Waterlox over BLO?

[Martin Shupe]

Has anyone tried this?

After sampling several finishes, the one my wife likes best is the orginal Waterlox.

I want to get some depth to the wood, so I am thinking about trying a couple coats of Tried and True Linseed Oil (not the varnish mixture), followed by 2-3 coats of Waterlox.

Jim Becker already suggested a coat of garnet shellac, but I feel I need to take the shellac finishing course first, so for now I am trying to keep it simple.

The wood is cherry, of course.

Also, any comments on techniques for rubbing out Waterlox? I have a few bubbles that have dried in the finish. Steel wool? If so, I think it will take a lot of work.

Any other Waterlox advice appreciated!

[Byron Trantham]

Martin,
Jim is right. You will need a barrier between the BLO and the Waterlux. As a matter of fact I am in the middle of a large wall unit done in cherry. I am using BLO, shellac and Target coating's WB lacquer. Water based products don't mix well with an oil based product, hence the shellac. Good luck.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I use the Waterlox original finish quite a bit when I want a thick and fairly glossy finish that doesn't take forever to build. It really doesn't need a shellac barrier coat over BLO since it is a mixture of solvents, polymerized tung oil, and a small amount of phenolic resin varnish. The polymerized tung oil in the finish will bond very solidly and nicely to the BLO. As for rubbing out, you can make your work easier by leveling the finish first with a 400 grit wet/dry abrasive. This might help you get rid of the bubbles. It doesn't matter whether you use sandpaper or one of the finer synthetic pads like the 3M gray ones. Afterwards I would put on one more light coat of Waterlox thinned slightly and let it cure for a couple of weeks. The final rubout can be done with 0000 steel wool and paste wax or alternately, with a 3M white pad and wax.

[Carl Eyman]

On Jeff Jewitt's advice I'm using a 2/3 - 1/3 mix of Original WaterLox and WaterLox satin over seedlac shellac (about 15 coats). It is a pleasing satin finish. It is not building up fast as I am wiping it on. There are no bubble problems, but it is a bit streaky. Glad to hear it can be steel wooled. I tried 0000 in an obscure part and it looked like it would work. Any Cautions?

[Donnie Raines]

This is all to much work. Martin, I suspect a finish that you and your wife will really like is Pratt and Lambert #38 varnish. Dont get me wrong...I have done the BLO/Shellac/lacquer thing...and it is nice(particulary if you use garnet shellac). But I have become very fond of the PL finish. It comes as a brushing varnish, but I thin mine 75% varnish to 25% mineral spirits...thus making a wipeing varnish. It is rather clear when cured, but dries very quickly and smooth. Simply rub it on....and rub it off(kind of like David Marks does on tv......). Dont let it sit...it will become very tacky and then your trouble. I have found this finsh to look very simliar, in end results, to the blo/shallac routine. Only you can apply about 4 cotas in one day....and it requires no buffing and waxing.

By the way..the curly maple table I made was coated with PL only!!
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=12710

Just a thought....

[Jack Hogoboom]

I've heard a lot about the Pratt & Lambert finish. Donnie, is the stuff hard to find? I've never seen it anywhere.

I love the Waterlox finish. When I took my class with Frank Klausz, that's what he used. He used one coat of shellac which he sanded with 320 grit paper. Then did three or four coats of Waterlox, sanding the first few with 320, the last couple with 400 and then 0000 steel wool before the final coat. Then he waxed it. Absolutely slick to the touch!!

I subsequently discovered that the more coats you put on, the glossier the finish becomes, so it's pretty easy to get the sheen you'd like.

I'd like to try that lacquer though. Four coats in one day....

Jack

[Donnie Raines]

Hey Jack,

It appears that PL is somewhat challenging to find. If you visit Pratt and Lambert's web site they have a store directory. That should help in locating this product.

Yup...4 coats in one day with this varnish. But, you dont have the fumes that lacquer has.....never used the Target finish...so I dont know if it's odor is as strong as the "others". PL has a very low odor to it. I like it because it is very silky smooth without the wax.

[Jack Hogoboom]

Donnie,

Found a store 6 miles from my house!! Not too far at all. The website doesn't appear to have any information on the #38 varnish. Do you think any P&L store will carry it?

Thanks,

Jack

[Donnie Raines]

I read on another forum that all PL dealers were to carry the full line of products. If they do not stock it, I am sure they can order it.

[Jack Hogoboom]

BTW, I was mistaken. Its the first product listed. The Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) makes for some interesting reading. I'm looking forward to trying this out.

Jack

[Ed Hardin]

If they do not carry it take a look at Sherwin Williams fast dry oil finish. It too is an alkyd varnish that leaves a very pleasing finish. I never could get P & L # 38 around here. They require the shore who whant to buy the stuff to carry the full line. So I have become quite fond of Sherwin Williams.

[Jim Becker]

Dave is correct...no problem with Waterlox over BLO. The suggestions on P&L #38 and SW Fast Dry are also good alternatives. I've been using Waterlox on my turnings lately with nice results and it doesn't seem to add a lot of extra color...that was nice on the ash piece I most recently turned. P&L #38 is good in that respect as it's soya oil based and that means it's very light in color. (Nice for Donnie's maple pieces to keep from materially altering the color) I just bought some SW Fast Dry Varnish, but have not used it yet.

