L-N Blades not flat?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I've had 2 L-N blades come from their grind that aren't flat. The first was on a LA jointer plane and the second off of a a new blade I bought for a #4 1/2 smoother. One was base low on the right hand corner and the other on the left hand corner. They make a great product and I this is not intended to flame. I'm relatively new to hand planing but was under the impression that L-N blades come absolutely flat. Just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience.

[Josh Bowman]

I had ask the question with the same experience on Hock blades. I had bought 3 over the holidays and found them out quite a bit. After talking with Ron Hock and the fine folks here, I came to peace that the ruler trick was the best approach. I'm reading Hocks sharpening book now and have talked with a friend that's a blacksmith. Steel is magic. In other words it's not an exact science. Hock told me that when the thing comes out of the heat and is cooled things happen....sometimes for a while afterward. Anyway, after giving in and using a piece of thin flashing on my water stone as the ruler, 1/2 hour later I had the lower 1/2" of all three blades mirror flat. The Hock blade in my Stanley 112 and Bedrock 4 really cut much better. So the thickness makes it worth it. Wish I could just get 1 blade that I didn't have to flatten though....I hate flattening blades!

[Tri Hoang]

I've never have a LN blade that does not require extensive back-flattening. It's a stark contrast compared to a LV blade, which typically take 5-10 minutes to go from 1000 to 8000. I own at least 6 LN blades (from new in box) and and 8-9 LV.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Josh, I love the ruler trick too. But right out of the box I like to flatten on 1000g with no ruler. For 2 reasons, to use as a reference point, i.e., to see just how flat or out of flat it is and the 2nd bigger reason: I find that without a little polish on the back, the ruler slides around too much. I found that when I back flatten with no ruler at 1000g then 8000g and I'm talking not for long, 10-20 strokes a piece at the most. Then afterwards, the ruler stays perfectly in place. I think the factory grind is a little rough and my method reduces the friction on the ruler.
Tri, I'd be very happy with 5-10 minutes of grinding. I've been at the back of this blade for over an hour with 220 grit on the Worksharp.

[Rick Erickson]

I have never had a LN blade that took longer than 5-minutes straight from the box (unless changing the blade angle).

[David Cockey]

Did you check the back of the blade against a known flat surface such as a granite surface plate (inexpensive ones are available) or a verified flat table saw surface? If so how much is the blade out of plane?

Grinding for over an hour with 220 sounds like you've removed considerable metal. Can you measure how much with a micrometer or good set of calibers.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Dave, I first noticed it was out of flat when I was flattening the back on my 1000g stone (without ruler) I knew the stone to be flat because I just lapped flat on 1/4 plate glass/sandpaper. I then took it over to my worksharp where I started on it with 1000g paper which is flat because it's glass wheel.
After the 1000g wasn't cutting it I moved down to 220g....an old piece of 220 g. I'm not to good about changing sandpaper so it wasn't like I was grinding on it with true 220. First picture shows blade after ~ 30 minutes of grinding. You can see in the upper right how low it was.
After I got it flat I polished it a bit and went back to my stones with the ruler trick and it didn't take much time at all before I got it back to nice and sharp, all the way across. See the resulting shavings.
PS I don't have a micrometer but my decimal caliper showed I removed under .0005 of material, taking measurements from the front to back of blade.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I haven't had a LN plane/blade that I couldn't use right out of the box, but I haven't bought any for a couple or three years.

Pam

[Jim Barrett]

See this video of Rob Cosman taking a LN plane (new out of the box) and in one minute sharpen and with the ruler trick on the back produce a .0005 shaving. He does not flatten the back of the plane except for using the ruler trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvop_JCfZGI&feature=related

Jim

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Looks like you're trying to flatten the entire thing, which is not necessary. You only need to flatten from the cutting edge to where the chipbreaker contacts it. I only flatten the smallest area I can get to register on the stone, which usually comes out to about 3/8". As the cutting edge moves up the iron with repeated grinding and honing cycles over time, the flat and polished area will move with it.

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I understand all about the David Charlesworth's ruler trick, Rob Cosman and Deneb Pulchaski's tips for that matter. This goes back to my original post where I didn't have a flat iron to begin with. Far from it, in fact. Using the ruler trick, I would have been sitting there a lot longer than the time I spent on the Worksharp. I guarantee if Rob had the same iron I had, it wouldn't be no 30 second hone job.
I was just asking if anyone else noticed any out of flat L-N irons,

[Jim Barrett]

Jim,
I would give them a call and tell them what your are experiencing. Sure they will advise you.

Jim

[David Keller NC]

Jim - Sort of off-topic, but it may be worth noting that the Worksharp glass plates aren't flat to the tolerances that one needs for flattening the backs of things. They do fine for the bevels of chisels and carving tools, and can even be used in a pinch to flatten the back of narrow chisels, but of the couple I've measured, they were well outside of a thousandth of an inch of flat measured over a 2" radial span.

That might not sound like much, but it's huge when you're trying to flatten the back of a wide blade.

