Defective Tool Threads

[Brad Patch]

Over the years I have read numerous threads concerning tools that did not meet their owners expectations. Most, if not all problems were subsequently corrected to the owners satisfaction. It seems to me that if you have a problem the first course of action would be to contact the seller and fully explain your concerns. If that fails then by all means post your experiences on this or other forums, but to do so without giving the seller a chance to correct the problem seems a little unfair.

I have no connection or affiliation with any manufacturer.

[Stephen Edwards]

Over the years I have read numerous threads concerning tools that did not meet their owners expectations. Most, if not all problems were subsequently corrected to the owners satisfaction. It seems to me that if you have a problem the first course of action would be to contact the seller and fully explain your concerns. If that fails then by all means post your experiences on this or other forums, but to do so without giving the seller a chance to correct the problem seems a little unfair.

I have no connection or affiliation with any manufacturer.

Agreed, 100%. The forums should be used as a last resort for correcting problems with tools and machines that arrive defective or don't meet the owner's expectations. IMO, it's irresponsible to use the forums without first giving the supplier the opportunity to correct the problem or to issue a refund.

Then, it's perfectly appropriate to post your experience on a public forum, good or bad.

[Neil Brooks]

My $0.02:

I'd rather have a good product than a good warranty, or than good customer service.

Quality should be designed in, not tested out (or left to the consumer to evaluate, and for customer service to address).

Airing one's grievances on a forum like this should never be a substitute for a professional and respectful call to the seller/manufacturer. With that, I couldn't agree more.

That said ... IMHO ... a product that was defective on arrival, even if the manufacturer/seller eventually fixed it ... doesn't earn a grade of A+.

We all know the frustration, delay, disappointment, stress, and headaches those episodes can cause.

I'd rather have all the information that I can possibly get about ... whose products are likely to work when I take them out of the package, and -- perhaps more importantly -- whose products have a higher likelihood of needing a 'customer service intervention' [often followed by a rather inconvenient delay, waiting on tech support or replacement parts, etc.] before they'll work properly.

YMMV.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

What the OP is trying to say is that if you have issues with a product, give the manufacturer a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue BEFORE you air it in public.

There is no product that hasn't had some issues. Period. All manufacturers have designed, manufactured and sold products that have had defects.

It's a matter of common coutesy.

[Neil Brooks]

Not trying to be contentious, here, but ... I guess my opinion differs.

Why does the chronology matter?

For example, I'm two-for-two with a big brand of power tools ... on having them arrive inoperable due to QC issues.

Though they DO make it right ... as right as right can be, after going through the hassles ... what's the harm in saying the machines were dead on arrival ... before I contact the company?

Again, it shouldn't be a substitute FOR contacting the company, but ... I'd rather get some sense of whose product is better, rather than whose customer service is better.

If you ask people to withhold posting until they've contacted the company, then ... I'm guessing we'll lose much of that information in the process.

No?

[Michael MacDonald]

seems like there is room to disagree in this topic. But if your intention is to post your experience after the company responds (and hopefully fix the problem), the why does it matter that you wait? Simply post that the initial quality problem existed, and then later keep the thread alive with updates on the experience with the vendor... and if they respond well, it might even motivate potential customers to get that product... I went to the web site for the clear vue cyclone after reading a post about how that company operates... wanted the "Mini CV06" (no luck because oneida legal action, though)... I think that any order is valid, as long as the posts are honest and complete...

[glenn bradley]

I appreciate someone reporting an initial problem. This gives all of us an insight as to the maker's QA and helps guide our purchasing decisions. It is very important for the OP to follow through with the results of the 'fix' or 'return' for the same reasons. What we should all be careful not to do is to rant about something due to brand loyalty or prejudice and then leave the matter open.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?


It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.

[Stephen Edwards]

I appreciate someone reporting an initial problem. This gives all of us an insight as to the maker's QA and helps guide our purchasing decisions. It is very important for the OP to follow through with the results of the 'fix' or 'return' for the same reasons. What we should all be careful not to do is to rant about something due to brand loyalty or prejudice and then leave the matter open.

I'm not suggesting that we not report our initial problems with a product. I'm simply suggesting that we wait until the company from whom we bought a product first be given an opportunity to make it right. Then, report the entire experience.

Unfortunately, a lot of people will leave the original rant open without later posting that the matter was resolved to their satisfaction.

Here's an example of how I dealt with a defective router plate from Rockler:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=102976

Though, when all was said and done, I did finally get a good router plate (good customer service), I also recommended, based on my experience, that folks not buy the original plate that I ordered.

