Best Japanese dovetail saw for the money?

[James Taglienti]

Hi guys. Since i swear by my western style tool i am lost on this point! My wife wants a Japanese style dovetail saw, something with a veeeeery fine kerf. She doesn't like using push saws and prefers the pull-cut because it is less physically demanding. But i don't even know where to start. I have a couple of japanese style saws but one is too big, and the other lacks a back. i would like to get her one in the $30 - 60 range. Sure, a custom samurai master forged one would be sweet but i just can't do it.
also she is dovetailing black walnut, a lot of it, if that makes a difference.

[Richard Magbanua]

Have you looked at the Irwin dovetail/flush cut saw at HD? It's only about 10 bucks and some people swear by it. Japanese saws can be nice because even the cheap ones perform well.

[James Taglienti]

yes, i had an irwin like that but it started stripping teeth in white oak... then it vanished and a pile of little card scrapers showed up in the shop (weird?) ...
i also had an irwin combination pull saw and it worked wonderfully. i noticed that the teeth were hardened on the little backsaw though. maybe too hard.

[Mike Null]

I use a saw called a Dozuki which is a little longer than I would like but it still works well. It has a support on the back of the blade.

Here's one at Rockler a little shorter than mine.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1062&source=googlelps

[Michael B Clark]

Christopher Schwarz recently talked about how white oak eats these saws and I've experienced the same thing. He recommended one of Lee Valley's saws.

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Japanese+Saw+Vs+White+Oak.aspx

[Jon Toebbe]

I've been really pleased with the "Z-Saws" sold by Tashiro Hardware. They're inexpensive, but not cheap -- they cut wonderfully. Since you're getting it as a gift for your wife, Tashiro also sells the blade holders so you can make a custom handle if the usual rattan-wrapped handle doesn't float her boat.

They're an excellent value. As for stripping teeth: I've never had a problem in (red) oak or cherry. You just have to go gently -- force a Western saw and it might kink; force a Japanese saw and it'll be toothless p.d.q. Even with a very light touch, they'll cut quickly and cleanly.

[Chris Vandiver]

Go to www.hidatool.com (http://www.hidatool.com). Then go to their woodworking page and then go to saws. From there you can find the Mitsukawa rip dozuki for hardwood. Very good saw for the money. Mitsukawa also makes a dozuki crosscut for hardwoods. It is also a very good tool for the money. You won't strip the teeth on these saws. These saws are re-sharpenable. You won't be disappointed.

Chris

[Wilbur Pan]

[Edit: forgot to answer the original question.]

Besides the Mitsukawa saws, Hida Tool also carries the Gyokucho #311 and #370 saws, about $30 and $50 respectively, both of which I've used in hardwoods with good results.

Conventional wisdom holds that Japanese saws shouldn't be used on hardwoods, especially ring porous woods. Christopher Schwarz even posted about this recently in the Woodworking Magazine blog, as Michael mentioned. This piece of conventional wisdom is not exactly true. What is true is that Japanese saws that are readily available in the US are not ideal for hardwoods and ring porous woods.

There are things you can do to a Japanese saw to optimize the saw for use in hardwoods. What is done for the crosscut teeth is to make the crosscut teeth less tall compared to what we typically see in a Japanese saw, and that the very top edge of the crosscut tooth is not as pointy. Here's a diagram that will hopefully make this a little more clear. Just pay attention to the lower diagram.
http://www.dougukan.jp/en/uploads/syokai/noko0002.jpg

On my saw, the top edge of the tooth (the uwa-me) is shorter than a ryoba set up for softwoods. By making the tooth less tall, and by shortening up the bevel of the top edge of the tooth, the crosscut teeth are made stronger for use in hardwoods, so you avoid breaking teeth. For softwoods, the gullets between teeth are deeper, to help aid in clearing sawdust, and the top edge is made longer and pointier, which helps slice through the softwood fibers.

On the rip side, the rake angle is relaxed a bit, again compared to what we typically see in a Japanese saw.

