Why is the fence on the right?

[Cliff Holmes]

I threw my back out of whack this morning while adjusting my new tablesaw, so I spent some time just sitting in the shop and thinking. The tablesaw injury thread from yesterday came to mind and I was contemplating kickbacks and how they happen.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel most comfortable feeding wood into the tablesaw with my right hand, which means the natural position is generally just to the left of the blade line, i.e. right in the path of a kickback.

So I wondered "why are fences always on the right side?" Is there some reason not to put the fence on the left side?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Cliff,

They aren't always on the right.

In fact, my fence has magnifiers and adjustable position indicators on both sides so it can be used on either the left or the right side of the blade.

[Cliff Holmes]

Well, yes, I know you can put the fence on the left, but that's a limited range. Usually only a foot or so, while you can go out 50 inches or more on the right. But I've never seen a saw where the extended range is on the left, it's always on the right. Why is there never a saw with a foot on the right and 5 feet on the left?

[Mitchell Andrus]

I threw my back out of whack this morning while adjusting my new tablesaw, so I spent some time just sitting in the shop and thinking. The tablesaw injury thread from yesterday came to mind and I was contemplating kickbacks and how they happen.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel most comfortable feeding wood into the tablesaw with my right hand, which means the natural position is generally just to the left of the blade line, i.e. right in the path of a kickback.

So I wondered "why are fences always on the right side?" Is there some reason not to put the fence on the left side?

If you stand to the right of the blade, you've got to reach across the blade to clear the cutoff at the left side and at the rear of the blade - or walk past the blade's plane to get to the left side so you can clear debris without reaching across the blade.

Standing to the left of the blade and reaching across to use a push stick on the right of the blade is relatively safe (safer) because:

1. Your right hand is 'mounted' to the stock with a push stick and the stock is riding the fence. Overall, this is a relatively stable condition for one of your hands.

2. Your left hand is then free to control the loose cut off at the left of the blade without reaching across the blade.

That's how I do it anyway.

No doubt professionals in the insurance industry have studied this to death and if the best we can do after 100 years is the Saw Stop, there must not be very much further we can go with regard to where to plant our feet.

(Relax, I think the Saw Stop is WONDERFUL and is on my short list of wants. Let's not get sidetracked)
.

[Lee Schierer]

The piece that is most likely to be kicked back is the piece trapped between the blade and the fence. Since the majority of users are right handed it is easier for them to use their right hand to push the piece being cut toward the fence with their right hand. This places the body to the left of the piece being cut and out of the way of a potential kick back. The cut off piece left of the blade isn't trapped so it is not likely to ever kick back.

Standing to the right of the fence while cutting to the right of the blade doesn't make any since since you can't see if the piece is tight to the fence and you can't get your hand turned properly to grip the piece.

[Jim O'Dell]

There isn't any written rule that says you can;t put the fence and longer part of the rail to the left. In fact, in researching longer rails for my Biese fence, I remember one of the options as being one that was 72 to the left, and 24 to the right.
I would think the big thing would be to use the saw in the way that you feel most safe and secure. Most rails that use the angle iron to mount the rail to the saw are set up to go to the right. A little bit of grinding with a hand grinder would easily convert it to go to the left. Replace the tape with one that reads right to left and you're in business. Jim.

[Cliff Holmes]

This places the body to the left of the piece being cut and out of the way of a potential kick back

Actually, if you look at the physics of the kickback, generally the left edge climbs the blade, which pins the piece between the fence and blade. This causes the piece to spin and throws it to the left of the blade, not straight back.

[Lee Schierer]

Actually, if you look at the physics of the kickback, generally the left edge climbs the blade, which pins the piece between the fence and blade. This causes the piece to spin and throws it to the left of the blade, not straight back.

Really, I've never observed the piece on the left moving unless I pushed it into the blade. I've always understood the usual cause for kick back is a piece being pinched into the blade by the fence, that is why many folks recommend tailing the fence away from the blade slightly at the back of the saw. Tailing the fence away would provide no benefit if the piece to the left of the blade caused the kickback.