Again, I want to hear about initial problems, even if they are resolved. What I don't like to hear/see is a rant about a product before the company has been given the opportunity to address the issue. IMHO, it is, as Ken said, a matter of common courtesy. But, that's just how I see it.

[Neil Brooks]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?

Thanks, Ken. I'm not used to ridiculous responses, but ... you give me an opportunity to take the moral high ground.

IF I made a mistake, and the company "stated publicly" that it was -- in fact -- my error, I would live with it. They, of course, would quickly cease to exist, as a business, though.

The ridiculous part is your characterization of "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent...."


It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.I see that others agree with me. What I don't see is anything that supports your characterization that it is "a matter of common courtesy."

I'd rather know who's shipping defective products (if I need to cite my examples, in order that you or others may understand that there was ZERO operator error and 100% quality control issues, I certainly will), in order to both set more realistic expectations, as a customer, and to ensure that the company understands that quality matters to its customers.

But ... you, sir, are the moderator. I'm just a former VP of a couple of national retail chains who -- among other responsibilities -- managed Operations, Customer Service, and Quality Control.

[Neil Brooks]

Again, I want to hear about initial problems, even if they are resolved. What I don't like to hear/see is a rant about a product before the company has been given the opportunity to address the issue. IMHO, it is, as Ken said, a matter of common courtesy. But, that's just how I see it.


I don't see it as an either/or proposition.

I'm also -- quite personally -- less interested in how the company resolved it (I presume few companies will go out of their way NOT to make it right) than whether or not something worked out of the box.

By week three [when the replacement part arrived], for example, I might have lost any interest in posting that my new 1/2HP benchtop mortiser had an incorrectly drilled base-plate that rendered the mortiser inaccurate without creating a jig ...

I think there's value in catching the issues, even if we're left to presume that there -- eventually -- was a resolution.

[Sean Nagle]

My opinion is that I'd like to hear about the problem. Often times a poster is actually probing other woodworkers simply to verify that they actually have a problem. They may be new to woodworking or new to a tool and need some reassurance.

[Mike Cruz]

OMG, I can't believe this thread turned into a peeing contest.

I don't care if you are the VP of the Universe or an unemployed gas attendant (sorry, no disrespect meant to gas attendants who are out of work), what you have is an opinion. State it and move on. If someone disagrees, that is their, you guessed it, opinion.

[Glen Butler]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?


It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.

I am not saying they don't exist, but I have yet to see a thread where someone posted a problem with a tool stating that the company is a bunch of idiots and grossly negligent. We come to this forum for guidance on handling a problem. Name calling is different matter entirely. If a company expressed publicly that I was the cause of the problem, fine, I can handle that. If they were to call me an idiot for doing so, then shame on them.

Common courtesy would be to post the followup, and indemnify the company. Furthermore situations like these help a companies postition. We see that they handled the problem quickly and courteously, and therefore we want to buy from them.

[Neil Brooks]

OMG, I can't believe this thread turned into a peeing contest.

I don't care if you are the VP of the Universe or an unemployed gas attendant (sorry, no disrespect meant to gas attendants who are out of work), what you have is an opinion. State it and move on. If someone disagrees, that is their, you guessed it, opinion.

Mike,

It matters.

It matters because I can effectively represent the company's position, here, having HAD those professional responsibilities in the past.

Nobody wants the immature rantings of an unchecked lunatic, invoking their company's name in a public forum.

Smart companies, however, DO want to know what's happening, and WILL respond to the subtle pressures of the marketplace that call for them improving their processes -- particularly when the pain of NOT doing so is decreased business.

One of the best things about the Internet is the shift toward a more level playing field. 20 years ago, it was virtually impossible for a consumer to make an informed decision regarding quality or value. The internet is changing that. If we LET it, it will result in better products and better value.

If we don't, then we tell the company that -- as long as you make it right for me ... eventually ... I'll be okay.

Is that really the best possible outcome??

No peeing contest, here, incidentally, but ... thanks.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

1. Being a Moderator doesn't make my opinion any more or less valuable, more right or more wrong than anyone elses opinion. I nor any Moderator has ever implied that. I'm sorry you feel intimidated by a Moderator resplying to your comments.

2. As someone who has worked in the front lines of customer service for 2 of the largest corporations in the world for 34 years , I find common courtesy to be a invaluable tool when dealing with customers.

3. I used the terms "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent" only to demonstrate that little information found on the internet neither correct,verifiable, and that airing comments publically isn't necessarily a good thing. Embarrassing someone, some company or their employees is not the best method to get a resolution to one's problems.