BTW, the reason I recommended a coat of Garnett Shellac in a 2 lb cut was not so much as a sealer as for the little extra clarity and color robustness it adds to cherry without staining...which for many of us is an "evil thought"!

[Donnie Raines]

Dave is correct...no problem with Waterlox over BLO. The suggestions on P&L #38 and SW Fast Dry are also good alternatives. I've been using Waterlox on my turnings lately with nice results and it doesn't seem to add a lot of extra color...that was nice on the ash piece I most recently turned. P&L #38 is good in that respect as it's soya oil based and that means it's very light in color. (Nice for Donnie's maple pieces to keep from materially altering the color) I just bought some SW Fast Dry Varnish, but have not used it yet.

BTW, the reason I recommended a coat of Garnett Shellac in a 2 lb cut was not so much as a sealer as for the little extra clarity and color robustness it adds to cherry without staining...which for many of us is an "evil thought"!
Good point on the garnet shellac Jim!

Also, PL can be buffed to a high sheen....but if left in its "natural" state(if you would) is more satin in end result. This could be good or bad depending on what you want. I found that Waterlox was a bit to "brite" for my taste. As stated above, PL is more satin in finish.....but very smoooooth.

[Martin Shupe]

I have looked for P&L 38, but have not found it yet, so I'll check the website.

I think the Waterlox is just a little too shiny, but my wife likes it.

Perhaps I'll have to get some 38 and make her pick between the two.

Thanks for all the input.

Jim, do you mix your own garnet shellac, or use it out of a can? Any details would be appreciated.

[Jim Becker]

Martin, on previous projects, I've mixed the shellac fresh from flakes. For the armoire project, I'm going to try out a new water-based shellac product from Target Coatings and will likely spray it since the clean up is super easy.

[Jerry Olexa]

Martin many good ideas in this thread but you seem concerned about the complexity of Shellac. It is Very EASY to use and apply, probably the easiest finishing product I work with. Jim makes an excellent point about adding color and depth to Cherry but it is also EASY to work with (once it is mixed) and is an Excellent "between" coat. I love it but you usually need a topcoat to add durability! Good Luck!!

[Jim Becker]

I love it {shellac} but you usually need a topcoat to add durability!This whole concept of "durability" is where so many of us blindly buy into the marketing guru's story...that we have to top coat everything with "polyurethane" or other "durable" finishes. In fact, shellac is quite durable...just look at furniture that is hundreds of years old in homes and museums around the world...most of it is finished with shellac. Shellac provides a hard and transparent surface which in many cases, greatly enhances the character of the wood. It's about the most "moisture resistant" finish going (Moisture, not submersion in a bucket of water"-resistance) which is another reason it's a great seal coat. It's also easily renewable/reparable as compared to many finishes we can choose.

For a kitchen table, obviously, a good quality poly varnish might be the right product due to it's scratch resistance, but that's not necessary on so many other things. (It's the only project I've ever used poly on!) But a quality alkyd or phenolic varnish will also work well there as well as various lacquers...all of them are more than "durable" enough for the toughest jobs...when maintained.

The nicest thing about shellac (and lacquer) is the fact that when you use more than one coat/application, there are no layers like there are with varnishes...each application becomes "one" with the previous. When you sand to flatten the surface, you are in no danger of exposing those layer lines that you will get with varnishes, such as poly, if you happen to go too deep. Of course, shellac experts will also point out that there should only be one "coat"...you control the thickness with the cut and refine the surface by padding/polishing.

[Martin Shupe]

and here is their response.

Dear Martin...here is an attempt to answer your questions...

1. yes you can use the T&T under the Waterlox...we would suggest you follow their dry time suggestions but would assume a minimum of 24 hours between them.

2. Waterlox should also go over the Maloofs as long as you promise not to do it again. (I told him in my email that I wanted to do this, and I promised not to ever do it again, so he is making a joke here.)

3. As you suggest, the "rub out" procedure has many methods and 99% of them work...we really don't have one main method to describe.

4. The bubbles could have been caused by the solvent "popping" through the slightly "sun baked" top film...when you have any imperfections, you will need to remove the layer the imperfections are in...whether you use sand paper or steel wool is really up to you but as a suggestion, you will probably be better off using a 150 grit paper or 0000 steel wool.

5. The "bad actor" in Waterlox is mineral spirits, aka "paint thinner" and it is officially referred to as a "petroleum distillate". (I was asking about what kind of respirator to use.)

I apologize for the delay is replying to you as my computer was "sick" for a few days. You are most welcome for our time and please don't hesitate to call us or e-mail us with any other questions or comments you might have. Hope this helps and we are glad that Waterlox is working out for you !!

Jay Hawkins CEO
Waterlox Coatings Corp.
9808 Meech Ave.
Cleveland, OH 44105
216.641.4877 office
216.641.7213 fax
800.321.0377 toll free


Nice to see the CEO sending answers to questions about their product. Kinda reminds me of Rob Lee.