The eternal question

[Lloyd Robins]

I am looking at adding a new plane. I have only tried Knight planes so far, and before going further I want to try a metal plane to compare. I have been reading in posts here and elsewhere that the Low Angle Jack with a second blade that has been ground to a higher angle is a good all around combination plane. Now the question. LV or LN? (Darn slope)

[Maurice Ungaro]

Lloyd...tell you what, I'v been thinking about one of those LV Low Angles for a while. I've compared them to the LN version, and think that the design of the LV is technically superior. Having said that, why don't you spring for the LV. IF you don't like it, I'll buy it from you.

Maurice

[Pam Niedermayer]

I love my LN LA jack and knowing LV quality, expect the LV is at least as good; however, since you're very experienced in using planes and seem to have several, I'd recommend something else. The LA jack/smoother is a great all around plane, capable of doing many tasks; therefore, I think it more suitable for a first plane.

Instead, why not look at Japanese smoothers, or C&W wooden planes? Or maybe an infill?


Pam

[Lloyd Robins]

Maurice, thanks for the offer. I am a teacher, and now that school is going again, I am trying to add to the workshop. I will let you know if I get the LV and how I like it. However, I have several items from LV, and I have yet to be tempted to get rid of one.

Pam, I didn't say very experienced. I still consider myself a newbie, and I am trying to teach myself as classes and my work schedule have not been compatible. I do like the feel of my Knight planes, but at times I feel that a little more heft might help. I have never had a well fettled metal plane in my hands, so before I go any further, I thought that I should try one. I would love an infill, but until I can get back up to Toronto to see my son and then slip over to the Shepherd site, an infill is pretty high dollar. Japanese planes (I understand) need fitting and the dai (is that correct?) can take quite a bit of upkeep. The C&W from Joel is quite tempting especially the high angle smoother, but again it is a wooden plane. Anyway that is my reasoning. Do you feel that metal planes are worth trying or would you stay with the wooden ones? Also, I thought that the LV or LN with a high angle blade might work better on highly figured wood than my 45 deg. Knight. Anyway sorry to ramble on so. :)

[Pam Niedermayer]

When I began, I bought piles of Stanley bench planes. I've got one left that I can't seem to unload, plus a LV 4.5 that's very nice that's used as a shooting plane and every now and then as a bench plane. Now I use almost all wooden planes, plus the LV and the LN LA jack (plus several LN speciality planes, like the 073 and 140).

The wooden planes I use are from HNT Gordon, various Japanese planes, including one I made the dai for myself and a custom Gomi/Inomoto I won, a C&W jack, ECE joiner. I really like the ECE reformed pimus smoother, but I'd reached a point of saturation before buying. Right now I'm about to make several more dai to experiment with bedding angles and different blades. So probably you can deduce my recommendation.

Pam

[Mark Kelly]

What brand of irons do you use for your woodies, Pam?

[Tom LaRussa]

When I began, I bought piles of Stanley bench planes. I've got one left that I can't seem to unload,
Which model?

[Pam Niedermayer]

What brand of irons do you use for your woodies, Pam?

Except for the Japanese planes, I use the stock blades that arrive with the planes. Japanese blades are Tsunesaburo, Tasai, Gomi, Muin, Ishida, and Mosaku. Please note that the Tsunesaburo, Tasai, and Mosaku blades I use are not readily available in the US, purchased them directly from a Japanese supplier.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Which model?

A 78.

Pam

[Lloyd Robins]

Pam, I just looked at the Japanese planes. Wow! Some of them make the LN's look very inexpensive. Are there any that are good that are on the teacher's salary side of the scale? Oh, just as a note, we had our first good rain in about a year. Looks like I will have to do a little work on my Knight's. A metal all around plane might be a good idea while the wooden ones have a day or two to stabilize before fettling. Anyway, that sounds like a good argument to convince myself and the LOML that I need a new plane. So many planes and so little money.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Haven't a clue as to what's affordable on a teacher's salary, or any other profession for that matter. However, a good plane for a reasonable price is available at Misugi Design, http://www.misugidesigns.com/tools2.html (this is Woodworking page 2). And Kayoko is a dream to deal with.