4. As a former VP of a large firm I am sure you realize that cutting QC helps reduce costs and expand market share. Every major company is doing it. If they didn't, most of the folks at this site couldn't afford the tools the use in pursuing this hobby.

[Rick Gooden]

A few years ago in the custom high end electronics installation arena there was a projector company that would consistently be rated the best (by the dealers). They had the highest failure rate of any company in the market, but had incredible customer service. The owner, Sam, would get on the phone with you and be extremely personable and do anything to resolve the problem. The industry absolutely loved Sam. After a while I quit dealing with Sam and went with a company that was never rated highly by the dealers, but the units came in, they worked, and consequently I made more money and had happier customers. I personally want to know about initial failures, poor workmanship, and poor quality control. I would rather not have to contact customer service. If I must deal with customer service, I have every right to expect them to "make it right" as quickly as they can.

[Neil Brooks]

Neal,

1. Being a Moderator doesn't make my opinion any more or less valuable, more right or more wrong than anyone elses opinion. I nor any Moderator has ever implied that. I'm sorry you feel intimidated by a Moderator resplying to your comments.

I didn't.


2. As someone who has worked in the front lines of customer service for 2 of the largest corporations in the world for 34 years , I find common courtesy to be a invaluable tool when dealing with customers.But you're creating your own definition, and -- clearly -- others don't agree with it.

Wagging a civil tongue -- I would agree -- is clearly common courtesy, but ... not posting about a defective machine until you've achieved a resolution with a customer service department ... doesn't strike me as being "common courtesy."

I've given reasons why I think it may be of less value to forum participants than CIVILLY highlighting a defect as soon as it's recognized, and then seeking a resolution with the seller/manufacturer.


3. I used the terms "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent" only to demonstrate that little information found on the internet neither correct,verifiable, and that airing comments publically isn't necessarily a good thing. Embarrassing someone, some company or their employees is not the best method to get a resolution to one's problems.Then ... IMO ... THAT is a separate problem that deserves to be addressed: civility, language, and tone, when posting about a defective product.


4. As a former VP of a large firm I am sure you realize that cutting QC helps reduce costs and expand market share. Every major company is doing it. If they didn't, most of the folks at this site couldn't afford the tools the use in pursuing this hobby.Finding the sweet spot -- wherever the company determines that should be -- is the goal OF the company, though. It's analogous to telling a doctor when it hurts. The more accurate and valid feedback the company can get, and the faster they can get it, the more responsive they can be in adapting their business model.

We probably all know that some companies are more a "you pays your money and you takes your chances" than others (IME, maybe Harbor Freight fits that definition). But ... if a company has consciously decided that a defect rate of, say, 10% is the sweet spot for their business model, I, for one, would like to know about it. Maybe I'd rather buy from somebody else.

Companies aren't harmed by decent people who reasonably present their issues in a public arena.

To Mike Cruz: forgive me. I assumed that this forum was appropriate for discussion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discussion). If I was mistaken, then I apologize.

[Paul Ryan]

In some instances I think it a good thing to "air our dirty laundry" out on the forum. Because the forum as we have seen in the past is kind of like a "jury of your peers". Many of us tell it like it is. In a few short posts the company and individual will get a sense if what the person is complaining about has merit or not. We have seen countless people get called out because they really were being unreasonable. But in other cases the OP was being to soft and taken advantage of. But I really think calling for help from a president quickly is just plain imature. Use the necessary customer service channels and be patient these manufacturers have many customer and concerns to deal with, no one more important than the other. I am as guilty as anyone in being impatient. We want our tools and purchases to work correctly when new.

My biggest problem with tool manufacturers today. Is when something doesn't arrive properly, they expect the consumer to fix it with the parts they supply. Many people are not capable of that. And then it becomes a real hassle either to send it back or try to fix it your self. If you send it back you are waiting a long time shipping, the tool being repaired, and return shipping. All the while your $100, $1000, $10000 being tied up in a tool you cant use. I believe this is where arguments many times originate from.

[mreza Salav]

I tend to agree with Neal. He has a valid point.
Although customer service is important, not needing it is even better.
If you bought a product and every few months you need to deal with them (even if they respond quickly, send parts for free, etc), what kind of product is it?
Or if 5% of products have defects upon arrival, vs. another brand that has 0.5%, then it means the quality control is 10 times worse.

So, aside from knowing which companies deal with the problems "after they are found" well, I'd like to know which companies/products are less likely to have problems in the first place.

