raised panel bit?

[Brian Knop]

Which to get, vertical or horizontal raised panel bit? I have a 3+ router in a router table. I have alway gotten around using a panel bit, but need one now.
Thanks Brian

[David Thompson 27577]

If your router table fence is tall enough, and you can think of a method of holding a panel flat to the fence while running that panel across the bit, then consider a vertical bit.

For me, it has always been easier to think of methods to hold the panel flat to the table, and use a horz bit. I use a couple of feather boards attached to the fence to keep the edge of the panel down on the table, and either my hands or a clamping miter guage to hold the rest of it down.
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[Lex Boegen]

Are you able to reduce the speed of your router? If not, then your only safe choice is the vertical bit.

[scott spencer]

I have both and find that it's easier to keep the panel steady with the horizontal panel raisers, and you've certainly got ample power to spin it. Lex brought up a good point about slowing the bit down.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I use a pair of Grippers to hold the panel flat on the table. They are great for the safety oriented folks. Since you can spin a flat bit, I'd use it, it's easier IMO.

No flames please. Use safety devices if you like, if you don't like them, don't use them.

[Brian Knop]

Yes I have used the router with a 45 locking miter bit at reduced speed.

[Jim Finn]

I use a horz. bit at slower speed in my 3+ hP router. works well for me making raised panels like this:

[Jim Rimmer]

Another vote for the horizontal bit at a reduced speed.

[Frank Drew]

And maybe don't try to hog off the entire cut in one pass per edge.

[scott vroom]

I'm getting ready to buy a router table but the safety issues raised above make me wonder if a shaper is a safer tool for raised panels?

[Lee Schierer]

You can also make raised panels on a TS (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~us71na/raisedpanel.html). I have instructions at my website.http://mysite.verizon.net/us71na/EC%20closed.jpg

[Michael MacDonald]

so the advice to reduce the speed for a horizontal bit is because the bit path is so much bigger in diameter? Doesn't it bite the same amount of wood as a vertical bit would? Why not a slow speed for a vertical bit too?

I was just about to do this with a hand-held PC691 router. I bought a horizontal bit... perhaps the wrong choice? I am also finding that I might have purchased a bit that was too large... I have a 3/4 inch thickness glue-up that I want to route. And I just looked at my 3.5 inch bit and it is about that thick... hmmm.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

You HAVE to use a router table with a horizontal bit. If you don't it will probably end up is some form of injury to you... Please be careful. The router table need not be complex. Many people get away with a piece of wood clamped to the table. I just routed a hole for my router plate in my table saw extension wing, and made a sacrificial fence for the stock fence. Works great, not a lot of cost. As I mentioned before, a pair of grippers adds a lot of safety factor. I got a router kick back, doing a raised panel, and probably saved myself a trip to the hospital. CHEAP investment IMO.

Yes, the reason you need to slow the bit down, is the tip speed of a 3" bit is really smoking along, as compared to a 3/4" bit's tip speed.

[Michael MacDonald]

I can knock something together to do this as a table, then... it seems to be that the vertical bit cannot be used with a handheld either because there is not enough surfact against which to rest the handheld router. I suppose I could clamp the panel it to the edge of the workbench and route one edge at a time. Perhaps I should just return the horizontal and get a vertical... I have a smaller router.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

Spent one afternoon building this horizontal table.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2699

Well worth the time.

Greg

[Peter Quinn]

I'm getting ready to buy a router table but the safety issues raised above make me wonder if a shaper is a safer tool for raised panels?

Safer? Not necessarily IMO, either can be safe with the proper setup or dangerous with the wrong set up. Both can make excellent panels. But easier? No question, a shaper with or with out power feed is much easier for raising panels. I prefer a power feed personally. And quicker? I'd estimate my shaper produces panels 10X faster than my router table on any run over 4 pieces. The setup takes a bit longer on the shaper, but once set its real fast.

As to running panel bits freehand, I have done this to add a profile to mantle and counter top edges that I could not pass through my shaper or router table due to size and weight. It is clearly against the advice of most manufacturers, and the safety police will cry foul (and should), but it can be done. However, I would not make this my first choice for most panel raising operations.

Michael, think twice about spinning a panel bit freehand for cabinet sized panels. That can get dicey. The reason for the reduced speed is a thing called "Tip speed", which I think may be described as the apparent speed of the tips of the router bit in inches per minute. The shaft may be moving at 15,000RPM for example, but as you move away from the center of the shaft the cutter is traveling farther per revolution, so its speed relative to the wood is greater. That is why shapers with bigger cutters move slower, or they would burn the heck out of the wood. Even though a shaper's arbor is turning slower its tip speed and cuts per inch are typically greater than a router resulting in a better cut generally. Make sense? As the circumference increases the tip speed increases and the RPM's must decrease to compensate and maintain the proper chip load. A vertical bit can run faster as its diameter is much smaller thus the tip speed hasn't greatly increased. Make sense?