[Tri Hoang]

Using back bevel (i.e. ruler trick) would certainly speed up the process. One could argue that the Woodriver blade could be prepared quickly using back bevel as well. However, not everyone prefer the use of back bevel thus the initial flattening of the back.

In my experience, an out of the box LN blade would be what most people call dull...it will cut but not very nice. LN sharpen the very tip of the back so that their blades are serviceable out of the box. However, that often causes part of the tip of the blade to be lower than the immediate area behind the tip. Thus it requires some significant effort to flatten say the 1st 0.5" of the blade.

In contrast, the LV blades have nicely flatten back. A couple minutes on the 1000 grit is enough to create nice/even scratch pattern.

[Carl Maeda-San Diego]

I have 4 LN planes and 3 of them came with flat blades. The fourth one had a slight hollow near the bevel so I had to flatten the back on a course drit diamond stone and then a fine before using the ruler trick.

[Jim Koepke]

Reading this kind of makes me smile. Ever try to get the pits out of the back of an old Stanley blade? I was working on a couple today. One has a slight hollow spot in the center about 3/8 inch from the edge. It also was out of square from someone inexperienced trying to sharpen it in the past. The other had a lot of pits. They were few, small and only the first 3/16 inch from the edge, but they are still a problem.

Just because the Worksarp uses glass plates does not necessarily mean it is perfectly flat. Glass is what is known as a super cooled liquid. Glass can flex. If you suspend a piece of thin glass on the ends and put some weight in the center, over time it will sag. I have worked with pyrex and have pulled it into a thin fairly flexible thread.

There could also be bubbles under the abrasive sheet. There is also a possibility of the removed metal piling up under the blade and lifting part of it up.

Another thing to consider if you put a camber on your blades. I have purposely made blades with the outside edges like yours. It has an effect similar to cambering a blade.

jim

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Reading this kind of makes me smile. Ever try to get the pits out of the back of an old Stanley blade? I was working on a couple today. One has a slight hollow spot in the center about 3/8 inch from the edge. It also was out of square from someone inexperienced trying to sharpen it in the past. The other had a lot of pits. They were few, small and only the first 3/16 inch from the edge, but they are still a problem.

Just because the Worksarp uses glass plates does not necessarily mean it is perfectly flat. Glass is what is known as a super cooled liquid. Glass can flex. If you suspend a piece of thin glass on the ends and put some weight in the center, over time it will sag. I have worked with pyrex and have pulled it into a thin fairly flexible thread.

There could also be bubbles under the abrasive sheet. There is also a possibility of the removed metal piling up under the blade and lifting part of it up.

Another thing to consider if you put a camber on your blades. I have purposely made blades with the outside edges like yours. It has an effect similar to cambering a blade.

jim

Jim, That puts things in perspective for me when I read your comments about a badly pitted Stanley blade. Makes me feel like the sniveling rich kid. :p But dang gumbit, LN planes/blades are sold at a premium price, and not found for bargain at some yard sale. They should be flat if they are sold as flat IMHO. One blade, ok, I can see. Things happen. But 2 blades?
That's interesting about glass not always flat. I never thought of that. I'll have to check mine somehow. What do you use to flatten your stones?
Jim

[David Keller NC]

That's interesting about glass not always flat. I never thought of that. I'll have to check mine somehow. What do you use to flatten your stones?
Jim

You can check the worksharp plate by placing a high-quality machinist's straightedge (generally this means "Starrett", though Mitutoyos are also good) on its edge on the glass plate, then using a good set of automotive feeler gauges to check for gaps.

In my case, I flatten my japanese waterstones on broken-in 400 grit silicon carbide sandpaper on a grantie surface plate. I've also used this technique on antique oilstones. It works well so long as you use very light pressure and completely cover the surface of the sandpaper with your lapping strokes.

From the standpoint of customer satisfaction, you can call Lie-Nielsen. More than likely, they will replace the blades you're not happy with.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

David has given a good answer for achieving among the best results for stone flattening.

I use a hunk of tile and PSA papers. When this is done, my results are acceptable for me. Some day I will be able to get a granite surface plate with likely much better results for stone flattening and plane sole flattening.

I would advise wearing a dust mask when you do this. It may also be a good idea to have a shop vacuum and brush close at hand to clean up the grit coming off the stone.

Be considerate to the vacuum, if it is a wet and dry, maybe have some moist material, like sawdust or shavings, to capture the dust at the bottom of the vacuum. Also, wrap the filter with an old tee shirt. The idea is to keep as much of the stone dust from getting into the impeller and motor as is possible and practical. Clean out the vacuum after the stone work to keep the dust from staying in the vacuum to be sucked into the motor next time it is used.