[Van Huskey]

I do not have a problem with someone posting a DOA or other issue with a tool prior to contact with the company for several reasons:

1. Occasionally, someone will point out "you need to move lever C to the left and all will be fine". This saves time for the buyer and allows him to use his tool ASAP and builds this knowledge in for future purchasers.

2. On the other hand, someone may point out that what they describe is proper operation.

3. It may be pointed out that continuing to try to use that tool is dangerous.

4. As mentioned I want to know who is shipping poor QCed tools

It is important for the buyer to return to the thread and describe the process the company went through to fix the issue so that readers can be fair in their accessment of the issue. It is encumbent on the reader to accept this may be an isolated problem and make a mental note to look for a trend. The internet is no different than pre-internet days when if you bought a tool and it didn't work you told your friends now we just have more "friends". Same as then we have to consider the source and look at how the company handles the issue.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

But ... you, sir, are the moderator. I'm just a former VP of a couple of national retail chains who -- among other responsibilities -- managed Operations, Customer Service, and Quality Control.


You didn't?

[Neil Brooks]

You didn't?

Nossir. I wasn't intimidated ... which ... was your statement.

I was, rather, respectful -- respectful of the fact that -- as moderator -- you are a part of the rule-making process for this particular forum, and that -- as a participant -- I would need to abide BY those rules or depart.

Nothing more. If I wasn't clear, in the way I presented it, then ... that's my fault.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Then explain the rationale of pointing it out please.

I would think you would say "I wasn't"?

[Neil Brooks]

Then explain the rationale of pointing it out please.

I would think you would say "I wasn't"?

Ken, I just explained the rationale.

You ARE correct, though. "I wasn't" would have been much better grammar. I take responsibility for that, and apologize for the ambiguity.

I only meant to say that the final decision is yours (along with whoever make the rules for this site), and to make it clear that I understand that.

[Neil Brooks]

And ... technically ... since I meant to respond to this comment


I'm sorry you feel intimidated by a Moderator resplying to your comments."I didn't" is an appropriate phrasing.

But ... I'd be really happy to discuss the topic at hand, and leave you to take my word for it that I intended no disrespect.

[Matt Stiegler]

This has degenerated into a very un-SMC level of discourse.

[Van Huskey]

I tend to agree with Neal. He has a valid point.
Although customer service is important, not needing it is even better.
If you bought a product and every few months you need to deal with them (even if they respond quickly, send parts for free, etc), what kind of product is it?
Or if 5% of products have defects upon arrival, vs. another brand that has 0.5%, then it means the quality control is 10 times worse.

So, aside from knowing which companies deal with the problems "after they are found" well, I'd like to know which companies/products are less likely to have problems in the first place.


Agreed, much better to deal with a company that has excellent customer SUPPORT than one that needs and even has excellent customer SERVICE.

[Rod Sheridan]

My $0.02:

I'd rather have a good product than a good warranty, or than good customer service.

Quality should be designed in, not tested out (or left to the consumer to evaluate, and for customer service to address).

Airing one's grievances on a forum like this should never be a substitute for a professional and respectful call to the seller/manufacturer. With that, I couldn't agree more.

That said ... IMHO ... a product that was defective on arrival, even if the manufacturer/seller eventually fixed it ... doesn't earn a grade of A+.

We all know the frustration, delay, disappointment, stress, and headaches those episodes can cause.

I'd rather have all the information that I can possibly get about ... whose products are likely to work when I take them out of the package, and -- perhaps more importantly -- whose products have a higher likelihood of needing a 'customer service intervention' [often followed by a rather inconvenient delay, waiting on tech support or replacement parts, etc.] before they'll work properly.

YMMV.

I agree, I'd rather have it right the first time, almost every time.

After that, I'd want the company to take good measures to make things correct, without me having to do much.

If I buy a new car, I don't expect to have to take it apart and repair it, even if they give me a free part.

With a piece of stationary machinery, I would expect on site service.

With a portable power tool, or portable machinery, lets say like a bench top mortiser, I would expect to have to take it to a service center, or ship it there.

My last problem with a piece of machinery was a power feeder that didn't have an electrical approval sticker on it. The manufacturers response was "we've ordered a replacement one for you, we'll let you know when it comes in."

I had to return just the feeder, not the brackets and columns which were already bolted to the shaper.

If it had been a stationary piece of equipment, I would have asked them to come to my house with the inspector and approve it, however a 30 Kg piece was something I could be expected to carry.

So yes, I'd like to know who gets it right at the beginning, as well as who doesn't and how the problems are resolved.

