some are called "Ellsworth" but others use different names. Ellsworth's are the equivalent of what Hamlet calls "Irish" grind. Doug makes a "Grumbine" design which is very swept back. Though I now have over a dozen Thompson gouges, I don't have that one yet, but friends who do, like it very much. You don't really need an Ellsworth jig in order to get something like his configuration. You can do it with almost any jig on the grinder, with each one requiring some experimentation on angle and distance from the wheel. If you have a tormek, Jeff explains quite clearly how to achieve the swept back design on it. Elsewhere on the forum, some turners explain the many advantages as well as the disadvantages of using Ellsworth, Irish, Fingernail, etc. configurations. I think that it helps to have a variety of grinds.
Good luck,

Hilel.

[Mauricio Ulloa]

I need to give it a try to the Thompsons. The price looks really good and all of you guys recommended them well. Is the flute shape similar to the Ellsworth?

[Gordon Seto]

Is the flute shape similar to the Ellsworth?
You will be the judge.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/Forum/b688d4af.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/Forum/ae7dfc00.jpg
I know Doug Thompson, he is a member of our Club. He is a cowboy hat turner. He is his own research and development department. I have seen some of his prototype with various flute shapes and depths. What he settles on were not by accidents.

[Doug Thompson]

This weekend in Nashville Kurt Whitley will be the first to get a 5/8V deep fluted gouge, he special ordered 4 of them... if it works well this will be added to the line up. The 1/2V that John Jordan and Jimmy Clewes like to use also has a deeper flute too but personally I like the standard flute depth with a secondary bevel.

The Ellsworth and the 5/8V can be sharpened with his jig and maybe someone can take the time to find out what the grade PM is used in the Ellsworth... PM starts at M4.

The cost difference between tools is what material the tool is made from, the heat treatment and how many people companies need to turn a profit from that tool.

[Chris Stolicky]

I figured Doug would chime in eventually. Hi Doug. The sound of that 'Deep Fluted V' sounds intriguing. Based on the the pics Gorden posted, I picture it actually looking similar to the Ellsworth flute. I am assuming that you will be at our symposium/showcase again in Saratoga, NY at the end of March. If that is the case, I will likely be purchasing at least one more tool from you in person. If not, it will probably be by mail. It will be interesting to see if the that new design works out.

I really like the Thompson gouges. The reason I started this thread was to see comments from people that had experience with the two different tools. Ellsworth's book is really good by the way. It just got me thinking about the different tools, grinds, and associated edge holding ability.

Oh, to Bill's comment below. The current sale at Hartville puts the 5/8" (1/2" UK) Ellsworth Pro PM bowl gouge at $87.98. That is almost comparable to Doug's 5/8". The sale won't last long and Doug will become the much better value again. I'll leave the value of the handled/non-handled issue to be debated elsewhere.

William - were you using the the M2 gouge or the Pro PM gouge?

Thanks everyone for their comments so far.

[jason lambert]

Used both I like both but if I had to recomend one it would be the Thompson. + the cust service is MUCH better.

[Reed Gray]

Actually, you don't need a jig at all to sharpen the swept back designs. Properly angled tool rest, and just sweep it more to the sides. I haven't used my Ellsworth jig in over a month, and may never go back to it. Faster to do it on the tool rest plate (Veritas).

robo hippy