Festool CT22-E Shop Vac Eval.....PICS

[Dennis Peacock]

Greetings from Arkysaw.

This is one of my intial reviews of more tools and accessories from the Festool line of tools for the woodworker in mind.

Here's the review of the Festool CT22-E Shop Vac.

Packing: The vac came well packed and was well protected during shipping.
A/C Adapter: The vac came with an electrical plug adapter to allow common hookup to the U.S. type electrical 110V outlets.

Appearance: The vac appears to be very well made and up to the more commonly remarked "high Festool" standards. The inside of the vac is very well thought out and the <b>1 micron</b> filters are located in the top-rear of the vac, just above the location where the internal materials bag is located.

The rear wheels have locks to prevent the vac from rolling around without you really wanting it to move around. The front wheels are larger than the most common shop-vac type wheels. All the wheels are made of the same material as the vac, plastic.

The lid is held shut via two side clips/levers and the top half of the vac raises up for easy access for bag changing. The top of the vac has two Festool style clips to secure the Festool Systainer to the top of the vac so you can roll the vac and tool(s) around easily. I even lifted the vac and the circular saw together by the Systainer handle and carried them from the house to the shop just to see if it was strong enough to carry around as if I was on location at a job site. This worked very well, secure and easy. In this fashion, the vac, saw and any other Systainer'd tools could be stored all in the same foot print as the vac. Very handy for many that have tight spaces in the shop or garage and have limited storage space for tools.

How loud is the Vac? Well, let's just say that it's a LOT quieter than any vac that I have (2 shop vacs, 1 standard screaming shop vac and a Shop-Vac Quiet-Vac) and it's even quieter than the LOML's vac in the house. Running at full power, you can still carry on a normal conversation without having to raise your voice to talk over the vac.

<B>Joe Meazle</B> helped me work on evaluating the Saw, Vac and GuideRail System from Festool. Thanks Joe....you were a big help. :D

Now on to the pics and I'll make more comments further down.

[Dennis Peacock]

In the first pic:

This is the "business end" of the vac. The little green piece on the top left is one of the "latches" that will lock a Systainer. The next thing to remember is that Festool calls this a "Dust Extractor" and not a Shop Vac. So now that we have that straight...... :D

The next this to look at, is the little "square" plate on the front and you raise this up and is where you would plug in the saw, sander or whatever you want to run while providing power control to the vac when the tool is "engaged". The Dust Extractor has three settings. 1. Off (of course), 2. Manual (which allows you to manually turn ON the vac without triggering any tool connected to the dust extractor), 3. Auto (which leaves the vac in the off mode until you trigger a tool and that causes the vac to power up and run while you are using the power tool on the end of the extraction hose. This control knob is further to the right side of the pic and is the Large Green dial switch, top right on the front of the vac. The small green dial is the "variable speed" control. It appears that all of the tools from Festool have variable speed controls built into them. I don't know why you would want to run the dust extractor on any other speed that FAST, but, who knows......

When tested with the saw, the dust extractor operated very smoothly. The control of the On/Off of the vac via the remote power tool worked very well. The vac continued to run even after the power tool was shut off, and this was only for a short time.

On the next pic, is the rear side of the dust extractor. You see the other Green Clip that locks the Systainer in place on top of the extractor. If you don't have a tool to "lock in" on top of the vac, there is a built in handle to in which to carry the extractor from location to location. The screw holes in the back are for the power cord. The cord simply winds around the holders to keep the extractor and cord all in a nice neat package. Looking at the wheels, you'll see the wheel locks. These work very well and are easy to lock/unlock. The big green square on the back is a "handle" that when pulled and pushed will "scrub" the top side of the 1 micron filters to dislodged any fine dust that may have accumulated in the pleats. Even after a bunch of sawing and collecting dust, there were NONE in either of the pleated filters.

The next pic, and near the bottom-front side of the dust extractor is an outlet for the hose. Insert the hose end that normally connects to the extractor side, and this will "blow air" from the vac. None of my shop-vacs will do this. I can see where this would come in "handy" when you didn't have and air supply and you needed to blow something off. No...it's not compressed air, but it is an aimable air supply to gently blow dust off of something or blow air in your face on a hot summer day.!!!! :eek: :D

<B>Pros:</B>
Very well made.
Very quiet running.
Very good job on collecting dust "at the tool".
Easy filter bag replacement.
Easy 1 micron pleated filter changes.
Convient cord storage.
Locking wheels.
Variable Speed (for when you need variable speed on a vac).
Remote vac control via attached power tool for power On/Off.
Well balanced unit as a whole.
Top half of the extractor locks in the UP position so you don't have to hold it open while changing filters.
Extractor continues to run for a short time after the remote power tool has been turned off.

<B>Cons:</B>
Only 1. The extractor only runs for about 1 second after the remote power tool is turned off. This really needs to run for about 5 seconds to allow for better clearing of the hose to prevent you from dumping a lot of dust out of the hose and onto the floor. :rolleyes:
Will this longer run time "prevent" all the dust from staying inside the hose? No, but you can at least shake the hose and allow more of the dust to be sucked up into the vac for "improved" dust collection.

Well, that's it for now. More coming on the ATF55 E-Plus Saw, and the GuideRails.

This is only my findings and views from using this tool and nothing more. I just wanted to pass along to others about what my impressions were about this "dust extractor". My view is my view and is not effected by Festool corporation or any member of SMC, or any other ww'ing forum.

Get one and experience it yourself. :D

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the review Dennis. I already have the Festool Shop Vacuum (I refuse to call it a "Dust Extractor"), so I did not learn anything new but, I wanted to comment that the review is well written and does seem to cover all important aspects of the machine.

I do have a couple of specific comments:



I don't know why you would want to run the dust extractor on any other speed that FAST, but, who knows......

According to what I have read from others (eg. John Miliunas), you should be running the Festool sanders with less than full power in the vac. John had to cut holes in the hose that when he used a Fein vac with a Festool sander. I don't (yet) own a Festool sander, so I can't verify this.



<B>Pros:</B>
...
Convient cord storage.

I disagree. It takes me more time than I would like to wrap the cord around the holders and I have to be quite careful when doing so or the cord later gets unravelled. I would much prefere a retractable cord or, at least, a detachable cord.

[Joe Meazle]

Dennis,

No need to thank me, I had a great time getting see and use this stuff. I think it is great that Festool wants to get the opinion and thoughts of real everyday woodworkers pro and hobbyist. I also appreciate you giving you time to conduct test as best as you can and share the results with other via the forum. I vaule the opinions that I read here very much. I don't always agree but I do value them very much.

As you know I pretty much second what you stated in the review. You also noticed some stuff I didn't see. I would only add a couple of comments.
Pros:

If you completely buy in to the Festool system the DE is also doubles as a cart that all of your Festool Systainers can lock into. I don't want to open up the tool case debate here. In my opinion this feature would be very handy for onsite work. I hate lugging a bunch of stuff around when I go to a job. In my opinion this is a standout feature that might encourage me to purchase Festool.

Compact and efficient use of space, would easily store under a workbench or outfeed table. You know that I am mindful of that kind of thing with the micro shop that I have.

Cons: This thing is expensive. I thought I spent a lot of $$$ when I bought my Fein vac. But we all know that you get what you pay for.

Those are just my obverstions with some opinion thrown in hope that helps.

Thanks,
Joe

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Dennis,

thanks for this thoroughly written review.



According to what I have read from others (eg. John Miliunas), you should be running the Festool sanders with less than full power in the vac. John had to cut holes in the hose that when he used a Fein vac with a Festool sander.


I agree with Frank. There's usually no need to run the vac on full power when attached to a sander. And less power means less noise. But more important, the sanders might "stick" to the workpiece if suction can't be lowered.

Regards,

Christian

[Bob Marino]

"According to what I have read from others (eg. John Miliunas), you should be running the Festool sanders with less than full power in the vac. John had to cut holes in the hose that when he used a Fein vac with a Festool sander. I don't (yet) own a Festool sander, so I can't verify this".