I also agree completely that everyone has failures, and it is expected that we will deal fairly, accurately and politely with the vendors.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Rimmer]

Quite a hot subject. I agree that I would like to know about defective product shipments but I also agree that the comapny should be given time to respond. What that time gap is will be open for discussion forever. What I would think one would do (or not) is get a bad tool at 3 or 4 o'clock, check it out and after the CS is closed get on SMC and rant about it. After the fact, certainly, post your experience. If I see multiple posts about defective products from Company X and what was done and how long it took, then I can decide that I am willing (or not) to take a chance with that company because pricing is good or not take a chance because resolution is not good. It just gives me more data points for my purchasing decision.

I've seen too many posts where the OP appeared to be doing it to get someone from the comapny who monitors this site to weigh in on their behalf. If that's what they want, contact them directly.

And this may get me in trouble but I think personal diagreements between posters (mods or not) should be taken to PMs.

[Clifford Mescher]

Neal,

1. Being a Moderator doesn't make my opinion any more or less valuable, more right or more wrong than anyone elses opinion. I nor any Moderator has ever implied that. I'm sorry you feel intimidated by a Moderator resplying to your comments.

2. As someone who has worked in the front lines of customer service for 2 of the largest corporations in the world for 34 years , I find common courtesy to be a invaluable tool when dealing with customers.

3. I used the terms "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent" only to demonstrate that little information found on the internet neither correct,verifiable, and that airing comments publically isn't necessarily a good thing. Embarrassing someone, some company or their employees is not the best method to get a resolution to one's problems.

4. As a former VP of a large firm I am sure you realize that cutting QC helps reduce costs and expand market share. Every major company is doing it. If they didn't, most of the folks at this site couldn't afford the tools the use in pursuing this hobby.
Is that really a trend? Major companies are cutting quality control?

[Brian Kincaid]

I like hearing about it. I expect there to be a difference between Powermatic and Grizzly for example. One is significantly lower cost for a comparable machine. My expectation is that the lower cost machine would have some corners cut in the realm of QC. But, I would also expect that both companies stand behind their machine until it is made right after the sale/issue.

-Brian

[Brian Kincaid]

I've seen too many posts where the OP appeared to be doing it to get someone from the company who monitors this site to weigh in on their behalf. If that's what they want, contact them directly.

And this may get me in trouble but I think personal diagreements between posters (mods or not) should be taken to PMs.

Agreed and Agreed.
-Brian

[Ed Griner]

The D&G syndrome occurs when a poster "SCREAMS OUT LOUD" I have a complaint!Most of the complainers,seem to panic,and use SMC as their personal soap box.One way to deal with this maybe,a "complaint forum".Where complaints could be submitted via private mail,reviewed by chosen reviewers and determine the best way to handle situation.When the complaint is resolved,it would then be posted for the memberships viewing.Eliminate complaints in new post,until resolved.This offer would only be available to contributors and cost less than $.02 a day. Complaints from non-contributors would not be accepted.
Ed

[Dave Lehnert]

Back on subject.

I think what the OP is referring to is using this forum to to get what they want fast, by force.

No secret the president of Grizzy tools is an active member here. So you are seeing right off the bat something like. " My bandsaw is broke and Grizzly CS says parts will take a week to get, Unhappy-Grizzly is junk etc...) That would be fine and good but you know it is just posted to get the President involved.

You don't see that kind of post much for Jet, Delta or the like and it would be hard for me to believe their CS is better than Grizzly.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Back on subject.

I think what the OP is referring to is using this forum to to get what they want fast, by force.

No secret the president of Grizzy tools is an active member here. So you are seeing right off the bat something like. " My bandsaw is broke and Grizzly CS says parts will take a week to get, Unhappy-Grizzly is junk etc...) That would be fine and good but you know it is just posted to get the President involved.

You don't see that kind of post much for Jet, Delta or the like and it would be hard for me to believe their CS is better than Grizzly.

EXACTLY the point I wanted to make.

Some people post initial quality issues on SMC for valid reasons... to let people know that a particular manufacturer didn't get something right at the beginning. I think this is a valid motivation for posting an issue, even before the manufacturer has had a chance to make good.

Others use this forum to whine to the president of Grizzly. These threads usually degrade into arguments over whether Grizzly makes quality tools and whether grizzly has quality customer service. Then Shiraz jumps in, saves the day, and everybody praises him. This scenario is annoying to many of us, but actually makes Grizzly look pretty good.

So my point is, I think it's fair to tell people that you received a DOA tool off the bat. Customer service isn't just limited to responding to problems in a fair way... Customer service starts with designing products with a low failure rate.