Pam

[Gene Collison]

Pam, I just looked at the Japanese planes. Wow! Some of them make the LN's look very inexpensive. Are there any that are good that are on the teacher's salary side of the scale? Oh, just as a note, we had our first good rain in about a year. Looks like I will have to do a little work on my Knight's. A metal all around plane might be a good idea while the wooden ones have a day or two to stabilize before fettling. Anyway, that sounds like a good argument to convince myself and the LOML that I need a new plane. So many planes and so little money.

_____________

Lloyd,

With the Costa Mesa WW show coming up soon, I would urge you to go and try out an LN 4 1/2 with 50 degree frog. I can pretty much guarantee that not very many metal planes will be as good as that one for smoothing anyway. I am speaking as an owner of Clifton's, LV', Ln's, ECE primus, CW's and more. I also like the LV LA smoother and the LN 62. Hope this helps. Have you read any of Lyn Mangiameli's plane tests?

Gene

[Lloyd Robins]

Pam, thanks for the note. Teachers, like everyone else, all feel picked on when it comes to salary. I am a little worried about the slippery slope of Japanese tools. I like western saws, at least partially because I am so ham-handed that I feel that I am less likely to damage the heavier saw. At the Woodworks show in Ontario last year, I did get to watch Toshio Odate do some very impressive things with a Japanese plane (at least I think that it was him.) I do really like my Japanese chisels. In fact, I am kind of afraid to go near Harrelson Stanley again this year. Last year I bought an expensive chisel from him. If I ask him about plane, I will be in deep trouble at home.
(Or at least the new bench will have to be postponed.) A further question that I have is will a 45 deg. angle on a Japanese plane handle the highly figured wood? Thanks.

Gene, I am already committed for the 5th and the 6th. I made some pretty unbreakable promises, so I will have to pass. I am planning on going to the Woodworks show in Ontario in February, but LN wasn't there last year. Fine Tools had some LN planes, but no try out area (Darn!) Yes, I have been reading Lyn's tests, and also the test that was posted here a few days ago about the LA LV 5-1/2. That is what prompted this posting. Is the LN 4-1/2 your favorite plane?

[Pam Niedermayer]

I've never planed highly figured Maple; but a 45° Japanese smoother should be able to handle the job. Harrelson is a good one to ask, he knows an incredible amount. One way to save money is to get a 54 or 60 mm blade instead of a 70 mm.

But for a workbench do you even need a smoother? You may find that the LN/LV LA jack will do all the smoothing you need, plus lots of other jobs, like levelling and jointing. If you're starting with rough lumber, you'll also probably benefit from a scrub, but these are very cheap.

Pam

[Lloyd Robins]

Pam, sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that the money for a new bench (Noden) might end up being used for a plane or other item. The slightly smaller planes are a little less aren't they. That brings us back to one of the main items. I have been told that dai's are rather hard to keep in tune. Is that true?

[Gene Collison]

Gene, I am already committed for the 5th and the 6th. I made some pretty unbreakable promises, so I will have to pass. I am planning on going to the Woodworks show in Ontario in February, but LN wasn't there last year. Fine Tools had some LN planes, but no try out area (Darn!) Yes, I have been reading Lyn's tests, and also the test that was posted here a few days ago about the LA LV 5-1/2. That is what prompted this posting. Is the LN 4-1/2 your favorite plane?[/QUOTE]

_________________

Lloyd,

I would have to say that I would prefer my LN 4 1/2 to any other smooth plane that I own. It just handles figured woods better. There is just something about it that really works, most likely the bedrock design, the weight and the build quality. BTW, the LV 4 1/2 is a totally different animal, not the same at all.