Frank,

When using the 6" ros's, (that have more mass), I almost always use full power on the dust extractor. However, with the smaller sanders, that are lighter and have a thinner pad, I adjust the suction accordingly.

Bob

[John Miliunas]

Nice write-up, Dennis! Thank you for a good and objective overview. :) The "bad" thing is, just like you did to me close to a year ago, you're doing again: Getting me hungry for a specific tool, namely another Fes! :eek: But, I shall resist! That and start praying my old screamer C-man takes a dump! :D Thanks again! :cool:

[Rich Konopka]

When using the 6" ros's, (that have more mass), I almost always use full power on the dust extractor. However, with the smaller sanders, that are lighter and have a thinner pad, I adjust the suction accordingly.

Bob


Bob:

Can you tell me how many Db the Festool vacum is rated at when running at full power?

Thanks

[Dennis Peacock]

"According to what I have read from others (eg. John Miliunas), you should be running the Festool sanders with less than full power in the vac. John had to cut holes in the hose that when he used a Fein vac with a Festool sander. I don't (yet) own a Festool sander, so I can't verify this".

Frank,

When using the 6" ros's, (that have more mass), I almost always use full power on the dust extractor. However, with the smaller sanders, that are lighter and have a thinner pad, I adjust the suction accordingly.

Bob

I will test the vac tonight with the ES125 sander AND the ES150 and check this suction thing. :rolleyes: :D

[Dennis Peacock]

I have corrected the review on the "Pleasted Filters".

Those filters are Pleated...they are <b>not</b> HEPA filters, they are <b>1 Micron Filters</b>....so If you missed that correction in the review....you didn't miss it here. :D

[Dennis Peacock]

John had to cut holes in the hose that when he used a Fein vac with a Festool sander. I don't (yet) own a Festool sander, so I can't verify this.

I disagree. It takes me more time than I would like to wrap the cord around the holders and I have to be quite careful when doing so or the cord later gets unravelled. I would much prefere a retractable cord or, at least, a detachable cord.

Frank,

I'll be testing the sander/vac setup tonight with my own Festool sanders. We'll see how this goes.

Cord storage....I was simply comparing the Festool vac cord storage to the cord storage on my other two shop vacs.....which is basicly none. Sorry if I confused you. ;)

[Jim Becker]

On the speed control question, I find that with course grits on the sanders, full-blast is no problem. But as the grits get finer, there is a definite, although subtle "sticky" effect on the tool. These vacs have a lot of "real" power. Further, turning it down just a bit doesn't seem to affect extraction effectiveness and also lowers the sound level even more. I gess I've been running it at about 3/4 most of the time with perfect satisfaction.

I am considering replacing the adapter pigtail on the cord with a US-style plug...not because it's a problem...just for personal preference.

[Steven Wilson]

...I am considering replacing the adapter pigtail on the cord with a US-style plug...not because it's a problem...just for personal preference.
Jim, the plug on the end of the vac is a properly terminated 20A, US style plug. The electrics are designed to support the vac and an attached tool that combined draws more than 15amps, hence the requirement for a 20A 110V plug. In my shop the 110V circuits are 20A and so are the recepticals. When I use the vact in the house the pigtail is a great reminder not to load up the 15A circuits with too much current draw. I first became aware of the 20A 110V plug with some studio recording equipment I purchased a few years back.

[Byron Trantham]

Dennis,
Nice review. I have had mine for several months now and I really like it. :D To reinforce some of the comments about using it for dust collection and portable tools; I use a PC 5", 8 hole ROS and I have to turn the suction down to about the middle. When I first used it with the ROS, I had it at full power and I couldn't move the sander very well! ;)

I made several adapters to accommodate my Circular Saw, DeWalt biscuit cutter, Delta stationery sander, Jet OSS and of course the ROS.

See them at: http://www.wooddreams.net/festool_vac.htm

[Jim Becker]

Jim, the plug on the end of the vac is a properly terminated 20A, US style plug. Ya know...I forgot to look carefully at the blade orientation and just assumed it was the 240v version, even though in retrospect, that doesn't make sense. Silly me! I have "real" 20a outlets on my 20a circuits so that deals with the issue of the pigtail poste-haste. Thanks for the heads-up!

[Jason Roehl]

Ok, I don't have a Festool vac, nor do I intend to ever get one until I have gobs of disposable income I can waste (or spend frivolously, or however you want to put it). But, here's are questions for you, Dennis, that I believe you overlooked in your review. How compatible are the Festool hoses and fittings with the standard hoses and fittings commonly available at the borgs? In other words, do they fit well with the 1.25" and 2.5" everybody has been using for years on their ShopVacs, or do you need adapters from Festool? I have 2 Festool sanders (the Deltex and the Rotex), and I'm very disappointed in the proprietary fitting on them. Sure, there's an "adapter grommet" available from Festool (which I have), but it doesn't stay on well, nor is ITS outlet very compatible with the common English sizes.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Festool stuff is well-made, but they had to make a U.S. version to begin with (120V), so they may as well have made it to work with commonly available accessories as well. I certainly think it would help their U.S. marketability. It's tough enough to spend $400+ on a sander, but to have to spend another $400 on a vac to use 1/2 of its strong points (the dust collection in the tool) to their full capability is patently ridiculous. I'd sure like to see the static pressure/cfm numbers on a $100 ShopVac with 6' of 2.5" hose to see how they really compare with a Festool vac and its 27mm(not the 1" they claim--1"=25.4mm last time I checked) hose. Sure, noise is a factor, but I don't find my recently purchased ShopVac to be all that loud, and if I'm using it for any length of time (like with a noisy Rotex--they're right-angle after all), I wear ear muffs anyway.

After all, how many of you would buy a router that did not have 1/4" and 1/2" bit capability?

Ok, this got a little long, so I'm not going to duck, I've got time to run by the time you read this. :D

[Bob Marino]

Bob:

Can you tell me how many Db the Festool vacum is rated at when running at full power?

Thanks
Rich,


72 db at full suction, lower at lower suction.

Bob

[JayStPeter]

Ok, I don't have a Festool vac, nor do I intend to ever get one until I have gobs of disposable income I can waste (or spend frivolously, or however you want to put it). But, here's are questions for you, Dennis, that I believe you overlooked in your review. How compatible are the Festool hoses and fittings with the standard hoses and fittings commonly available at the borgs? In other words, do they fit well with the 1.25" and 2.5" everybody has been using for years on their ShopVacs, or do you need adapters from Festool? I have 2 Festool sanders (the Deltex and the Rotex), and I'm very disappointed in the proprietary fitting on them. Sure, there's an "adapter grommet" available from Festool (which I have), but it doesn't stay on well, nor is ITS outlet very compatible with the common English sizes.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Festool stuff is well-made, but they had to make a U.S. version to begin with (120V), so they may as well have made it to work with commonly available accessories as well. I certainly think it would help their U.S. marketability. It's tough enough to spend $400+ on a sander, but to have to spend another $400 on a vac to use 1/2 of its strong points (the dust collection in the tool) to their full capability is patently ridiculous. I'd sure like to see the static pressure/cfm numbers on a $100 ShopVac with 6' of 2.5" hose to see how they really compare with a Festool vac and its 27mm(not the 1" they claim--1"=25.4mm last time I checked) hose. Sure, noise is a factor, but I don't find my recently purchased ShopVac to be all that loud, and if I'm using it for any length of time (like with a noisy Rotex--they're right-angle after all), I wear ear muffs anyway.

After all, how many of you would buy a router that did not have 1/4" and 1/2" bit capability?

Ok, this got a little long, so I'm not going to duck, I've got time to run by the time you read this. :D

Jason,

I can't answer for the vac itself. But, I bought a Festool hose that fits right into my Craftsman and Fein. So, I would assume that the hoses from those vacs would fit into the Festool vac if desired. I'm sure there's some equivalent number of mm that comes close enough to 2.5" to work together.