I think it's unreasonable for people to use the forum to get their own personal issues resolved faster. It dilutes the quality of the content on this forum.

Just my opinion. If I made anyone angry, please count to 10!!

[Van Huskey]

EXACTLY the point I wanted to make.

Some people post initial quality issues on SMC for valid reasons... to let people know that a particular manufacturer didn't get something right at the beginning. I think this is a valid motivation for posting an issue, even before the manufacturer has had a chance to make good.

Others use this forum to whine to the president of Grizzly. These threads usually degrade into arguments over whether Grizzly makes quality tools and whether grizzly has quality customer service. Then Shiraz jumps in, saves the day, and everybody praises him. This scenario is annoying to many of us, but actually makes Grizzly look pretty good.

So my point is, I think it's fair to tell people that you received a DOA tool off the bat. Customer service isn't just limited to responding to problems in a fair way... Customer service starts with designing products with a low failure rate.

I think it's unreasonable for people to use the forum to get their own personal issues resolved faster. It dilutes the quality of the content on this forum.

Just my opinion. If I made anyone angry, please count to 10!!

I agree. Actually, posting to get company "officials" attention tends to run those people off, or force them into "hiding". Their known presence tends to make them a target and probably causes as many concerns about their product as it resolves because people are more likely to mention issues if they think someone "important" is listening. It might be profitable to be an active member of a forum if you are a small or fledgling business but a large corp is less likely to benefit.

[Callan Campbell]

What I love about this thread is that the first poster, the OP, hasn't been heard of since. We really took this one to a new level. And I thought the car business was bad. Interesting thoughts all the way around though.
Some of this boils down to people and types of people,who will ALWAYS yell loudly about a problem because they're 'sure' no one will take them seriously if they don't yell.
Then you have non-skilled or non-technical background people who can not see the way out of a problem without company help in short order, as they're not used to having to solve tool or machine issues by themselves. I don't knock these people much at all, there's little incentive in todays retail world to learn how to fix something yourself when it comes to tools and DIY machinery. So many other goods of all kinds are simply returned without question, so you have people looking at ALL goods with the same set of lens.
As for Customer Support or Service, I can speak years and volumes about this, at a field level, and having watched some managers and VPs above me do well in this area, and also blow it, I have a few thoughts about all of it. So let me rant about this , I guess
The Internet change ALL if it, forever. It speeds up happy thoughts, angry rants and gloats to a global level, right now, and we're all still learning how best to deal with it.
I totally agree that if a product or a service is done right the first time, you don't need customer service except to handle thank you's and more sales orders for more of a great product. That would be ideal.
In my line of work, everything is so cut-throat and based on 'just-in-time' manufacturing that anyone who needs spare parts is often out of luck if a car model is selling well for the 1st year its been introduced. God help you if you wreck a new car and need body parts. I'm actually thrilled if a woodworking tool or machinery company tells me a part is only on back-order for a few days or a week or two, since I'm dealing with 3 to 6 months back orders on a regular basis due to globalization forces and a bad economy to boot.
China, India and others like the USA are bidding for raw materials all at the same time, there's less to go around guys, I see a whole different world than most people apparently, with everyone assuming their jointer, planer, etc must just be sitting in a warehouse, ready to fly out on UPS or FedEx wings.
Be thrilled that Powermatic, Grizzly, or any other company that you like and buy from is even around these days. I'm totally NOT saying you have to accept bad designs, poor QC or poor CS,instead, just look around at how many levels of bankrupted support companies have been taken down in the car business that I'm in. Design companies, small and medium suppliers of all kinds poof, gone. With that, you had people at all levels of engineering and design that backed up the product.
We're so lucky with woodworking right now, we actually have a resurgence of premium hand tool companies across several countries, and we get to pick and chose equipment from a huge playing field of price points, all delivered to our door if we so choose or if we don't have a brick and motar store near us to look things over.
My final point in all of this is to enjoy wood, and working with it, it's a rare thing that can be planted in the ground as a tiny seed and harvested years from now to start the enjoyment process all over again. Sorry I had to rant, I feel much better now:D

[Phil Thien]

The way I see it, until J.D. Power wants to start rating tools for "initial problems," we have to rely on this and other forums.

So I agree that hearing about problems is valuable.

[Keith Outten]

We are going to take a more active role moderating these kinds of threads in the future.

I have said many times in the past that negative comments about companies must be backed up with facts and that generic comments were not to be made publicly. I am hesitant to ban these kinds of threads because used properly they can be helpful bringing attention to a problem that otherwise may not be resolved.