If you think that this is all some weird Asian woodworking mumbo-jumbo, Ron Herman said at WIA that the same type of adjustments were made for western saws for use in softwoods and hardwoods, and he's gone on record as saying that he doesn't like Japanese saws at all.

Japanese woodworkers had to use their tools in hardwoods. Japanese furniture makers used a variety of hardwoods in their work. There are Japanese species of elm, chestnut, ash, and mulberry that are used in furniture making. Yew, although a softwood, was pretty hard to work with. Also, Japanese woodworkers imported tropical rosewoods for furniture making as well. In addition, Japanese oak is uniformly used to make Japanese planes and Japanese chisel handles. It's true that Japanese woodworking uses a lot of softwoods, but my feeling is that it's no more true to say Japanese woodworking is done in softwood than it is to characterize western woodworkers as using softwoods because a lot of pine furniture was made in the past.

The problem is, with very few exceptions it's difficult to get a Japanese saw set up for hardwoods from any tool maker or seller in North America. The conventional wisdom of Japanese saws not being suitable for hardwoods and ring porous woods would be like faulting a mortise chisel that came from the manufacturer with with a 25º bevel for losing its edge too quickly while chopping a mortise in hard maple. If Japanese saws that were properly set up for use in hardwoods were more available in the US, I bet this would not be so much of an issue.

Finally, here are some examples of what you can do with a little 210mm ryoba in white oak. I haven't lost any teeth doing this, but this saw was tuned for North American hardwoods using the methods I mentioned above.

Crosscutting 4/4 white oak:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_a3R4RhWn1Is/S0FlU0Kc4YI/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6uwlXwmtyNY/s800/IMG_3394.JPG

Crosscutting 8/4 white oak:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2744167023_8a8fbf7777.jpg

Dovetail cuts in white oak:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3263/2744166899_6a8a09f9eb.jpg

Resawing (!) 8/4 white oak:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2744166753_946ea5f5c4.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2745003388_13584234e9.jpg

[Barry Vabeach]

James, Japan Woodworker has a number of saws in your price range. http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=18%2E150%2E0&dept_id=13085
The 6 inch dovetail has a kerf less than 0.011".

[Pam Niedermayer]

I have personally cut a lot of dovetails with the LV Professional Dozuki, $56+, and very fast cutter.

Another that was recommended by Rob Lee is the Japanese Rip-Tooth Dozuki, $61+.

Both of these can be linked to at LV Dozuki (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42898&cat=1,42884).

I'm not pointing to any of the hand made due to your expense limitation.

Pam

[James Taglienti]

thanks for all your input yall,
i don't think my wife (pamela) really wants a rip tooth, she is always reaching for the crosscut saws, because she finds them easier to start and to control. also she likes a finer tooth than usual, slower and cleaner cut. so can you use a crosscut saw to "rip" hardwoods without any tooth loss?

[Wilbur Pan]

You sure can. Most of the saws that have been mentioned in this thread are crosscut -- at least the Japanese version of a crosscut saw, which is a little different from a western crosscut saw. The only thing you'll find is that using a crosscut dozuki to make a rip cut will be a bit slower than using a saw with rip teeth.

[Casey Gooding]

I like the "Z" saw, also. It's a smoother, better quality cut than a lot of the Japanese saws I've tried. It's also not very expensive and replacement blades are readily available.

[James Taglienti]

Thank you very much guys, and Wilbur thanks for the tutorial that was awesome. Better than a cup of coffee this morning. I think I will go price some saws now!

[Marvin Paisner]

The Nakaya D-210C with a blade thickness of 0.2mm and 36 teeth in 30 mm (32 tpi) is a very nice saw. I have had good service from mine.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Came across a great deal from a great seller today, five hand made Mitsukawa saws for $240. It may still be too much, but it's a great deal. PM me if you want the link.

Pam

[GORDON THOMAS]

Wilbur:

curious who the ryoba sawmaker is. Also, is this handmade,or, made by a machine?

best wishes,

Gordon

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Gordon,

It's a handmade ryoba, made by a sawmaker named Heiji. You can get these through www.japan-tool.com. This saw is really great.