Gene

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that the money for a new bench (Noden) might end up being used for a plane or other item. The slightly smaller planes are a little less aren't they. That brings us back to one of the main items. I have been told that dai's are rather hard to keep in tune. Is that true?


I'm not familiar with Noden benches; but it's easy enough to make a serviceable bench, assuming you have some sort of work table to start with.

As to keeping dai in tune, that's not difficult at all. It's somewhat more difficult to know how to get it in tune, you have to learn about the geometry of the sole and abutments. The Odate book is a great place to start.

Pam

[Lloyd Robins]

Pam, I went out and got a book that had some information on Japanese planes. The author talks about tapping out the blade on an anvil horn each time that it is used to slightly curve the blade and having the very front of the dai even with the mouth of the blade, but having a concave area between the two. It goes on more than I have had time to get to, but it sounds rather involved to me. On the other hand he, like you says that he no longer uses western planes. Would Harrelson's new DVD help explain this better? I also note that the main smoothing planes do not seem to come in all sorts of lengths. Is it one size does all (except for the small specialty planes)? Thanks for the help. (I still like western saws. I did at one time have a Japanese saw. My son took it out and cut shrub limbs off with it. Yes, he is still alive.)

I think that I will order Odatesan's book.

Oh, the Noden bench is an adjustable height bench. If you are interested here is the url http://www.geoffreynoden.com/. The book also has notes on the Japanese trestle bench. They look interesting.

[Tom LaRussa]

I have never had a well fettled metal plane in my hands, so before I go any further, I thought that I should try one. I would love an infill, but until I can get back up to Toronto to see my son and then slip over to the Shepherd site, an infill is pretty high dollar. Japanese planes (I understand) need fitting and the dai (is that correct?) can take quite a bit of upkeep. The C&W from Joel is quite tempting especially the high angle smoother, but again it is a wooden plane. :)
Lloyd,

I'm just curious here, but it seems that the only planes you are even considering are, well, the expensive, "boutique" models.

Have you entirely ruled out buying something old and fettling it yourself? If nothing else it's a great learning experience, and if you don't like the plane afterward you can always turn around and sell it on ebay for about whatever you paid for it, possibly more 'cuz it'll be clean, but less shipping.

Tom

[Lloyd Robins]

Tom, I thought that the expensive, boutique planes were the Anderson's at $1,000, the very expensive Japanese planes at $800.00, the KTW's at $700.00 as sold on ebay (congrats to the member who offered it for $500 to any of us "creekers"), the Isles infills, or (gasp) the Holtey planes. These are all out of my reach. I thought that we were talking of the modern working planes for today's world. I have purchased some of Steve Knight's planes (actually from his sales on Ebay.) I currently have a smoother (45 deg), a jack, and a jointer. I like them very much. I was thinking of getting another one with a Japanese 55 deg. iron and weight for highly figured wood, which the 45 deg plane doesn't like (at least not with my sharpening skills.) I got reading some reports (see the earlier posting) and thought that I might could add a good plane for shooting miters (which would be new for me) and handle the figured wood at the same time. I have enjoyed and been caused to think by several of the posts. It has been very helpful and fun.

Now, to answer your question. I am dabbling in the world of older tools. I got a handsaw from a "creeker", and I have a Stanley 80 coming from an Ebay bid. I have been looking at the Stanley's on ebay as there are no old tool places in the California desert. I have not yet purchased one, because they are 45 deg. and would probably not be better than my Knight smoother. I know that I would probably learn a lot from working with an older plane, but right now my time is so limited in the shop that I want to work on wood when I am there. I have thought I would wait until the proper project presented itself to give an older plane a try (maybe next summer.) I though that a #3 would be useful to have. Unless Pam drags me (kicking and screaming) down the Japanese plane path. What do you think?

[Pam Niedermayer]

...On the other hand he, like you says that he no longer uses western planes. Would Harrelson's new DVD help explain this better? I also note that the main smoothing planes do not seem to come in all sorts of lengths. Is it one size does all (except for the small specialty planes)? Thanks for the help. (I still like western saws. I did at one time have a Japanese saw. My son took it out and cut shrub limbs off with it. Yes, he is still alive.)