Once I tuned up my saw so the blade was aligned with the miter slot and the fence was aligned with the same miter slot, making it also parallel to the blade, I've not had a kick back of any type.

Feather boards will prevent most kick backs before they can start so I use mine regularly.

[Tony Bilello]

.......I spent some time just sitting in the shop and thinking....contemplating kickbacks and how they happen.

....I feel most comfortable feeding wood into the tablesaw with my right hand, which means the natural position is generally just to the left of the blade line, i.e. right in the path of a kickback.

I personally feel that 95% of kickbacks can be avoided by not thinking about them.
Generally speaking, kickbacks are caused the wood getting pinched inbetween the blade and the fence. One cause is the fence alignment where the rear of the blade is closer to the fence than the front of the blade. Another cause is the wood changing shape while still being cut due to relief of internal stresses. And lastly, due to the twisting motion of the wood caused by the operator because he is fixated on not standing in the line of fire. This is probably the largest cause.
Forget the nonsense about 'dont stand in the line of fire'. You must stand in a place where you have the best balance and the best leverage for pushing the wood through as straight as you can irregardless of your position in relation to the line of fire. If you are pushing from a slight angle with the sole purpose of avoiding kickback, you will actually cause it.

[Cliff Holmes]

Really, I've never observed the piece on the left moving unless I pushed it into the blade

No, I mean the left side of the piece on the right, between the blade and fence.

[Cliff Holmes]

Found this video showing a kickback in slow motion, you can see the wood climb the blade and shoot off to the side.

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/table-saw-kickback-demonstration/ECA511B78388564520B4ECA511B78388564520B4

[Lee Schierer]

Exactly my point. That kick back never would have occurred if he had control of the piece with his right hand holding it to the fence and by pushing the part all the way through the cut past the blade. He made the problem occur by trying to control the piece with finger tips instead of a push block and by reaching awkwardly over the table and fence. By stopping part way through the cut and releasing the back end of the piece while pushing the leading edge toward the blade with his fingers, he guaranteed he would get a kickback for his video.

[Cliff Holmes]

OK, PLEASE, before yet another thread degenerates into "only unsafe people have accidents" chaos, stop!

Let's just go ahead and concede that I'm a total moron who juggles live toasters in the bathtub.

The point of showing the video is to demonstrate that WHEN a kickback happens, it DOESN'T go straight back. So when my stupid self gets a kickback, standing to the side is NOT safe.

There, I feel better now :)

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Actually, if you look at the physics of the kickback, generally the left edge climbs the blade, which pins the piece between the fence and blade. This causes the piece to spin and throws it to the left of the blade, not straight back.

If you put the fence on the other side, you reverse the physics and the kickback would thus fly to the right.

[Cliff Holmes]

Exactly. Which is the point of wondering about putting the fence on the other side, to reverse the direction of the kickback to where I'm not standing.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Which brings to mind a foolproof way of stopping kickbacks.. A fence on the left, a fence on the right and feather boards on both holding the stock down while it's fed in.. :D

Anyway, having the fence on the left would obstruct your grip of the work piece as you would have to reach over the saw fence. Unless you were cutting some wide stock.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Cliff,

Obviously this saw was set up to cause this problem.

What physics caused it? It was pinched between the fence and the blade.

Where is the blade guard with the splitter, the hated pawls and or the riving knife?

And as stated...if the fence is placed on the other side...the physic are still the same.......

[Cliff Holmes]

Where is the blade guard with the splitter, the hated pawls and or the riving knife?

And as stated...if the fence is placed on the other side...the physic are still the same.......

I don't think a riving knife, etc, completely eliminates the chance of kickback.

As for the physics being the same (but reversed), that's my point. I'm trying to reverse it so I don't get hit.