Rod explains this much better.

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm getting ready to buy a router table but the safety issues raised above make me wonder if a shaper is a safer tool for raised panels?


Of course the shaper is safer, it's doing the one job it was designed for, making edge treatments on wood.

It has the correct cutter speed and cutting angle geometry to do the job properly, safely, and will far higher feed rates and better surface finish than is achieveable with any router bit.

It has large cast iron hoods and guards, and you can make custom hoods and guards for special operations.

It has starting pins and ring guards for template work (following a pattern with a bearing).

It can spin the large cutters necessary to cut large profiles.

It can run reverse spindle rotation for problems with grain or feed direction, or for when you want to flip the cutter over.

It has a big flat cast iron table (You won't find any "Help, my shaper table is sagging" threads).

You can use a power feeder on it for more safety and quality of cut improvements.

You can climb cut with a power feeder

There are an enormous number of cutters available and you mix and match by stacking.

You can get insert knife heads which have HSS knives for about $20 to $30 per pair, and produce a superior finish in solid wood.

You can get a tilting spindle and sliding table as well, which opens up new operations and profiles.

Oh, and they're quiet and have good dust collection and split fences.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. You can run a router bit in a shaper, if your shaper can achieve somewhere around 10,000 RPM.

A router bit in a shaper at 10,000 rpm works better than a router bit in a router at 10,000 rpm due to lack of vibration and deflection of spindle/fence/table etc.

I've run larger bits in my shaper with no issues, other than it's kind of like running a BMW bike on bald tires, you just don't get the shaper advantage using a router bit.

[Van Huskey]

To repeat whats been said larger router bits are NOT safe in a handheld router. In the paraphrased words of Charles Neil "if it looks to big, it is". A general rule of thumb is look at the size of the bits in one of those 30, 40 or 100 piece cheapo router bit sets, if a bit is larger than the largest one in those then it needs to be in a table. Any panal raising bit goes in a table period.

[Jim Rimmer]

I can knock something together to do this as a table, then... it seems to be that the vertical bit cannot be used with a handheld either because there is not enough surfact against which to rest the handheld router. I suppose I could clamp the panel it to the edge of the workbench and route one edge at a time. Perhaps I should just return the horizontal and get a vertical... I have a smaller router.
Michael, please use a table no matter which bit you have. The horizontal is safer just because of the way you have to handle the material. Just remeber that you are going to be spinning a pretty good chunk of metal at 10K rpm or higher and pushing a hardwood into it. Preplan for the worst case scenario and listen to the advice of guys on this site with more experience than I have.

I don't mean to be overbearing and maybe I'm reading your posts wrong but it just seems like you weren't considering some of the hazards you might encounter with this operation. Like all woodworking, it has its perils but it can be done safely. Again, I don't mean to overstep my bound here - I just don't want you to get hurt.

[Michael MacDonald]

Right.. I wasn't eager to balance a router on the edge of the bench as described.

Thanks for all the feedback. I am indeed planning now to create a router table for temporary use until I get a more permanent situation. I am still thinking that the 690 does not have speed control, so I may get a verical bit and mount the router on its side so the panel can be flat on a table. I think that could work. These bits cost ~$80, but definitely safety is a concern. Its a little scary what one can get oneself into if the right questions are not asked...

[Joe Spear]

[QUOTE=Michael MacDonald;1320922]so the advice to reduce the speed for a horizontal bit is because the bit path is so much bigger in diameter? Doesn't it bite the same amount of wood as a vertical bit would? Why not a slow speed for a vertical bit too?

You are right about needing to reduce the speed of a horizontal panel bit because it is so much bigger in diameter. It has to do with the speed of the outside edge of the bit. At a given rpm, the outside edge of a 3 1/2" bit is traveling at a much high linear speed than the outside edge of a 1" bit. That's why you slow down the rpm's.

A vertical panel bit may have a diameter of only 1" or 1 1/2", making its outside edge spin at a much lower linear speed than the horizontal bit at a given rpm. So you can crank up the rpm's for a vertical bit.

The vertical bit might bite off the same amount of wood as a horizontal bit, but you have to lower the rpm's of a large-diameter horizontal bit to achieve the same linear speed for its cutters that a smaller-diameter vertical bit's cutting edge hits the wood with at higher rpm's..