...The book also has notes on the Japanese trestle bench. They look interesting.


Everything you need to make decisions about Japanese type benches will be in Odate's book, it's very thorough. I took a hybrid approach to a bench, added a Japanese planing beam to the back of a smallish western style bench, which is only adequate; but it did help me determine that I love the planing beam. I'm not quite sure where this is going to end up, have a bunch of nice 1/4 sawn white oak that would make a good bench of some sort. I've also got a couple of 2' diameter X 8' sycamore logs that are just crying for being a stand alone planing beam, etc. The Landis workbench book is a very good survey.

I use all sorts of tools, western, eastern, and inbetween, but no Stanleys. The LN's I have are the speciality planes plus a couple of their blocks, the LV 4.5 is the only western metal bench plane in my shop. BTW, there's no reason you can't use the planing beam with western planes, it's amazingly convenient to let gravity help in the process, allows you to avoid all sorts of clamping.

Harrelson's new DVD is fabulous, everything you need to know about sharpening Japanese blades. You don't need to tap out the irons all that often, usually only if a deformity is introduced or you run out of cutting steel in the right spots, that sort of thing.

Is there some reason you want an adjustable height bench?

Pam

[Lloyd Robins]

Pam, my back gives me troubles at times, and it would be nice to raise the bench for layout and things. I guess that I could have one adjustable (or at least higher) and still have a trestle or planing beam. Thanks, Lloyd

[Mark Kelly]

What is a planing beam?? Could you supply pictures of it and how to use it?

[Dan Moening]

Lloyd,

There are indeed old tools in the CA desert...you just need to know where (and when) to look:

http://www.toolswapusa.com/SwapMeetSchedule.htm

I've never been to one of these events, but have heard they are quite something. I really should get down so to SoCal a bit more often...

[Tom LaRussa]

Tom, I thought that the expensive, boutique planes were the Anderson's at $1,000, the very expensive Japanese planes at $800.00, the KTW's at $700.00 as sold on ebay (congrats to the member who offered it for $500 to any of us "creekers"), the Isles infills, or (gasp) the holtey planes. These are all out of my reach. I thought that we were talking of the modern working planes for today's world.
You know something?

You're right!

I've gotten so used to buying old planes for next to nothing that I have come to think of them as "normal" or "retail" pieces. Thus all of the good quality planes currently produced sort of naturally migrated in my mind over into the boutique department. :o

Still, having gotten started on the antique-user route, I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of spending five to ten times as much -- or more -- per plane. At those prices I think it would take me about ten years to build up a usable selection. :(



I have purchased some of Steve Knight's planes (actually from his sales on Ebay.) I currently have a smoother (45 deg), a jack, and a jointer. I like them very much. I was thinking of getting another one with a Japanese 55 deg. iron and weight for highly figured wood, which the 45 deg plane doesn't like (at least not with my sharpening skills.)
That's true, but if you use a thick enough blade in a woodie smoother you can just turn it bevel side up. Then you control the cutting angle by how you grind the bevel. With a standard 25 degree bevel you can practically turn a 45 degree plane into a scraper plane -- with an effective angle of 70 degrees!:eek:

Similarly, the standard Stanley #9 1/2 block plane has a 50 degree high angle plane hidden just below the surface. (Not as high as you're looking for, but I'm on a roll now, so I'm not stopping. :D ) It is made to work with the bevel up and has a bed angle of 20 degrees and a bevel angle of 25 degrees. So, all you have to do is increase the bevel angle to 30 degrees and voila! -- it's now a 50 degree "high angle" plane.



I know that I would probably learn a lot from working with an older plane, but right now my time is so limited in the shop that I want to work on wood when I am there.
Yeah, unfortunately life tends to get in the way of the better things quite a bit of the time, doesn't it?