[Cliff Holmes]

Which brings to mind a foolproof way of stopping kickbacks.. A fence on the left, a fence on the right and feather boards on both holding the stock down while it's fed in.. :D

I vote for dual power feeders :)

[Jason Roehl]

I personally feel that 95% of kickbacks can be avoided by not thinking about them.
Generally speaking, kickbacks are caused the wood getting pinched inbetween the blade and the fence. One cause is the fence alignment where the rear of the blade is closer to the fence than the front of the blade. Another cause is the wood changing shape while still being cut due to relief of internal stresses. And lastly, due to the twisting motion of the wood caused by the operator because he is fixated on not standing in the line of fire. This is probably the largest cause.
Forget the nonsense about 'dont stand in the line of fire'. You must stand in a place where you have the best balance and the best leverage for pushing the wood through as straight as you can irregardless of your position in relation to the line of fire. If you are pushing from a slight angle with the sole purpose of avoiding kickback, you will actually cause it.

That's always been my approach--it is much easier to push a piece straight through a cut when you are standing directly behind it. Standing to the side means your arm has to undergo a very complex motion to move the piece straight along the fence (maintaining a constant force against the fence and through the cut), plus you end up reaching over the blade, even if you are using a push stick or block.

[Brandon Weiss]

OK, PLEASE, before yet another thread degenerates into "only unsafe people have accidents" chaos, stop!

Let's just go ahead and concede that I'm a total moron who juggles live toasters in the bathtub.

The point of showing the video is to demonstrate that WHEN a kickback happens, it DOESN'T go straight back. So when my stupid self gets a kickback, standing to the side is NOT safe.

There, I feel better now :)

Wow..........

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I don't think a riving knife, etc, completely eliminates the chance of kickback.

As for the physics being the same (but reversed), that's my point. I'm trying to reverse it so I don't get hit.

Cliff,

Even your venerable SS has a blade guard ...with a riving knife and pawls. The riving knife will reduce the chances of the piece being trapped OR internally released pressure from causing the wood to come back together at the back of the blade and causing a kick back.

Use of the pawls that everybody loves to hate and bad mouth will reduce it too. I know. The only time I don't use a blade guard with pawls is when using my dado blade.

As stated...the best way to apply even pressure is standing directly in the line of fire. In the video the guy was standing to one side..part of the problem was created by him only applying pressure to the right side of the piece he's pushing through the blade. That act alone helped create the problem.

[Van Huskey]

Cliff,

Even your venerable SS has a blade guard .


Has the SS been aorund long enough to be venerable? :D Maybe your pont was it is sacred... :p


To the original post, I think it has more to do with convention and the right handedness of humans than anything else. It made even less sense in the days of wide-spread right tilting arbors.

[Jeff Bratt]

Kickbacks - there are two different kinds. The one demonstrated in the video is probably the most common, where the workpiece gets pinched between the blade and the fence, and shoots off towards the operator to the left of the blade. The other kind is where reaction wood pinches the kerf closed on blade, and shoots the wood directly back in line with the blade. There is no practical place for the operator to stand that is "out of the line of fire" for all kickbacks.

An important consideration for avoiding kickback (the first kind above) is to maintain some pressure pushing the workpiece against the fence when ripping. If the operator is pushing the workpiece with his right hand, this is easier if the fence is to the right of the blade. For lefties, the reverse is probably true. But this explains why most saws are set up with the fence to the right of the blade.

You should set up your saw for each cut based on how you push the workpiece through the saw, and - if making a bevel cut - on which way the blade tilts relative to the fence. And always use appropriate safety accessories, like splitter, riving knife, blade guard, featherboards, hold-downs and push-blocks as required.

[Nathan Callender]

I know where Cliff is coming from. I'm left handed and use the saw in the same way that Cliff is asking about (except that my saw is set up normally, and I stand to the right of the blade - and fence if it's a narrow cut). I've done it both ways, the 'right' way and my way, and it just works better for my that way - I'm more in control of what's going on. I use my left hand (and push block) to push the work through, I use my right hand for support on the table, and I can keep an eye on the work and the fence and the blade just fine. The other way, I'm using my right hand (not as dexterous) and reaching across the blade line, which sort of screams like a bad idea to me.

