What do you think about Norm's kitchen?

[Dave Anthony]

In particular, would you consider MDF acceptable for painted cabinet faces/drawer fronts? I have a friend who has a rather high end (or at least expensive) home. All the trim, molding, etc. is painted MDF. I've always considered MDF to be an inferior material, though it does have some advantages such as stability and flatness. Is this just prejudice/snobishness on my part?

[Jerome Hanby]

I've used MDF in most of my projects so far.

It looks like the cabinets are frame and panel and the caucuses are plywood. So just the panels are MDF?

If that's the case, then I think MDF is a great choice. Flat, cheap, and takes paint well. If it's used anyplace where its edge is exposed, then I don't think much of it. It's too easy to dent (plus a pain to get sealed before painting).

[Neil Brooks]

I liked his logic: flat and dimensionally stable.

So far, I've liked his results, too.

I went with decent ply for the faces on my kitchen cabinets, but ... in hindsight ... would likely have been okay, either way.

[Logan William]

In the way he's using it I don't mind it. I'm using this series for ideas for my future kitchen refacing and although I had the same initial reaction when I heard MDF I've warmed to the concept. Although I probably won't use MDF on mine as current plan is all flat face fronts, but we'll see when that project gets closer.

[Chip Lindley]

MDF has earned it's place. Norm has chosen a material which can readily be had from Borgs everywhere, for a project which can be undertaken by a great amount of folks who do not own a jointer and planer. And painted cabinets are trendy at the moment.

MDF is cheap, consistent, and machinable with @home tools. Negatives are that MDF is heavy and dislikes moisture. Personally, I hate to see any decent hardwood covered with paint! But, humble MDF can be coated with the opaque finish of choice as an actual improvement.

MDF lends itself to cookie-cutter manufactured cabinets. High end kitchens employ MDF because the public permits it. There is huge profit from an attractive MDF kitchen. Even these do not come cheap! And, the price point of solid cherry cabinetry is totally out of reach for many! The idea of *kitchen as show piece* is relatively new. Stately old mansions had a very perfunctory kitchen area, visited only by servants/staff. The dining room was the show piece!

Many prospective homeowners have no clue about what constitutes quality cabinets. If *she* likes the kitchen color/layout, then *he* is happy too! The popularity of painted kitchens comes and goes. Light/dark comes and goes. But IMO solid natural wood is always IN! I will limit my use of MDF to shop cabinets or jigs and fixtures.

[scott vroom]

Are you referring to the kitchen Norm builds on the $100 dollar DVD set? I was abouy to lay out money for the set as a resource for my first kitchen cabinet job, but I plan to use plywood boxes and real wood face frames and doors. Is the joinery going to different using MDF vs wood face frames and doors? If so, I'll save the hundred bucks forego the DVD set.:eek:

[Matt Meiser]

Scott, the series is a great resource. IIRC, he only uses MDF for fields of doors. The face frames and door frames are wood. For boxes he used prefinished maple ply.

[scott vroom]

Hi Matt, thanks. I'm going to go ahead and get Norm's DVD set...I need all the help I can get!! I followed your cabinet project with great interest...I hope mine turns out as well....you did a great job!

Scott

[Dave Lehnert]

Many prospective homeowners have no clue about what constitutes quality cabinets. If *she* likes the kitchen color/layout, then *he* is happy too! The popularity of painted kitchens comes and goes. Light/dark comes and goes. But IMO solid natural wood is always IN! I will limit my use of MDF to shop cabinets or jigs and fixtures.

The reason IKEA is so popular. Their cabinets are nothing more than the knock down furniture you see at Wal-Mart.
Ever watch the house hunter shows on TV. The buyers never ask, Are the walls framed with 2x4 or 2x6? or are the cabinets solid wood/ It's all about what the paint color is or the lighting.

[Van Huskey]

MDF is flat, dimensionally stable AND paint goes down beautifully on it. If I wanted painted cabinets MDF for fields and dawer fronts would not bother me. Kitchen cabinets just don't get left in homes long enough to be remotely considered heirloom. If they get repurposed due to sizing issues they usually end up in garages et al. There is just no point in covering nice hardwood in paint especially when it will not look any better when the job is finished, well except for snob appeal.