I though that a #3 would be useful to have. Unless Pam drags me
(kicking and screaming) down the Japanese plane path. What do you think?
Hmm... I have a #4 and personally would not add a #3, because from what I understand it's practically identical except for being an inch shorter and a tad lighter. But you mentioned that you have a bad back, so the #3 might be a better choice for you, given that it is a bit smaller and lighter.


As for Japanese planes, I have mixed feelings about them. While I admire the Japanese tradition of fine craftsmanship, I find that many of the planes I've seen look so ... well ... plain as to be a turnoff. They tend to look like a piece of 6/4 lumber with a blade sticking out. Also, I've seen several makers who claim a Rockwell C hardness of 64 or even 66 for their blades, and, after doing some research on tool steel, I find it hard to believe that these blades would not have a tendency to chip and/or be quite difficult to sharpen.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...
As for Japanese planes, I have mixed feelings about them. While I admire the Japanese tradition of fine craftsmanship, I find that many of the planes I've seen look so ... well ... plain as to be a turnoff. They tend to look like a piece of 6/4 lumber with a blade sticking out. Also, I've seen several makers who claim a Rockwell C hardness of 64 or even 66 for their blades, and, after doing some research on tool steel, I find it hard to believe that these blades would not have a tendency to chip and/or be quite difficult to sharpen.

Tom, you need to very closely examine a high quality Japanese plane to understand the dai's (that piece of lumber) subtleties. Good place to start is with a straight edge applied to the sole. Perhaps a trip to the library for Odate's book on Japanese tools is a good place to start.

There's nothing difficult about sharpening a Japanese blade, nor about making a dai either, it's just that it's a bit more complex, not daunting.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

What is a planing beam?? Could you supply pictures of it and how to use it?

A planing beam is a long, thick board, say 6X6 or 8X8, which is angled slightly up away from the person planing. The piece to be planed is placed on the board with a stop at the bottom. You plane by pulling the plane toward you.

My test version was made from 2 2X4's face glued and attached to the bench with 3 carriage bolts (both ends and the middle of the bench), the top of the beam is about 1/8" below the top of the bench. When I need to use it as a long shooting board, I need do nothing more vis a vis setup. When I need to use it as a planing beam, I remove two of the carriage bolts and brace the beam on a stand at whatever height is desirable.

I posted photos of this on Badger Pond a few years ago, but lost a hard drive. Again, most libraries have Odate's book, which has photos and descriptions galore.

Pam

[Gene Collison]

Tom, you need to very closely examine a high quality Japanese plane to understand the dai's (that piece of lumber) subtleties. Good place to start is with a straight edge applied to the sole. Perhaps a trip to the library for Odate's book on Japanese tools is a good place to start.

There's nothing difficult about sharpening a Japanese blade, nor about making a dai either, it's just that it's a bit more complex, not daunting.

Pam

Not to hijack this thread but why go back hundreds of years and mess with these overpriced traditional tools when you can buy a working plane right across the counter with a nice A2 iron that is easy to sharpen and stays sharp for a very long time. I have a number of these type planes that can easily produce transparent shavings. An iron that is made from blue steel and I understand sometimes imported from Sweden hardened to 64 rockwell making it chip easily and a bear to sharpen somehow doesn't excite me. Am I missing something? I just can't believe that a Japanese plane will outperform a LN 4 1/2 without an adjustable mouth or chipbreaker at least on a consistant basis. And I am well aware of the performance that some wood planes are capable of, I have several expensive woodies myself. Woodies can be and sometimes are great but I don't see any reason to start pulling my planes. Your comments would be appreciated........

Gene

[Lloyd Robins]

Dan, thank you. I will take a look.

Mark, if you would like a look at a plan try this address (look through the pages. It might whet the appetite for the book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0941936465/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-9508687-9915916#reader-pagery
This is different from the trestle bench that I was looking at in Fine Woodworking's Bench Tools. It looks like two nice wooden sawhorses with a 4X8X8 or 10 soft softwood board to work on. There are screwdogs at one end. A 1X is placed on the trestles beside it to hold tools. You would need a separate top or bench for assembly. Both are very interesting concepts.