I still can't figure out what all the fuss is about. I really honestly think it's safer for me this way (why else would I do it?), but maybe I'm missing something really obvious.

[Van Huskey]

I know where Cliff is coming from. I'm left handed and use the saw in the same way that Cliff is asking about (except that my saw is set up normally, and I stand to the right of the blade - and fence if it's a narrow cut). I've done it both ways, the 'right' way and my way, and it just works better for my that way - I'm more in control of what's going on. I use my left hand (and push block) to push the work through, I use my right hand for support on the table, and I can keep an eye on the work and the fence and the blade just fine. The other way, I'm using my right hand (not as dexterous) and reaching across the blade line, which sort of screams like a bad idea to me.

I still can't figure out what all the fuss is about. I really honestly think it's safer for me this way (why else would I do it?), but maybe I'm missing something really obvious.


It wouldn't be that difficult to set most saws up to have full rip capacity on the left, if that is what works for you. Should be a weekend project, the only issue is if you have a left tilt arbor which would cause some issues with bevel cuts, but no more than "normal" saws with a right tilt.

[Dan Lee]

I know where Cliff is coming from. I'm left handed and use the saw in the same way that Cliff is asking about (except that my saw is set up normally, and I stand to the right of the blade - and fence if it's a narrow cut). I've done it both ways, the 'right' way and my way, and it just works better for my that way - I'm more in control of what's going on. I use my left hand (and push block) to push the work through, I use my right hand for support on the table, and I can keep an eye on the work and the fence and the blade just fine. The other way, I'm using my right hand (not as dexterous) and reaching across the blade line, which sort of screams like a bad idea to me.

I still can't figure out what all the fuss is about. I really honestly think it's safer for me this way (why else would I do it?), but maybe I'm missing something really obvious.

I'm left handed also with fence on the conventional side. I use my right had to feed stock. I never felt like I could apply adequate/consistent pressure to the fence using my left hand. My left hand will direct some pressure into the fence towards the end of the cut my right hands thumb will be behind the board edge and continuto apply pressure to the fence.

[Michael Gibbons]

At one time, I thought I saw a Beisemeyer fence rail that went 52" to left and right of the blade in their catalog.

[David Prince]

I threw my back out of whack this morning while adjusting my new tablesaw, so I spent some time just sitting in the shop and thinking. The tablesaw injury thread from yesterday came to mind and I was contemplating kickbacks and how they happen.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel most comfortable feeding wood into the tablesaw with my right hand, which means the natural position is generally just to the left of the blade line, i.e. right in the path of a kickback.

So I wondered "why are fences always on the right side?" Is there some reason not to put the fence on the left side?

I would feel totally uncomfortable pushing with my right hand with a fence on the left side. As you clear the cut, you have now lost sight of the blade when your arm goes across your line of sight. You could stand further to the left and stick your neck out to your right like a stork, but that would be tiresome after a full day. Fence on the right using a right hand to push allows for full view of the blade. Left handed people could probably justify the left fence position and would feel comfortable with it and still be able to see the blade if pushing with their left.

[Keith Westfall]

As this appears to be a "demonstration" rather than real life, it is apparent that it would not happen if he was holding the wood securely. He let go and the kickback was the result.

Trying to cut from behind the fence is a terrible way to do it. No control on the board or he cut.

Maintain good pressure on the board from the stance behind the saw, and you will prevent most, if not all of it.

Yes, as you said, the board went back to where the operator "could have been standing," but if he had been standing there with control of the cut and board, it wouldn't have happened.

Showing the cut from behind the fence, may cause someone to think they are 'safer' using that method, but in fact they are setting themselves up for much more problems, kickbacks and possible injuries from a lack of control of their cut.

[harry strasil]

Another can of worms thread.

If it works for you, you are not gonna change, and why try to impose the way you do things on others, the way they do it works for them, but may not work for you, and vice-versa. You are the best judge of what works for you. If its not broke why fix it!