The thing most to my dislike when flattening my 8000 stone is when flattening a back after flattening, the blade tends to get stuck.

jim

[David Keller NC]

One thing I left out of the note about stone flattening is that I do this with water - the sandpaper is stuck down to the granite surface place with water surface tension (soak the paper for at least 30 mintues to ensure the backing is saturated. Otherwise, it will curl). The stones are soaked in water prior to flattening, so when flattening a slurry is produced instead of dust. I rinse this off the sandpaper frequently to prevent it from building up on the edges and causing the stone to dish in the center.

One other thought is emphasizing very light pressure. I've found that if I bear down on stone with much if any force, one end of the stone will get abraded more than the other, and while the end result is a flat surface, it causes one end of the stone to be thinner than the other over time.

[Sandy Stanford]

I had ask the question with the same experience on Hock blades. I had bought 3 over the holidays and found them out quite a bit. After talking with Ron Hock and the fine folks here, I came to peace that the ruler trick was the best approach. I'm reading Hocks sharpening book now and have talked with a friend that's a blacksmith. Steel is magic. In other words it's not an exact science. Hock told me that when the thing comes out of the heat and is cooled things happen....sometimes for a while afterward. Anyway, after giving in and using a piece of thin flashing on my water stone as the ruler, 1/2 hour later I had the lower 1/2" of all three blades mirror flat. The Hock blade in my Stanley 112 and Bedrock 4 really cut much better. So the thickness makes it worth it. Wish I could just get 1 blade that I didn't have to flatten though....I hate flattening blades!

Shouldn't the Ruler Trick be optional?

[Tom Henderson2]

This comes up frequently.

LV uses a sophisticated rotary lapping machine to flatten the back of their blades; the results are the flattest blades in the industry right out of the box.

LN employs a manual process to flatten the backs. Better than nothing, but not as flat as LV, and like any manual process some will be better than others.

You pays your money and takes your choice. The overall LN product quality is outstanding and I cherish those that I own. But I griped when I got a low corner on a blade a while back too.

My $0.02

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

IIRC, LV only uses that process on their O1 irons. A2 irons are definately more of a PITA to produce, although I do like them for their longevity.

As I said in my previous post, flattening the entire area 2" up from the edge is not necessary. I flatten the smallest area I can get to register on the stone, which ends up around 3/8" to 1/2" from the edge. This is only one square inch of surface area, as opposed to four square inches! As the cutting edge moves up the iron with repeated grinding and honing cycles over time, the flat and polished area will move with it naturally.

I am not a fan of the ruler trick for new irons. I've used it on vintage irons with pitting to salvage what would otherwise only be good for scrap, but for me, that's where its merits end. A shortcut which must be used every time you sharpen, is no longer a shortcut.

my $.02

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

Tim, I find I have better control dropping it on a revolving wheel when I put more blade on the wheel. Important to be sure to first contact the heel of the blade first, then drop the leading edge on to avoid rolling over the edge. Once it's on the wheel I slide it back so there's only about an inch or less on the wheel. That's why in my picture it shows more rough scratches high up on the blade.

[Chris Friesen]

IIRC, LV only uses that process on their O1 irons. A2 irons are definately more of a PITA to produce, although I do like them for their longevity.

I am not a fan of the ruler trick for new irons. I've used it on vintage irons with pitting to salvage what would otherwise only be good for scrap, but for me, that's where its merits end. A shortcut which must be used every time you sharpen, is no longer a shortcut.

You'd be incorrect...LV uses it on their A2 irons as well, and on the soles of some of their planes.

As for the ruler trick, on repeat honings you should be honing off the burr on the back anyways, so if you simply do this with the ruler on the stone it takes basically no additional time.

According to Brent Beach's testing you will end up with a wear bevel on the back side when using bevel-up blades. The ruler trick may also help polish the wear bevel resulting in a sharper blade than just polishing the back flat on the stone (which would end up not affecting the back side of the cutting edge at all).

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

O.K., that makes sense. I just remember the first time I attempted to flatten the back of a plane iron -- the entire area up to the slot! Nobody else needs to waste the kind of time I did. Wish I could get those hours back!

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Good to know LV is doing that on all their irons now -- they weren't in the beginning.

To each his own on the ruler trick -- that's been debated far too much already. I've read Brent's stuff, and am aware of the geometry of the wear bevel on BD irons. I probably overcome that with a few swipes on a strop, which I've read is evil, but it works for me. In the end, whatever gets people to the level of sharpness they need for the work they do is great.

[Eddie Darby]

I got a LN blade that had a corner dubbed, and they replaced it no questions asked.


Rob Cosman sharpening at a Woodcraft Demo on Youtube.com.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvop_JCfZGI


http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/A+New+Golden+Age+A+Polished+One+At+The+Least.aspx

[Joel Goodman]

+1 on LN making the customer happy -- if you have an issue with something from there give em a call.

[Harry Goodwin]

I must admit when you folks talk about that ruler trick. For all my years of messing with wood I cringe when you talk about raising the blade on the back. Some of us just have been of the closest to flat society. I also would be reluctant to buy a used LN or LV because once you do it it's irreversible without a tremendous amount of work. A new blade would be the only flat option. A course stone helps on the original flattening. Harry