Tom, thank you for your thoughts about changing the angle on the woodies. I will have to think about that. At to planing, I don't know that the weight of the planes would make that much difference to my back. I just have to get things at the right height and angle so that I don't have to make funny twists while bending over. I am working on the bent over problem. I do understand about the Japanese planes. I would probably have to make it look nice (boutique) with a (Hon) red oak dai, but it is still very different from the standard western plane.

Gene, thank you for your recommendation on the LN 4-1/2. I have a weakness for LN tools (just not the money.) As to the Japanese planes many people swear by them, but they do seem to take some work and understanding to be at their best. Pricing range seems to be about what you can find with western planes. There are everyday planes and as Tom says boutique planes costing an awful lot.

Pam, I still worry about setting the plane so that it is level at only two or three points and keeping a proper curve on the blade. I guess that I will look at Toshio's book. Last year with one plane he demonstrated taking a pretty thick cut with a plane, then he tapped it with a hammer and took a medium cut. He then tapped it again and took a very fine cut. One more tap and he took a cut that produced shavings that you could easily read through and not tell they were there. It has made me interested.

[Tom LaRussa]

Tom, you need to very closely examine a high quality Japanese plane to understand the dai's (that piece of lumber) subtleties. Good place to start is with a straight edge applied to the sole. Perhaps a trip to the library for Odate's book on Japanese tools is a good place to start.
Okay, dangit. Now you got my curiosity up.

Where is that silly library card?.... :D

[Pam Niedermayer]

Not to hijack this thread but why go back hundreds of years and mess with these overpriced traditional tools when you can buy a working plane right across the counter with a nice A2 iron that is easy to sharpen and stays sharp for a very long time. I have a number of these type planes that can easily produce transparent shavings. An iron that is made from blue steel and I understand sometimes imported from Sweden hardened to 64 rockwell making it chip easily and a bear to sharpen somehow doesn't excite me. Am I missing something? I just can't believe that a Japanese plane will outperform a LN 4 1/2 without an adjustable mouth or chipbreaker at least on a consistant basis. And I am well aware of the performance that some wood planes are capable of, I have several expensive woodies myself. Woodies can be and sometimes are great but I don't see any reason to start pulling my planes. Your comments would be appreciated........

Gene

Gene, I'm not trying to talk you into replacing your planes. If you're happy with them, all is fine, do not be tempted. I was trying to help Lloyd choose his next plane.

I haven't found any Stanley style bench planes that approach the finish I get using Japanese planes. I suspect the primary difference is the blade thickness, but that's certainly not all of it, the sole shape is also extremely important. My results are superior, but they don't come cheap, I've worked long and hard to get them and spent some money.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

...

Pam, I still worry about setting the plane so that it is level at only two or three points and keeping a proper curve on the blade. I guess that I will look at Toshio's book. Last year with one plane he demonstrated taking a pretty thick cut with a plane, then he tapped it with a hammer and took a medium cut. He then tapped it again and took a very fine cut. One more tap and he took a cut that produced shavings that you could easily read through and not tell they were there. It has made me interested.

Odate-san is an expert who's skills I admire greatly. I can't do what he did at the show vis a vis planes yet, pretty much concentrating on taking very thin shavings; but I'm working on it.

Pam

[Gene Collison]

I haven't found any Stanley style bench planes that approach the finish I get using Japanese planes. I suspect the primary difference is the blade thickness, but that's certainly not all of it, the sole shape is also extremely important. My results are superior, but they don't come cheap, I've worked long and hard to get them and spent some money.

Pam[/QUOTE]

__________

Pam,

Thanks for your reply. I commend you if you are getting results that good. I guess it is selfish thinking on my part to imply that my way is the best way, you have worked diligently on alternative tools and implementation. I fully respect that.
Gene