[Von Bickley]

Well, yes, I know you can put the fence on the left, but that's a limited range. Usually only a foot or so, while you can go out 50 inches or more on the right. But I've never seen a saw where the extended range is on the left, it's always on the right. Why is there never a saw with a foot on the right and 5 feet on the left?

Cliff,
I recently moved my unifence table and rail to the left side of my Delta contractor saw. My reason for doing this was because my saw is a right tilt TS and I did not want my work piece to be trapped between the blade and the fence.
I can still put my unifence of the right hand side for ripping narrow pieces. I can rip about 9.5 inches on the right hand side.

[Mitchell Andrus]

WHEN a kickback happens, it DOESN'T go straight back.
:)

Wrong! wrong, wrong. Well, it did in my case.... My one and only kick back happened straight back.

The wood had an interior crack in it - I saw it and was cleaning up the piece to see if I could use it for a panel glue up.

As the blade came upon it, a sliver of wood dislodged and jammed the blade. The wood had not yet been completely ripped, so it didn't tilt, chatter, twist or ride up on an angle and didn't get trapped against the fence. The top of the blade was trapped in the kerf like a Chinese finger puzzle and it shot the piece straight back with the blade running though the kerf.

I found the pieces later on the other side of the room and saw the problem. The crack ran on an angle co-planar to the blade.

My finger was in it's path (feeding the board at the end) and I lost a nail due to the impact - black finger nail syndrome.

I know someone who nearly lost the pad on his thumb the same way. He was pushing on a piece already cut at a 45* angle. Came back and ripped a hunk loose.

I no longer wrap my fingers around the end of the board.
.

[Stephen Edwards]

Most of rips are to the right of the blade just 'cause that's what I'm comfortable with. Once in a while I'll rip to the left of the blade, usually if the outfeed table on the right has a stack of boards on it!

To me, it's whatever one is comfortable with; left or right can both be right. It doesn't matter.

As a friend of mine says: It's easy to get caught up in "analysis paralysis". This is not a critique of your question. It's just how I feel about right of blade vs left of blade.

[Dan Lee]

I don't think a riving knife, etc, completely eliminates the chance of kickback.

As for the physics being the same (but reversed), that's my point. I'm trying to reverse it so I don't get hit.

Not sure why not if the teeth rotating upwards cannot contact the stock.
Here 2 pics of a kick back I had. I didn't have the splitter installed on my then PM66 or or I should have used my CC sled the peice was maybe 4x6. My right thigh took the impact it came up over the top of the blade. My right leg was several inches to the left of the blade. My thigh was black/blue/yellow you name for 3 weeks

139119

[mreza Salav]

It's hard to say things "absolutely" or "100%" but I think if a riving knife is properly installed and aligned the chance of a kick back is extremely small.
I could be proved wrong though if someone can show.

[Peter Quinn]

I've used the fence to the left a handful of times for stop cuts where I had no choice but to set up that way. I always approach it like a lefty in those cases, pushing with my left hand and holding the work with my right. It seems to me that if I get one of those kickbacks that rolls over the blade and starts to spin helicopter style, it won't matter which side of the blade my fence is on, if I'm standing in the standard "safe" position for ripping from that side of the blade, I'm taking one in the teeth. Its a symmetrical situation. You're screwed either way.

I've had kickbacks with shorter pieces of solid wood stand straight up and come backwards end over end without spinning at all. I've had pieces shoot straight back like a cannon had shot them, and I've had a "spinner" shoot up and over the saw from back right to front left. luckily the spinner was a sheet good and I was standing in the alley between the blade and the fence given the size of the piece and the fact that I am short. As I felt things get very weird, I let go and started jumping down and right as I felt the breeze of the flying MDF panel rush past my left ear.