It is extremely important that we are responsible concerning this issue since negative information may very well cause irreparable harm to a companiy at this level. Effective immediately you will notice that these threads will be removed quickly if there is any concern by our Staff that they are not presented in a professional manner, if we feel they cannot be documented or if the tone of the message is unfriendly.

It is well known here that I have had a problem with Xenetech for many years and I have been very outspoken about my discontent with the machine we purchased at CNU. I didn't make any public comments about this situation until I worked my way through their tech support system and then had two telephone conversations with the President of their company. After several months waiting for them to resolve the problem I decided that others here may benefit from my experience so I made my case against Xenetech in our Engravers Forum. This is what we should expect before people start ranting publicly about any company or their products. Obviously the time line would depend on the situation and the details, in my case it was a software issue that I felt they deserved several months to correct. Sadly the problem has never been resolved.

Please help us by reporting threads that you feel are irresponsible or violate our Terms of Service. The first member of our Staff that receives your message will remove the thread and we will then evaluate whether it has merit or if it is to be deleted.
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[Mike Cruz]

Thank you Keith.

What I love about this forum is all the opinions. Everyone has one, everyone is entitled to theirs.

What I hated about this thread is that it turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" arguement.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

Realistically as the size of the Creek grows and the number of personalities here grows....you will probably see more dissension.

[Paul Johnstone]

I guess I don't see the problem with these posts that say "My XYZ tablesaw arrived damaged" or whatever. How is that any different from posts bragging about a great Craig's List score or whatever? A lot of threads on this topic are just chatting about woodworking as opposed to design or whatever.

If a major tool purchase arrives nonfunctioning or damaging, that's a pretty tramautic thing for the poster. No reason not to let him vent/cry a little bit.

Seriously, if these type of threads bother you, why read them? Most have clear titles indicating what the subject is about. I appreciate the information (good or bad) about people's experiences. I also agree that it's far better to have the tool work great out of the box than to go through customer service, replace parts, etc.

[Neil Brooks]

What I hated about this thread is that it turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" arguement.


I wonder how many would agree with you.

I saw -- for the MOST part -- a thoughtful discussion.

[Michael MacDonald]

So Keith- just to clarify the etiquette. Does that mean the SMC policy is to remove announcements about initial quality issues unless the story contains the follow-up and resolution as well? Seems extreme to me.

For example, I got a Delta DP350 drill press a while ago. has a minor problem--the top panel is supposed to be removed weekly to oil, and it barely fits... it looks like the panel was sized badly and the screw holes are misaligned with the casing... in fact, Delta resorted to metal screws instad of machine screws for two of the six spots. It makes it a bit more painful to oil the thing. I don't intend to do anything about it--just another one of life's minor annoyances.

So should I post that? Is it not curteous to simply point out initial quality issues. Does the vendor not benefit from reading that, having the opportunity to respond and adjust the balance of profit vs. QC cost?

I agree that complaints need to be true... and should be complete. But I bet that for every complaint there is another post the thread where another guys says "not me... I liked that product..." or "hey... you sound more angry than rational...". I would expect anyone who makes something up that is extreme would get called out.

As an example, there is a Samsung discussion board on amazon that is monitored by a rep from the company... they guy actually responds to posts about their products and tries to help... I bet he gets a lot of crap, but the company must find it valuable. (BTW, good initial quality on my 46-inch LCD last year)

[Michael MacDonald]

I read the post again... maybe I overreacted to what Keith wrote. But still, I have yet to be annoyed by a tool problem post, so I don't want to quash any new threads. And I guarantee you that before I buy a tool I search for the tool name and the terms "problem" and "complaint" before I buy...

It sound like Grizzly unofficially monitors this forum and gets involved if necessary... perhaps all the big manufacturers should start to do that officially.

[Mike Cruz]

Paul, if you were responding to me by saying if this post bothers you, just don't read it, let me say this: I like the topic. I understand both sides of the issue. I am interested in people's opinions about this subject. Therefore, I read responses. What I don't like is that, after poster "X" gives and opinion, poster "Y" says otherwise, then poster "X" argues that he is right and others are wrong for thinking their opinion.

This type of thread elicits opinion. Not fact. This is not a "what type of TS blade should I use to rip stock" kind of thread. It is one that lets people say what they think is the best way to approach issues with tools.

Sometimes, understandably, poster "X" states his views. Then someone else misunderstands what poster "X" meant, and poster "X" may feel the need to further explain. But when poster "X" says the grass is tall and needs mowing, and poster "Y" says that he thinks it doesn't need mowing yet, and then poster "X" comes back to tell poster "Y" that it is rediculous that he thinks that the grass doesn't need mowing yet, I find this argumentative and that it leads nowhere positive.