BTW, that particular hose fits my PC sanders and DW biscuit joiner fantastically. Thus allowing me to throw away my kludged together adaptors. So, I consider the Festool hose more "universal" than the ones that came with the other two.

Jay

[Byron Trantham]

Ok, I don't have a Festool vac, nor do I intend to ever get one until I have gobs of disposable income I can waste (or spend frivolously, or however you want to put it). But, here's are questions for you, Dennis, that I believe you overlooked in your review. How compatible are the Festool hoses and fittings with the standard hoses and fittings commonly available at the borgs? In other words, do they fit well with the 1.25" and 2.5" everybody has been using for years on their ShopVacs, or do you need adapters from Festool? I have 2 Festool sanders (the Deltex and the Rotex), and I'm very disappointed in the proprietary fitting on them. Sure, there's an "adapter grommet" available from Festool (which I have), but it doesn't stay on well, nor is ITS outlet very compatible with the common English sizes.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Festool stuff is well-made, but they had to make a U.S. version to begin with (120V), so they may as well have made it to work with commonly available accessories as well. I certainly think it would help their U.S. marketability. It's tough enough to spend $400+ on a sander, but to have to spend another $400 on a vac to use 1/2 of its strong points (the dust collection in the tool) to their full capability is patently ridiculous. I'd sure like to see the static pressure/cfm numbers on a $100 ShopVac with 6' of 2.5" hose to see how they really compare with a Festool vac and its 27mm(not the 1" they claim--1"=25.4mm last time I checked) hose. Sure, noise is a factor, but I don't find my recently purchased ShopVac to be all that loud, and if I'm using it for any length of time (like with a noisy Rotex--they're right-angle after all), I wear ear muffs anyway.

After all, how many of you would buy a router that did not have 1/4" and 1/2" bit capability?

Ok, this got a little long, so I'm not going to duck, I've got time to run by the time you read this. :D

Gee Jason, why don't you tell us what you really think. :D

I owned a Sears 16 gal shop vac for years. I finally bit the bullet and bought the Festool dust extractor. Pricey? You bet! Work well? You bet! I had to make adapters for all my dust generating tools and it was worth the effort.

What do I like about it? It won't tip over. The hose is smaller in diameter, longer and easier to use. It's quieter. It can be turned on [and off] by the tool attached to it. Are these "features" worth the additional money? I think so. I solved some irritating problems and that is always worth more money [to me].

[Jason Roehl]

Jason,

...I bought a Festool hose that fits right into my Craftsman and Fein. ...

BTW, that particular hose fits my PC sanders and DW biscuit joiner fantastically. Thus allowing me to throw away my kludged together adaptors. So, I consider the Festool hose more "universal" than the ones that came with the other two.

Jay

Not entirely my point, Jay. When the Festool hose gets munched (it happens) for whatever reason...how soon before you're back up and running? You'd have to order it from a sales rep--it's not in any stores that I've seen. Does a standard 2.5" or 1.25" hose work in the Festool vac? I'm glad to hear that the Festool hose fits commonly used tools in the States, though (+1 for Festool on that account).

The reason I keep bringing up the 2.5" hose thing is that my ShopVac is a whole different animal when used with that hose versus a 1.25". Sure, for sanding, it's good to have 1.25" hose for the flexibility, but in that case, I put a 2.5" hose on the vac first--it just seems to work better that way for some reason--6' of 2.5" + 6' of 1.25" seems to be better than 6' of 1.25".

On another note, how often do you have to talk to someone while using a vacuum??!!?? :D

[Jason Roehl]

Gee Jason, why don't you tell us what you really think. :D

I owned a Sears 16 gal shop vac for years.

As have many woodworkers/homeowners. I junked a Sears vac that would now be about 8 years old. It was a screamer compared to my 2(?) year old ShopVac. What I'm saying is that many folks have the 10-30 year old shop vacuums that were as noisy as a jet engine. They're much better now.



What do I like about it? It won't tip over. The hose is smaller in diameter, longer and easier to use. It's quieter. It can be turned on [and off] by the tool attached to it. Are these "features" worth the additional money? I think so. I solved some irritating problems and that is always worth more money [to me].

Many of the newer designs are tip-resistant, though there is still room for improvement on the smaller models. My big one just won't tip. There's a "relay box" available from Sears for $20 that allows the tool to turn on your vac. It has the capability to power on 2 accessories from one tool, and the delayed shut-off is longer than the 1 second Dennis mentioned the Festool has (don't recall what it is, though--3 seconds, I think). The smaller hose I'm positive is more restrictive. If you've kept up at all on Bill Pentz's work, you'll recall that you need airflow for the finest dust--smaller hoses restrict airflow, so you should minimize them in whatever setup you use. A short length of small-diameter hose off the tool is good as a "whip" for easier handling of the tool, but then you should have larger hose to the vac for better flow.

Like I said, I'm not here to just dog Festool. I just wanted to see some discussion on all aspects of their tools and their use. They've certainly gotten plenty of positive press (and almost no negatives--when was the last time you used an absolutely perfect tool?) in these forums, but for those on limited budgets, I don't believe an all-green-and-midnight-blue shop is the right thing to acquire. I'm just not convinced a $400 Festool vac is $250 better than a $150 ($100 + some mods) ShopVac.

Every tool has drawbacks. I just want to make sure we flesh them out so that we can all make well-informed decisions if we so choose. I often feel that someone with a new tool in hand is a poor reviewer (sorry, Dennis), because we all get that giddy, "little kid at Christmas" feeling when we get a new tool. I've had my Festool sanders now for about 7 months and have had time to put them through their paces in a contractor setting, so I can be a little more objective. I certainly didn't see as many of the drawbacks at first that I do now. That's how I really feel. :D

[Byron Trantham]

That's how I really feel. :D

Good man Jason. :D I agree with you on almost all counts. Heck what it boils down to is priorities. Where do you want to put your money? My shop has evolved over 8-10 years. I buy a tool and either love it or hate it. If I hate it, I start shopping and wait until it dies so I can replace it with something that works better. If I am lucky, I figure out what I want in the replacement and am willing to spend extra money to "get what works [for me]." Let's face it, a shop vac is a minor tool in the process of doing woodworking and $400 could buy a tool that is more important to the process.

Oh, and yea, I don't believe there is a perfect tool either! :D :D

[Dennis Peacock]

But Jason....I wasn't reviewing how Festool stuff hooks up to other tools. Just the vac and it's own accessories.

However, my shop-vac brand hoses do connect to the vac nicely.

On another note...I didn't purchase this vac and it's not mine. I own a $59 Shop-Vac Quiet Vac that I use a Festool hose on to connect to my sanders. Besides that...I don't get "giddy" unless it's a BIG IRON purchase. :D

You also make some very good points and point out some very good reality checks. Thanks for adding your comments, points and ideas.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi Jason,

I've read your posts a couple of times but still don't really understand your problem. You are definitely not to first one who complains about the lack of compatibility on tools. I read similar threads on other forums (also German forums) where people also complaint about other brands.
A common subject seem to be guide rails and fences, for example. You can find posts like this from time to time:
I have a Metabo circular saw + guide rail and want to get a Bosch router. Why can't I use the Metabo rail along with the Bosch router?
Or:
I own an Elu router and would like to use it with a Festool dovetail jig. Why is this impossible?

I agree that it would be nice if all stuff were interchangeable. And wouldn't it be great if all batteries of cordless drills would be compatible?
Hey, I could use a Festool drill, a Bosch jigsaw, a Makita planer, a Hilti rotary hammer drill, a Dewalt circular saw with the same battery.
Would be cool, wouldn't it?
But actually this is far away from reality and a general problem, nothing specific to a certain brand. But while nobody would request compatibility among cordless tools we complain about guide rails, fences, jigs, suction hoses and vac accessories.