[Matt Meiser]

Hi Matt, thanks. I'm going to go ahead and get Norm's DVD set...I need all the help I can get!! I followed your cabinet project with great interest...I hope mine turns out as well....you did a great job!

Scott


Thanks. Stay tuned for the sequel coming later this year. :D

And by the way, all the door panels in that project are cherry veneer MDF "plywood" which was way nicer than any 1/4" veneer core ply I've ever used.

[trevor adair]

I watched this series with great interest being the kitchen is one of the things on my ever growing list. The MDF as panels does not pose a problem to me for painted doors (as others have said, including Norm, it is stable and takes paint well). I did learn something right off the bat with the boxes where he cut the groove for biscuits, I will certainly use that method rather than trying to line them up. Not the first, or last thing Norm has taught me as a new woodworker.

[Victor Robinson]

The reason IKEA is so popular. Their cabinets are nothing more than the knock down furniture you see at Wal-Mart.
Ever watch the house hunter shows on TV. The buyers never ask, Are the walls framed with 2x4 or 2x6? or are the cabinets solid wood/ It's all about what the paint color is or the lighting.

IMHO most folks care only that the kitchen cabinets look nice, are durable, and that they have smooth function. The hardware (soft-closes, full extensions, etc.) is far more important than the material. It's only us wood snobs who care.

This is why Ikea kitchens are so popular among designers and contractors for high-end kitchens. High-end urban condos and lofts almost exclusively use Ikea or similar cabinets, not necessarily straight out of the box but with appropriate aesthetic hacks. Candice Olson (Divine Design, HGTV) uses Ikea carcasses with custom wood fronts in her kitchen makeovers. The material of the carcasses is most normal folks' last concern, and rightfully so IMHO. It has almost nothing to do with how that kitchen is going to function over time.

[joe puelo]

Can I chime in. In some situations MDF is a better choice like many engineered products. Seems to me about the same argument for 8" oak subflooring in older homes. It is a finer product, but lets face it, does it offer any advantage over modern Adventec flooring? NO. In fact the stability and water resistance make it better. In this case I think the dimensionaly stable part makes it a better product for this regardless of cost.

[Steven Hart]

MDF and other engineered wood products are an efficient use of limited resources. It's wasteful to use hardwood on a cabinet that's going to be painted (and whose useful life is likely only decades long, if that).

[scott vroom]

Thanks. Stay tuned for the sequel coming later this year. :D

And by the way, all the door panels in that project are cherry veneer MDF "plywood" which was way nicer than any 1/4" veneer core ply I've ever used.


Matt, what thickness was the cherry veneer MDF you used for your door panels? Where did you pourchase it? My local hardwood supplier doesn't carry it.

[Matt Meiser]

Matt, what thickness was the cherry veneer MDF you used for your door panels? Where did you pourchase it? My local hardwood supplier doesn't carry it.

It was nominal 1/4" (actually 6.something mm.) A friend with a commercial account ordered it for me through a local wholesale-only supplier.

[scott vroom]

It was nominal 1/4" (actually 6.something mm.) A friend with a commercial account ordered it for me through a local wholesale-only supplier.

I found a local supplier (MacBeath Hardwoods in San Jose) that carries veneer MDF and they claim it is a true 1/4". I'm going down there tomorrow to measure it for myself. They quoted me $23.93 for a 4x8 sheet of red oak. They also carry the MDF veneer for most other common hardwoods. I'm convinced this is the way to go for door panels.

Thanks-
Scott

[Matt Meiser]

This was about $67/sheet in cherry. I believe the core was true 1/4" but the veneer added to that.

[scott vroom]

This was about $67/sheet in cherry. I believe the core was true 1/4" but the veneer added to that.

The reason I'm so anal about the actual thickness of the door panel stock is that I plan to use my new (as yet unpurchased) router table to mortise the rails/stiles and I need to know the precise size of the mortise before purchasing the bit set. I've considered using my table saw and the 2 outer dado blades which when combined are 1/4 thick. It just seems easier to do this on a router table. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks-
Scott

[Matt Meiser]

Amana makes an some adjustable rail/stile bit sets.