THAT is why I didn't like where this thread went.

By the way, the reason I responded to your post is that I believe you didn't understand why I still read the post, and why I don't just pass on it. I didn't respond to argue with you. Just to give you my opinion on what makes for a welcoming friendly forum. If you disagree and like the banter, that is your choice.

[Dan Friedrichs]

So Keith- just to clarify the etiquette. Does that mean the SMC policy is to remove announcements about initial quality issues unless the story contains the follow-up and resolution as well? Seems extreme to me.



Initially I agreed that this policy would be "extreme", but if you think about it, is there any value to posting a review/complaint immediately, rather than waiting for the situation to be resolved?

I think posters (with "assistance" from the moderators) just need to present things in a factual, non-emotional way. I would submit that all such posts really ought to fall into one of these categories:

1) Minor initial problem with a tool that the buyer fixes himself or ignores (not significant enough / not worth the trouble to contact the manufacturer). I think SMC users want to know about these initial quality issues, however minor.

2) Major initial problem with a tool, and the manufacturer satisfactorily resolves the problem. SMC users appreciate hearing about the initial quality AND customer servicer, but I'm not sure there is value in posting these kinds of issues until they've been fully resolved.

3) Major initial problem, and the manufacturer has been unwilling to satisfactorily resolve the problem. Here, SMC users can suggest alternate ways of resolving the problem and/or tell the OP that he is being unreasonable about it. This requires that the OP spend some time to pursue his complaint through normal channels and only post once those channels have been exhausted.

[Keith Outten]

I prefer not to lay down a lot of hard rules concerning this type of thread. I would also have to type three pages of definitions to go with one page of rules. Lets just all agree that we know when someone is bashing a company and when they aren't. Bashing is an irresponsible report IMO.

As I said before I don't want to ban this topic, it has value to this community.

Be reasonable, be responsible, be factual and be friendly. Everyone will benefit from the information you share.

For the record I don't think that paint scratches are an issue that anyone should publicly horse-whip a company over. Do yourself a favor, get a screwdriver and give your band new machine a good scratch as soon as you get it out of the carton, it is going to get scratched if you use it so get the pain out of the way upfront :)
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[Michael MacDonald]

...is there any value to posting a review/complaint immediately, rather than waiting for the situation to be resolved?

My very first opinion was: "why does the order matter?" watching it evolved in a thread seems just as valuable as reading a single post with the problem, follow-up and resolution. And perhaps even more entertaining? For many potential readers, whose tool research will happen long after the thread is dead, it is a mute point... i.e. the whole story is in the thread across many posts. So I think there is value for immediate posting--as much value as waiting for the resolution to post the experience. Plus, I think human nature is to post right away. If one waits, then one forgets or looses motivation. Thus less information online, which does not help me make buying decisions.



...I think posters (with "assistance" from the moderators) just need to present things in a factual, non-emotional way. I would submit that all such posts really ought to fall into one of these categories:

1) Minor initial problem with a tool that the buyer fixes himself or ignores...
2) Major initial problem with a tool, and the manufacturer satisfactorily resolves the problem...
3) Major initial problem, and the manufacturer has been unwilling to satisfactorily resolve the problem...

I agree with this categorization. But I think waiting serves to reduce the info in the forum about initial quality. People are less likely to comment for #2. And #3 really is a complaint about customer service, not about the initial quality problem. Different focus. I think better to see it play out in real time.

(I split the quote in this post, and killed some extra text... I hope that comes off correctly.)

[Michael MacDonald]

Be reasonable, be responsible, be factual and be friendly. Everyone will benefit from the information you share.

Can't argue with that.

[michael case]

I don't see the problem with suggesting that a customer should contact the manufacturer and give them a chance to resolve an issue before complaining on the web. Recently someone started a thread on SMC bashing Grizzly about a damaged G0490 jointer. After stirring everyone up, it turned out the complainer had made no appreciable effort to explain the situation to Grizzly and the only problem was the replacement guard they sent had dust on it and no stickers (boo, hoo hoo). This is wrong for several reasons. ONE: its a waste of time for all of us. TWO: It gives a company bad press without a fair chance at resolving the issue (its like being condemned without a trial). And THREE: enough idiotic complaints being posted on the web by people who don't even bother to call the company first is going to wear out the patience of people like Shiraz Bolalia and Steven Gass. As a result, real complaints will begin to be dismisssed. I'm firm in dealing with companies when something legitemately goes wrong, But come on! call them FIRST, before running to Mommy Web.