Don't get me wrong, I think the Festool stuff is well-made, but they had to make a U.S. version to begin with (120V), so they may as well have made it to work with commonly available accessories as well. I certainly think it would help their U.S. marketability. It's tough enough to spend $400+ on a sander, but to have to spend another $400 on a vac to use 1/2 of its strong points (the dust collection in the tool) to their full capability is patently ridiculous.

IMO you are talking about two completely different things.
As far as I know, 120 V is not the common but the official, standard voltage in the US (along with 220 V I think). A certain dia on suction hoses might be common but not binding.
It's fine if there are accessories which fit all different brands of power tools. But personally I deny that this is true. I experienced that some brands even require adapters within their own tool line.
There's certainly room for improvement but honestly I can say that Festool has one of the best (the best?) dust collection systems available.


Don't get me wrong, I don't say that Festool vacs are perfect. There are certainly other great vacs, too, I'm thinking of the Wap Alto Attix line, for example. And everyone has to decide if he can and wants to justify the cost for a Festool vac. Some people can and want to afford it, others don't. Festools (as other tools) are not made for everybody. Some want to appreciate their features and finally convince themselves to spend lots of money. Others forgo those features and spend their money on other things.
IMO there's nothing wrong with this choice and I can absolutely understand those arguments.

But blaming one brand for being not compatible to another doesn't seem valid to me.

Regards,

Christian

[Steven Wilson]

The reason I keep bringing up the 2.5" hose thing is that my ShopVac is a whole different animal when used with that hose versus a 1.25". Sure, for sanding, it's good to have 1.25" hose for the flexibility, but in that case, I put a 2.5" hose on the vac first--it just seems to work better that way for some reason--6' of 2.5" + 6' of 1.25" seems to be better than 6' of 1.25".
There are three hoses that you can buy for the Festool vac, 27mm, 36mm, and 50mm; the standard is 27mm and is just fine for collecting dust. For sweeping up chips the standard hose is rather useless and the 36mm or 50mm hoses are more appropriate. I picked up a cleaning kit with my vac and it came with a 36mm hose which is pretty decent for picking up stuff off of the floor. If you're real AR then you can pick up a Festool rotating adapter (about $10) that is the interface between the Festool vac and a hose. Cut the fitting off of the hose you like best and install the Festool end piece and you'll be sitting peachy with a ShopVac brand hose on a Festool vac.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim, the plug on the end of the vac is a properly terminated 20A, US style plug. The electrics are designed to support the vac and an attached tool that combined draws more than 15amps, hence the requirement for a 20A 110V plug. In my shop the 110V circuits are 20A and so are the recepticals. When I use the vact in the house the pigtail is a great reminder not to load up the 15A circuits with too much current draw. I first became aware of the 20A 110V plug with some studio recording equipment I purchased a few years back.
Steve,

I had a problem where the SWMBO was using the 150/5 and the vacuum (CT11e) off a 15 A breaker and she kept tripping it every so often.

Here are the NEMA names for some recepticles, all 2-pole 3-wire grounding, straight blade, United States:

5-15 R is 120 V/ 15 A
5-20R is 120 V/ 20 A
6-15R is 240 V/ 15 A

6-20R is a 240 V/ 20 A and looks similar to the 5-20R only the left blade is horizontal instead of vertical.

[JayStPeter]

Not entirely my point, Jay. When the Festool hose gets munched (it happens) for whatever reason...how soon before you're back up and running? You'd have to order it from a sales rep--it's not in any stores that I've seen. Does a standard 2.5" or 1.25" hose work in the Festool vac? I'm glad to hear that the Festool hose fits commonly used tools in the States, though (+1 for Festool on that account).


I think if your Festool hose got munched, you can go to HD and buy a hose to get by. It won't be an ideal fit to other Festool tools, but some adapters and tape will work for the few days it takes to get a new Festool hose.

The last bit of Festool stuff I ordered arrived pretty quickly (3 or 4 days).

I think the biggest negative to me is the use of bags. Knowing me, I'd run myself out pretty often. Definitely a problem I do/will have with sanding disks. But, it's a mixed bag so to speak, as it should make the process of emptying the vac much cleaner (and able to be done indoors).

Jay

[Bruce Page]

Great review Dennis.
I don’t think that I have ever read a bad word on the Festool line. So far, I have been able to resist all temptations…I’m afraid that just looking at another line of power tools would get me turned into roadkill. :eek:

[John Miliunas]

'Ya know, every time a lengthy Festool thread comes along, somehow, some way, the $$$ issue comes along. Understandable, but it always reminds me of a story my Dad told me a very long time ago. You see, he was born back in the "Old Country" and they were a pretty large family. They were under Communist regime at the time and his father had passed on when my Dad was only 11. He remembers going to the closest thing they had, which resembled a store. They were looking for some new shoes for him. My Dad knew his Mom didn't have a lot of money, so he went directly to the area where they had placed the cheaper shoes and "seconds" or "rejects". He called his Mom over to show her and she said, "Dear, we can't afford those." My Dad didn't understand this, as she continued to look (and ultimately buy) some pretty expensive shoes for him. :confused:

It took him a number of years to figure it out, just as it did me. Seems that many of us (myself included) can "afford" to buy a piece of equipment today, because we simply can't justify the high price of an alternate tool. Then next year, we again can only "afford" to buy that same piece of equipment. :confused: OK, maybe it's not every year, but if you do have to replace it in a relatively short period of time or, maybe you're not happy with it and simply want to upgrade, the "afford" part of the original "formula" is no longer valid. :)

Is a $400.00 dollar cordless drill for everyone? Heck no! On the other hand, if you're looking for a quality cordless, this fits the bill. If you also need a right-angle drill, again, the Fes fits the bill. Between these two higher quality separates of mainstream OEM's, you've probably got the bulk of the cost covered for the Fes. Add in eccentric chuck and now you've got something which I don't believe even exists as a separate unit! Going to a job site? You now have virtually 3 drills in one compact container! And, with a 15 min. recharge cycle and two batteries, you're pretty much guaranteed no down time! :)

Yeah, only one example, but I see similar "savings" with much of the Festool lineup. The vac, which Dennis is testing, has a number of similar comparisons when you really start going back and forth between other OEM's and what they actually have to offer. So, if my screamin' C-man dies tomorrow, I can't afford to replace it with another one! :cool:

[Greg Mann]

'Ya know, every time a lengthy Festool thread comes along, somehow, some way, the $$$ issue comes along. Understandable, but it always reminds me of a story my Dad told me a very long time ago. You see, he was born back in the "Old Country" and they were a pretty large family. They were under Communist regime at the time and his father had passed on when me Dad was only 11. He remembers going to the closest thing they had, which resembled a store. They were looking for some new shoes for him. My Dad knew his Mom didn't have a lot of money, so he went directly to the area where they had placed the cheaper shoes and "seconds" or "rejects". He called his Mom over to show her and she said, "Dear, we can't afford those." My Dad didn't understand this, as she continued to look (and ultimately buy) some pretty expensive shoes for him. :confused:

It took him a number of years to figure it out, just as it did me. Seems that many of us (myself included) can "afford" to buy a piece of equipment today, because we simply can't justify the high price of an alternate tool. Then next year, we again can only "afford" to buy that same piece of equipment. :confused: OK, maybe it's not every year, but if you do have to replace it in a relatively short period of time or, maybe you're not happy with it and simply want to upgrade, the "afford" part of the original "formula" is no longer valid. :)

Is a $400.00 dollar cordless drill for everyone? Heck no! On the other hand, if you're looking for a quality cordless, this fits the bill. If you also need a right-angle drill, again, the Fes fits the bill. Between these two higher quality separates of mainstream OEM's, you've probably got the bulk of the cost covered for the Fes. Add in eccentric chuck and now you've got something which I don't believe even exists as a separate unit! Going to a job site? You now have virtually 3 drills in one compact container! And, with a 15 min. recharge cycle and two batteries, you're pretty much guaranteed no down time! :)

Yeah, only one example, but I see similar "savings" with much of the Festool lineup. The vac, which Dennis is testing, has a number of similar comparisons when you really start going back and forth between other OEM's and what they actually have to offer. So, if my screamin' C-man dies tomorrow, I can't afford to replace it with another one! :cool:

Well put, John. Not everyone will buy a Lexus (insert alternate favorite) but we typically discount anyone trying to draw a comparison between that and a Yugo or even a Corolla for that matter. We automatically understand it is an invalid comparison, even though they all get you down the road (well maybe not the Yugo).