In retrospect if I had been standing a bit more to the left and pushing a bit closer to the blade I doubt the spinner would have kicked, and If I had bothered to put the splitter back in, I know it wouldn't have happened. Sloppy technique from a guy in a rush at the end of a day was to blame. I find I get a lot less kickbacks in general when I keep a safe distance between my head and my butt, regardless of which is on the left and which is on the right.:D

[Brad Schafer]

... to quote bobby bowden: "DADGUM!" :eek:

[Jim Rimmer]

Discussion of how kickbacks happen aside, I have been sitting here trying to imagine pushing a board through the saw with the fence on the left side. Maybe it's just years of doing it with the fence on the right but in my mind it would seem incredibly awkward to have the fence on the left (I am right handed). With the fence left of the blade, if I stood to the right of the board, I would have my hand and arm over and above the blade exposing myself to danger and my arm would block my view. If I stood to the left of the board, I could not push the board against the fence and my vision would be obstructed by the fence itself. I think??

[John Sanford]

It's a simple matter of handedness. For a right handed person, having the fence on the right results in more natural motions and a better sightline. Since righties outnumber lefties by a wide margin, the market caters to us. :p

Same reason why most commercial workbenches put the face vise on the left (facing the bench) side of the bench. For a lefty, the other end of the benchfront would be superior.

[Vince Shriver]

So I wondered "why are fences always on the right side?" [/QUOTE]


because if they weren't, there'd be nothing to hold the stock against!

[Chip Lindley]

...juggles live toasters in the bath tub.....Ewwww....TMI! Cliff is definately not pretty enough for me to even try to visualize that!

Cliff, you are the proud owner of a primo brand spankin' new SawStop! I am not privy to how much time you have at a table saw. I must assume from the threads you author, not a great amount. Go log some hours on the SS! Gain some insight. With all of SawStop's safety appliances properly installed, there is no possible way you can be in harms way! OJT is better than book learnin' (or thread-readin') any ol' day! ENJOY!

[Joe Wiliams]

Let's just go ahead and concede that I'm a total moron who juggles live toasters in the bathtub.
:)
Be careful... you may trip over the cords!:eek:

[Rod Sheridan]

Not sure why not if the teeth rotating upwards cannot contact the stock.
Here 2 pics of a kick back I had. I didn't have the splitter installed on my then PM66 or or I should have used my CC sled the peice was maybe 4x6. My right thigh took the impact it came up over the top of the blade. My right leg was several inches to the left of the blade. My thigh was black/blue/yellow you name for 3 weeks

139119

Dan, glad to hear that you always use your splitter now, smart man.

I think one of the problems with your original accident was also that the piece was too small to be ripped on the TS. (If I understand correctly, it was 4" X 6", much too small to be ripped.)

regards, Rod.

[Dan Lee]

Dan, glad to hear that you always use your splitter now, smart man.

I think one of the problems with your original accident was also that the piece was too small to be ripped on the TS. (If I understand correctly, it was 4" X 6", much too small to be ripped.)

regards, Rod.
Absolutely correct should have used crosscut sled. I now have a SS with riving knife and a great gaurd.

PS The accident did not motivate the SS purchase

[Alan Schwabacher]

Here's how I'd look at it. You can clearly learn to rip with the blade on either side. But what are you trying to do while ripping?

Control the stock, keeping it tight against the fence, while looking mostly at the point where it touches the fence in front. Push the stock through the blade, while keeping hands away from the blade. How does the side of the fence you use affect these things?

To best see the spot where stock touches the fence, your head must be on that side of the fence. Besides seeing, you are pushing the stock into the fence, and most find pushing easier and more controllable than pulling. (I suppose that might not be true for those who use Japanese handtools.) I usually brace my left hand so it can't slip into the blade, and make sure the right also would not go into the blade if the stock were to slip or disappear. Ripping wide stock would be very awkward if I were reaching over it to pull it to the blade. I'd guess that those who use this approach handle wide stock differently from narrow.

You are likely to be more aware of where your dominant hand is (usually right) than the other, so if that one is closer to the blade, it might be easier to prevent the other from accidentally approaching it. I don't want to get out of the way of kickback by making it more likely, and increasing the chance of my hand going into the blade.