To understand the Festool, one also needs to understand the Euro market, where vacs used commercially require sensors to determine, through flow monitoring, when they are losing effectiveness; something that takes a level of sophistication that would preclude the use of any US market machines. The Festools we see are actually simplified versions of those machines; all the design and engineering are there that is necessary to accomplish what the Euros mandate but it is no longer monitored, simply because they understand we do not value that capability and will be unwilling to pay for it. The machine will still perform at the same high level because it has a superior design.

It would not be consistent with Festool's philosophy to make a vacuum to compete with the $50 machines. You can't do that and solve the performance issues they feel are important. In the end, it is just like all other tools/solutions. If you agree certain performance issues are important, then you don't mind paying for them. If you don't value that performance level then they are not your guy.

Regards,

Greg

P.S. IIRC, John's original post regarding suction strength alluded to the fact that too much suction causes the sander to stick too tightly to the work, thus increasing the vibration transmitted to the user. This is, I believe, the best reason to dial down the power when sanding. Just use enough to effectively suck up the dust and you will make life easier for the sander, the vac, and yourself. That is, IMHO, a great feature.

[Jason Roehl]

Christian, just based on what I read on the Festool website, I was concerned that the Festool hoses and accessories were entirely proprietary and not compatible with anything around. I think in this case it's different from the Metabo guide rail/Bosch router combo you mention. Pretty much all the locally available shop vacuums (I'm guessing this is true across the U.S., but I haven't been in all borgs) and their accessories are compatible within either the 1.25" or 2.5" domains. In other words, if I go buy a ShopVac brand vac with a 2.5" outlet, at any time if I need a particular hose or accessory for it, I could run to Sears and get a Craftsman 2.5" hose or accessory. Insert whatever brands you like for the ShopVac and Craftsman (those are two of the biggest sellers, I believe). I was just concerned because of the dimensions listed online (22mm, 27mm, etc.) for Festool, that they weren't playing the same game. Others have answered that question that Festool accessories are indeed compatible without a Rube Goldberg string of adapters.

As for the remark about the 120V/U.S. design, I was pointing out that where you are in Europe, 220V is the standard, no? So my though is that the U.S. market would get a different design from Festool anyway, why not tailor it a little more closely to the U.S. market? After all, Japanese automakers don't sell us very many right-hand drive cars (only in very rare exceptions), though that's the standard on their islands. In other words, they could have made the dust port on the tools themselves compatible with commonly available hoses in the U.S., without the need for their proprietary grommet.

Dennis, I know you were reviewing "just the vac" and its accessories, but I was trying to flesh out "value" and how it would commonly be used in a shop or with a pro (I would assume these are the bulk of the market Festool is targeting). I think these are both important considerations in the review of a tool, otherwise someone may buy based on a positive review that doesn't really offer applicability to real-world use, but be sorely disappointed when they find they can't hook it up to anything without a gazillion different adapters, because no real "as-it-would-be-used" test was performed.

John, you sound like you're saying "you get what you pay for." I've heard that a million times, and I'm not convinced it's universally true (I can't discuss everywhere it's not true, because we don't do politics or public education here :D ) In the end, the Festool is a motor, canister, bag and filter, much like a ShopVac. Perhaps German engineering has tightened the tolerances, and delivered a longer-lasting motor, but the question remains whether that is worth the 300% extra. We've certainly heard many folks talk about getting 10, 15, even 20 years out of their old Craftsmans, so by the time 40 years rolls around, how many Festools will have been worn out (or 70 years in the case of Dennis' $59 ShopVac, mine was $100, but I'll bet it's a little bigger).

My, I have stirred quite the pot on this one..."Hey, guys, check out that SawMill Creek--those guys get passionate about their SHOP VACUUMS there!!" :D I just always get concerned when I read a review that is real heavy on first impressions and positives, has very few negatives, and doesn't compare the item quantitatively to what else is available (for perspective purposes).

[Jack Hogoboom]

Not to stick my neck out (for fear of getting my head chopped off), but there are a few other considerations that are relevant to the discussion. First, the Festool has features (such as the auto-start, auto-stop feature) that simply aren't available on your basic Shop Vac. A Porter-Cable vacuum with similar features costs close to $300 (if memory serves). Further, a Fein vacuum, which is also manufactured in Europe, is priced well above that level. That feature either is or isn't important, but clearly adds to the cost. Second, and perhaps more important, you need to consider the effect the weak dollar has had on prices of imported goods (including tools). A few years ago when I was in France, the Dollar to Euro exchange rate was $.83 to E1.00. Now I think it is around $1.21 to E1.00. Combined with shipping costs, that means that a European manufactured tool is going to cost approximately 30% more than it would have a few years ago (assuming prices tracked the exchange rates). I'll bet our Austrian friend Christian can buy Festools in Austria far cheaper than we can here. So it's not just a premium tool, we're also the victim of changing exchange rates.

I think Jason raises some valid points and shouldn't be pillloried for asking some pretty pertinent questions. I for one would want to be able to connect my vacuum to all of my handheld tools without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

Just my $0.02.

Jack

[Greg Mann]

I'll bet our Austrian friend Christian can buy Festools in Austria far cheaper than we can here. So it's not just a premium tool, we're also the victim of changing exchange rates.

I think Jason raises some valid points and shouldn't be pillloried for asking some pretty pertinent questions. I for one would want to be able to connect my vacuum to all of my handheld tools without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

Just my $0.02.

Jack
I believe Christian feels we have a better pricing structure, even though we logically should not. Care to comment, Chris?

Adapting hoses to tools is a constant complaint. I think Festool has at least done a pretty good job of designing their vac to work with their tools. It seems to the casual observer that most everyone else,up to the present, has treated vac connections as an afterthought. There are no standards, even within a given brand, so I think expecting someone from across the pond to be able to solve the universality of hook-ups challenge is a reach, especially when no one else has done it.

Jason, The Festool hoses are pretty well-made, as well as being available in 3 sizes. It should take alot to damage one beyond the point where it couldn't be duct-taped for a week or so. The 27mm works well with the ROS's because it is lighter and provides enough draw for that type of work. Less tiring; who want to drag a 2.5 inch hose back and forth while finsh sanding? The power planer will choke that hose but works well with the next larger size, but is still not too restrictive. I don't have the 50mm hose so I cannot comment on that. Perhaps Dennis can investigate any benefits in 'optimizing' the hose size to specific applications. BTW, I don't believe Dennis has mentioned the anti-static feature yet, another unique feature.

$.02 more:)

Greg

[Dennis Peacock]

OK....

The hose is metal wire wrapped for anti-static provisions.

My standard shop-vac hoses will connect to the dust extractor without a single adapter.

Adjusting the speed of the suction while connnected to a sander does need to be turned down to prevent the sander from "sticking".

To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here. A review is one persons view of a tool and how well or pitiful it works. I honestly tried to pick these tools to pieces by being "super picky" about every little aspect that could possibly be covered by someone that isn't getting paid to do this, by someone that has to do this at their own time and expense. I always end a review that what can I find "wrong" with this tool. It is well thought out and non-attacking for the forum members as well as the vendor of the tools. If a review can't be done without it becoming a long thread of bickering.....This case is now considered....Closed.

[John Miliunas]

To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here. A review is one persons view of a tool and how well or pitiful it works. I honestly tried to pick these tools to pieces by being "super picky" about every little aspect that could possibly be covered by someone that isn't getting paid to do this, by someone that has to do this at their own time and expense. I always end a review that what can I find "wrong" with this tool. It is well thought out and non-attacking for the forum members as well as the vendor of the tools. If a review can't be done without it becoming a long thread of bickering.....This case is now considered....Closed.

Dennis, I still stand behind my original comments and feel as though you've done an excellent job with the review, pictures and write-up! Though I am saddened by the fact that you do not want to do anymore reviews, I don't blame you! :( As I see it, you offered up an *OBJECTIVE* review of the product, really no different than reviews on many other sites, magazines or other media. Yes, I am a Festool owner. No, I do not own one of their vacs. Did I find your review helpful in helping me get a better "feel" for the vac? You bet! As for a few of the "other" posts, I don't understand it. When people post gloats AND reviews on a new MM or Laguna or Powermatic this or that, the same doesn't happen, though a LOT more $$ is involved. When a Ford owner (Steve C. :D) clearly states his allegiance to that company, we don't have another 30 Chevy guys blowing him to pieces for it! I just don't get it. :confused: Anyhow, thanks much for your review (this and past ones) and, I for one, will miss them. :( :cool:

[Carole Valentine]

Dennis,
What is the capacity of those vacs? They look small in the pics I have seen. If there is one thing I hate it is emptying my vac, so the more it holds and the less often I have to empty it, the better.

[Jack Hogoboom]

Dennis,

I don't think you should give up. Your review provided a lot of useful information to those of us who haven't gotten the chance to use these tools and to evaluate them. :( I think the "discussion" that has resulted has had nothing to do with your review and a lot to do with whether people think the features you highlighted are worth the premium price. I don't think anyone is taking issue with your thoughts and comments. I certainly don't. Jim Becker did the same thing a week or so ago. We need you guys in there showing us what's out there. Don't quit!!!

Jack

[Frank Pellow]

OK....
...
To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here.
...


I am sorry that you feel that way Dennis. :( The review was good :) and I believe that the follow-up just indicates that people are interested in the topic. No follow-up would have indicated no interest. I have re-read the follow-up commnets, including those contributed by you, and I believe that they enhance your initial review (they certainly do not appear to be bickering to me).

[John Miliunas]

Dennis,
What is the capacity of those vacs? They look small in the pics I have seen. If there is one thing I hate it is emptying my vac, so the more it holds and the less often I have to empty it, the better.

Carole, I note that Dennis is not currently "on-line", so I thought I'd jump in with this: You can find all the specs on all three Festool vacs at:
http://festool.safeshopper.com/421/cat421.htm?293

I agree: I truly HATE emptying vacs and dust collector units! :mad: :cool:

[Scott Coffelt]

I've got the 150/3 and I have it hooked to my mini-fein. I bought the adapter from Fein and it works just fine. Would I love to have the Festool vac over the Fein vac? Sure, but it was about $100 difference. I've not used them side by side, so there is no way I could tell the difference. I do have the Ridgid vac and it is so much louder and I hate it and find myself using the Fein more and more. They all do the same thing, but in some cases better and also quieter. It comes down to $$$'s vs. value.

It's the same argument for delta vs griszzly vs. jet, etc.

Now as far a real gripe on fit, try finding a fitting to work directly with the Delta twin laser miter.... their suppose to be a USA company and can't figure out that people want dust collection. Point is, at least with the various vacs you can find (usually) a fitting or hose to match with most things (delta CMS excluded). As far as performance and noise level, it's a trade off to $$$$'s.

[Dennis Peacock]

It all boils down to this:

If Festool "tools" were the same price or a "little bit" more than the common BB tools, then nobody says a thing. You up the price considerably, and the world flies apart.

I did my best to pick this tool apart. But when you find a good tool and it surprises you that you "have to look really hard" to find anything wrong with it? I would say that THAT my friend is an excellent tool.

[JayStPeter]

I am sorry that you feel that way Dennis. :( The review was good :) and I believe that the follow-up just indicates that people are interested in the topic. No follow-up would have indicated no interest. I have re-read the follow-up commnets, including those contributed by you, and I believe that they enhance your initial review (they certainly do not appear to be bickering to me).

I agree with Frank. Nice review and an active followup mean you were indeed doing a service to the readers.

Jay

[JayStPeter]

It all boils down to this:

If Festool "tools" were the same price or a "little bit" more than the common BB tools, then nobody says a thing. You up the price considerably, and the world flies apart.

I did my best to pick this tool apart. But when you find a good tool and it surprises you that you "have to look really hard" to find anything wrong with it? I would say that THAT my friend is an excellent tool.

Agreed. The other thing I can say about my Festool experience so far (the ATF55) is that the more I use it, the more I like it. I think Jasons earlier comment about being "giddy" about the new tool didn't ring true with me. I wasn't totally sold on it early on, but now I am.

Jay

[Greg Mann]

Dennis,

Please don't feel that your efforts are unappreciated. I was very interested to see if your experiences and conclusions coincided with my own. They did, which is reassuring, since you have much more overall WWing experience than I do.

John has identified the inevitable common denominator with all Festool discussions: Price. What your review addresses is value and that is a different animal. It is up to the rest of us to determine the level to which we value various performance differences. Your review and the subsequent discussions, even with the tangents they take, help to clarify choices for all of us. Thanks for the efforts.
Greg

[Dennis Peacock]

Agreed. The other thing I can say about my Festool experience so far (the ATF55) is that the more I use it, the more I like it. I think Jasons earlier comment about being "giddy" about the new tool didn't ring true with me. I wasn't totally sold on it early on, but now I am.

Jay

I am reviewing the ATF55 now.....I actually have it ready to post....I'm just not so sure I want to any more. I don't like SMC having fires to stomp out. :rolleyes:

[John Miliunas]

I am reviewing the ATF55 now.....I actually have it ready to post....I'm just not so sure I want to any more. I don't like SMC having fires to stomp out. :rolleyes:

Dennis, if you've gone through all the work of doing already, I would most certainly love to see/read it. As for the "fires", I think there are enough of us out here to cover your back! :) :cool:

[Steve Clardy]

Dennis, I still stand behind my original comments and feel as though you've done an excellent job with the review, pictures and write-up! Though I am saddened by the fact that you do not want to do anymore reviews, I don't blame you! :( As I see it, you offered up an *OBJECTIVE* review of the product, really no different than reviews on many other sites, magazines or other media. Yes, I am a Festool owner. No, I do not own one of their vacs. Did I find your review helpful in helping me get a better "feel" for the vac? You bet! As for a few of the "other" posts, I don't understand it. When people post gloats AND reviews on a new MM or Laguna or Powermatic this or that, the same doesn't happen, though a LOT more $$ is involved. When a Ford owner (Steve C. :D) clearly states his allegiance to that company, we don't have another 30 Chevy guys blowing him to pieces for it! I just don't get it. :confused: Anyhow, thanks much for your review (this and past ones) and, I for one, will miss them. :( :cool: Well I was just sitting back and reading all this and wasn't gonna post. But ol' John here caught my eye.:eek: Maybe I've been lucky to not have gotten flamed on my Ford Passion.:confused::confused:

Keep up the good work Dennis.:):)

Steve

[John Miliunas]

Well I was just sitting back and reading all this and wasn't gonna post. But ol' John here caught my eye.:eek: Maybe I've been lucky to not have gotten flamed on my Ford Passion.:confused::confused:

Keep up the good work Dennis.:):)

Steve


Hey Steve....And I'm not even a Ford fan! :) BUT, here's one that a real Ford fanatic I know told me. You know how they have all those acronyms for FORD, right? Well, what does FORD spelled backwards stand for?! Driver Returns On Foot! :D Yes, very seriously, this was told to me by a mechanic friend of mine who doesn't even know how to spell GM!!! :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

Dennis,

This is a discussion. Clearly it is your choice to post or not but don't take the length of the thread or what you view as bickering as what everyone else thinks. Threads happen...they take a life of their own...that is the freedom of the thread and the people who particiapte in it. In general, we are all pretty well-behaved I think you'll agree.

Personally, I have found it a great discussion and one always needs a devil's advocate to make sure the full round is discussed. We have a lot of people on here and after all, this is a forum...discussions happen. Some are passionate about things. Money is always a big factor and it will naturally come up.

Keep posting, my friend, and don't take things personally and grow a thick skin...it is needed in general on discussion boards where anyone, anywhere, with a crappy hook-up and a crappy computer can bascially say what the want, when the want, and suffer little if any consequences.

Now post that darn saw review or I'm coming out there to slap you around!! :D

[Jack Hogoboom]

Dennis,

Please post your review of the ATF55. I'd really like to hear what you have to say about it.

Jack

[Dennis Peacock]

I will post it after I get back from the Dallas BBQ. BUT only because several are requesting it.

[Frank Pellow]

I am reviewing the ATF55 now.....I actually have it ready to post....I'm just not so sure I want to any more. I don't like SMC having fires to stomp out. :rolleyes:

Dennis, I have been looking forward to your perspective on the Festool Circular Saw. Please post it.

[Steve Clardy]

Hey Steve....And I'm not even a Ford fan! :) BUT, here's one that a real Ford fanatic I know told me. You know how they have all those acronyms for FORD, right? Well, what does FORD spelled backwards stand for?! Driver Returns On Foot! :D Yes, very seriously, this was told to me by a mechanic friend of mine who doesn't even know how to spell GM!!! :cool:
LOL!!! Yes. That has happened to me. First time was a fuel pump. Second--two flats:eek: at the same time on a gravel road. [One spare:o].
Third--ran out of GAS!!:eek:

Steve:)

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, I have been looking forward to your perspective on the Festool Circular Saw. Please post it.

Frank,

As of right now....I do have some recommendations for Festool to consider as improvements to the ATF55 Saw that in my mind and use of the saw would make is safer, easier to handle as well as more accurate for non-90 degree cutting. More on this later.

[Frank Pellow]

Frank,

As of right now....I do have some recommendations for Festool to consider as improvements to the ATF55 Saw that in my mind and use of the saw would make is safer, easier to handle as well as more accurate for non-90 degree cutting. More on this later.

Great! Now I am looking forward to the review even more.

[Jim Becker]

Please post it. And be critical where it's appropriate..."improvement needed" is just as important as swooning over what was done right!

[Christian Aufreiter]

I believe Christian feels we have a better pricing structure, even though we logically should not. Care to comment, Chris?



Sorry for the delay, Greg, I've been busy this morning.
Yes, Festools are cheaper in the USA than here.
One important fact that must be considered is that we have to pay 20 % VAT in Austria (16 % in Germany).
A few examples:
Rotex RO 150 E-Plus:
Austria EUR 468 (with VAT), EUR 390 (without VAT), would be $ 590.57/492.30 at today's rate. In the USA the Rotex costs $ 395.
CT 22 vac:
Austria EUR 429.60 (with VAT), EUR 358 (without VAT), would be $ 542.11/451.76 at today's rate.
$ 385 is the price that you pay in the USA.
Another difference is that we hardly get those intro prices, promotional offers and special deals. I think Festool is aware of its important position on the European market so probably they don't need those specials in order to attract new customers.
As far as I remember Festool USA's pricing has been pretty stable during the past two years. I don't think that the Euro-USD story has affected it a lot yet.
Generally, power tools cost way more in Austria than in the US. Compared to other brands' pricing Festool's difference is acceptable.
My favourite example is the Dewalt DC980KA cordless drill which sells around $ 170 in the US. In Austria it costs EUR 357.6 (with VAT) and EUR 298 (without VAT), would be $ 451.51/376.25 at today’s rate.
While I’m definitely not enthused about this pricing it makes me buy better tools I think. If a Dewalt biscuit joiner already costs EUR 346.8 it not too hard to justify about EUR 440 for a Lamello.

Regards,

Christian

[Christian Aufreiter]

To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here. A review is one persons view of a tool and how well or pitiful it works. I honestly tried to pick these tools to pieces by being "super picky" about every little aspect that could possibly be covered by someone that isn't getting paid to do this, by someone that has to do this at their own time and expense. I always end a review that what can I find "wrong" with this tool. It is well thought out and non-attacking for the forum members as well as the vendor of the tools. If a review can't be done without it becoming a long thread of bickering.....This case is now considered....Closed.

Hi Dennis,

as I already stated I really like your review, not only because you seemed to like the Festool but because I had the impression that you did it thoroughly and carefully.
Many of us (including me) have been waiting for your review of the ATF because we think that you are one of those people who are capable of doing an objective job.
Thanks for all your input and commitment!

Regards,

Christian

[Jack Hogoboom]

Hey Christian,

Sounds like an arbitrage opportunity. Can you convert 120v into what you need in Austria? If so, make us a list and we'll buy the tools here and send them over there to you. $451 for a Dewalt drill sounds crazy enough to take all the fun out of being a woodworker in Europe. I can't believe the Festool prices are worse there than here. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Maybe if we send you enough tools, you can send us back a Mercedes-Benz.

Jack

[Jack Hogoboom]

Steve,

Not to jump on another out-of-control bandwagon, but I'm sure you've also heard the one about FORD standing for "Found On Road Dead". The other one I heard was "Ford makes the very best. Drive a mile and walk the rest."

Just funnin' you.

Jack

[Christian Aufreiter]

Christian, just based on what I read on the Festool website, I was concerned that the Festool hoses and accessories were entirely proprietary and not compatible with anything around. I think in this case it's different from the Metabo guide rail/Bosch router combo you mention. Pretty much all the locally available shop vacuums (I'm guessing this is true across the U.S., but I haven't been in all borgs) and their accessories are compatible within either the 1.25" or 2.5" domains. In other words, if I go buy a ShopVac brand vac with a 2.5" outlet, at any time if I need a particular hose or accessory for it, I could run to Sears and get a Craftsman 2.5" hose or accessory. Insert whatever brands you like for the ShopVac and Craftsman (those are two of the biggest sellers, I believe). I was just concerned because of the dimensions listed online (22mm, 27mm, etc.) for Festool, that they weren't playing the same game. Others have answered that question that Festool accessories are indeed compatible without a Rube Goldberg string of adapters.

As for the remark about the 120V/U.S. design, I was pointing out that where you are in Europe, 220V is the standard, no? So my though is that the U.S. market would get a different design from Festool anyway, why not tailor it a little more closely to the U.S. market? After all, Japanese automakers don't sell us very many right-hand drive cars (only in very rare exceptions), though that's the standard on their islands. In other words, they could have made the dust port on the tools themselves compatible with commonly available hoses in the U.S., without the need for their proprietary grommet.



Jason,

I can completely understand that you would appreciate more compatibility of Festool vacs with common US vac equipment. But IMO this aspect doesn’t affect whether a Festool vac is worth its money or not.
You might want to contact Festool on this one but I wonder if the Festool vacs were primarily designed as general purpose shop vacs or as dust extractor hooked up to power tools.
Anyway, the Festool vacs do an excellent job as shop vacs, yes, they might need (I haven’t tried to use other brands) Festool accessories.
The common US shop vacs are apparently not designed for usage combined with power tools, otherwise they’d provide the auto on/off feature, for example. Now some people might say that they can buy a MasterSlave device for a few bucks which does everything they want. Yep, it will work but would it be convenient for someone who does a lot of onsite work to carry this separate unit around with him?
Regarding dust extraction from power tools, can you hook up a Milwaukee circular saw, a PC sander, a Dewalt biscuit joiner and a Hitachi router to a PC shop vac without any problems (fitting) and additional accessories (adapters)?
I know that for example Bosch required adapters within its own line (Bosch vac + Bosch power tool).

As for our voltage, it was changed to 230 V years ago but this didn’t mean any differences in general usage at least I didn’t notice:-)

Festool could probably adapt their design to common US hoses, nozzles and other accessories but I guess that you miss one important point:
Festool has designed their hoses to fit Festool power tools (without any troubles and additional adapters) and I can’t imagine that the majority of Festool users would want to give up this advantage for the ability to use some basic accessories.
Regards,

Christian

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hey Christian,

Sounds like an arbitrage opportunity. Can you convert 120v into what you need in Austria? If so, make us a list and we'll buy the tools here and send them over there to you. $451 for a Dewalt drill sounds crazy enough to take all the fun out of being a woodworker in Europe. I can't believe the Festool prices are worse there than here. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Maybe if we send you enough tools, you can send us back a Mercedes-Benz.

Jack

Hi Jack,

those are some interesting suggestions. I don't know what is required to use 120 V tools here. We have 230 V/50 Hz, you have 120 V/60 Hz. Due to my lack of knowledge I don't know about the importance of the different Hertz ratings. A Voltage converter or whatever would be required might be an option in the shop but certainly not for mobile use.
Add costs for shipping and a certain percentage of customs and the great advantage might be gone, at least regarding Festools.
As for cordless tools, if the only difference between US and European tools is the charger importing them could be interesting.

Shipping a Benz wouldn't be a problem :D but make sure that it's really cheaper here. :)

Christian

[Jason Roehl]

I am reviewing the ATF55 now.....I actually have it ready to post....I'm just not so sure I want to any more. I don't like SMC having fires to stomp out. :rolleyes:

Hey, Dennis, I don't have any opinions on the ATF55...so go ahead and post the review. :D I thought we had a good discussion going there on the vacuums.

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

OH BOY Dennis..................you have Jason's blessings to post the next Festool Review. Now, isn't THAT special. I've seen enough here lately..............I'm outta here. I can be found at the woodworkers forums.............folks are decent to each other there.

[Paul Berendsohn]

whewwww... no offense Kevin but if this is a harsh thread, you oughta see some of the other forums ;)

Nice job Dennis... I'm struck by the similarities to my "old" (maybe 5 years) Porter Cable vac, even the cleaning mechanism sounds identical. Wonder if Festool made it for them. Heyyyyyyyy, that would make me a (gulp) Festool owner ;)

[Chris Padilla]

OH BOY Dennis..................you have Jason's blessings to post the next Festool Review. Now, isn't THAT special. I've seen enough here lately..............I'm outta here. I can be found at the woodworkers forums.............folks are decent to each other there.
Gee, Kevin, I hope this is tongue-in-cheek but I don't see any smilies....:(

[Frank Pellow]

Hi Jack,

those are some interesting suggestions. I don't know what is required to use 120 V tools here. We have 230 V/50 Hz, you have 120 V/60 Hz. Due to my lack of knowledge I don't know about the importance of the different Hertz ratings. A Voltage converter or whatever would be required might be an option in the shop but certainly not for mobile use.
Add costs for shipping and a certain percentage of customs and the great advantage might be gone, at least regarding Festools.
As for cordless tools, if the only difference between US and European tools is the charger importing them could be interesting.

Shipping a Benz wouldn't be a problem :D but make sure that it's really cheaper here. :)

Christian

When I lived in England, I purchased some transformers in order to be able to use the power tools (drill, jig saw, and sander) and other things (blender, food mixer, vacuum, hair drier, etc) that we took with us. Everything worked fine. As I recall, the transformers cost about 15 pounds each.

[Jason Roehl]

Hey, Dennis, here's the bottom line of what I was trying to get at throughout this thread: I had some perceptions about the Festool vac (some of them turned out to be wrong--hose compatibility and all--and eventually my perceptions were straightened out). I don't have a Festool vac on hand to test them out. You do. I apologize if I came across as having a burr under my saddle, but I really don't and that wasn't my intention. I just have a minor frustration with the sander as it relates to the dust extraction feature, which is somewhat related.

[Dennis Peacock]

Hey, Dennis, here's the bottom line of what I was trying to get at throughout this thread: I had some perceptions about the Festool vac (some of them turned out to be wrong--hose compatibility and all--and eventually my perceptions were straightened out). I don't have a Festool vac on hand to test them out. You do. I apologize if I came across as having a burr under my saddle, but I really don't and that wasn't my intention. I just have a minor frustration with the sander as it relates to the dust extraction feature, which is somewhat related.

Jason,

Thanks. What really set me off was:

"I often feel that someone with a new tool in hand is a poor reviewer (sorry, Dennis), because we all get that giddy, "little kid at Christmas" feeling when we get a new tool."

I got over "giddy" years ago. I have reviewed tools and taught people how to use various tools over the last several years and new tools are cool....but certainly not a vac and a saw.

In a ww forum....wording is EVERYTHING since we can't do true voice tone inflection by typing. Let's consider this case closed.

[Jason Roehl]

Ahhh...there we go, Dennis...now that you point it out, I see how it was taken. I suppose I could have worded that better. I didn't mean that YOU were necessarily "giddy," I meant that oftentimes a reviewer is excited to have a new tool in hand and can unknowingly overlook the negatives, and I approach reading a review with that (potential) bias in mind. Just think of it as defending your doctoral dissertation, Dennis--and you did quite well, along with the help of some others who chimed in.

[Jack Hogoboom]

Now that everything is again right with the world, can someone get Kevin to come back? I hope he was joking. Was he??????

[Dennis Peacock]

NO...I'm afraid he wasn't kidding.

[Ken Salisbury]

After re-reading this entire thread I feel obligated as the Moderator for this forum to comment on it's content.

First of all I would like to thank Dennis for the effort he put forward in reviewing this tool. I think he did a good job in his evaluation of a tool by a "first time" user of that tool. As Dennis has said: "I wasn't reviewing how Festool stuff hooks up to other tools. Just the vac and it's own accessories"



To be honest here guys. I don't feel that I can do any more tool reviews here

I hope this is not true Dennis. If it is I think I will consider coming to Arkansas and burning your shop down :D :D

Continuing on: These type of reviews will always have supporters of the reviewer's evaluation and dissenters as is apparent in this one. I believe most of the responses, and I emphasize most were beneficial to the discussion. However there were some responses which were inappropriate. There were also replies which were completely off topic to the subject of the thread.

Some of the posts in this thread clearly were in violation of the Terms of Service. To wit:

2. Disagreements, Flaming, and Personal or Professional Attacks
Disagreements are almost certain to occur. Members shall be respectful of dissenting opinions and refrain from name-calling, personal or professional attacks. Messages that contain critical content must provide all factual information pertinent to the problem and enough data to support any claims or complaints.

I will say again as I have in the past:

"Please, Lets all try to put our brain in gear before putting our keyboard in motion"

Membership and participation in the SMC forums in strictly a choice and is not mandated by some "higher being". I think the vast majority of our members are decent, considering and thoughtful people. Anyone who believes otherwise has the option of notifying the Administration that they would like to have their name removed from the membership.

I hope what has happened here does not deter anyone else from posting a tool review. I feel we can all learn from these reviews and the discussions that result from them. Keep the reviews coming.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

[John Miliunas]

Thanks, Ken! Very well stated. :) :cool:

[Frank Pellow]

Ken, thanks from me also.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Dennis, I hope you never stop posting your findings on tools here. I really enjoy reading a good review from someone who actually uses the tools. I see reviews in magazines, but I never know if they actually put the tool through the paces.

I realize how insane people can get over things like which tool is better. I never expected to see it here to the extent we have. I completely understand if you never do again, but your reviews will be sorely missed among the group.

We all get passionate about things we know and enjoy in life...heck I am a nut for cars, but you couldn't pry me into a new one. We all have our preferences and somehow it turns personal after awhile. I really like this site since it seems to be less prevalent here. I would sure hate it if a few people caused some of our most helpful posters to stop sharing their knowledge with us.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Hi Dennis.
In few days I' will send the EZ Smart for your review.
(with some new gadgets)
Please continue with your reviews.
I be proud to have a true woodworker like you to be the first reviewer.
Thanks.
YCF Dino