Question on Cherry wood

[John Miliunas]

So I already know that Cherry darkens with age. I also know you can give it a "suntan" to accelerate that process even before you start building. But my question is, does anyone know if the sapwood in a piece of Cherry will also darken? :confused: If so, any idea how it would compare to the "regular" part of the wood? :cool:

[Bob Smalser]

I use lye to age cherry successfully but find it doesn't reduce the stark contrast of sapwood....you have to dye or stain the sapwood seperately.

Age the cherry with lye before you dye the sapwood to match.

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for the quick reply, Bob! :) That's what I kinda' figured, but thought I should double-check with the Pro's here at SMC! OK, now that we know that, what would the preferred way of coloring the sapwood for a closer match; The dye or stain? :cool:

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

As already mentioned, the sapwood will always stand out if left alone. I used some WATCO cherry on a piece once with sapwood and it was a disaster. I've just learned to use the sapwood for accent in the piece, and even go out of my way to do so. If you're going to end up dyeing cherry, you might as well save some money and use birch.

KC

[John Miliunas]

I'm thinking I'll have to do some mock-ups and see what it looks like. I've never been real big on staining any wood, as I appreciate the beauty of each species. LOML has literally *forced* color changes on me, but even she's coming around to my way of thinking. :) Thanks for the suggestions, gents! :cool:

[Mac McAtee]

A water or alcohol base dye will work much better than a stain. You can then tweak the color of the sap wood.

You mix the dye to be a weaker or lighter color than the natural wood when it is fully darkened. Keep in mind that the heart wood will darken considerably and the sap wood with dye on it will stay the same till death do us part.

Try sun darkening the piece and then figure it will get darker yet in a month or two of use. Then dye the sap wood to that tint. If you mix the dye lighter than the finished tint then you apply multi coats until you reach the color saturation that you want.

[Donnie Raines]

I would suggest the following: If you would prefer that there not be a color variance from the sap wood to the heartwood, simply choose boards that dont have sapwood. DUHHHH.....ok...I know that was an obvious one. But to try to blend sapwood in with heartwood is never going to work. Today it may look nice, but give it a few months(maybe even weeks depending on where it is located) and you will begin to see the diffrence.

What you can do is buy thicker boards that have the figure or grain or color that you like....that has some sap along one edge...and resaw that out and use it for panels, table tops or whatever. When you book match the boards to have the sapwood line up in the center it really can add a nice touch to an item. Maybe the sapwood when book matched has some neat wavy pattern to it or something that makes it a one of a kind. What you want to stay away from are boards that have a large % of sap on one face. These boards can be very unstable and cup toward the sap side.

[Jim Becker]

Donnie has the right answer. No matter what you do to color the sap (which does not materially darken from oxidation and UV) at some point it will be "different" than the heartwood in color. Either use the sapwood as a statement in your work and highlight it or eliminate it. Granted, this is not as easy as you may want it to be as some suppliers of cherry have great difficulty in supplying sap-free material. And do remember when you are milling wood that has sap "on the back" that the back gets closer as you take more stuff off. This is the one case where you may need to be more uneven in your milling to preserve the heart face at the expense of additional stickering and acclimation in the shop before assembling your project.

[Bob Smalser]

There are few color variations in wood that can't be hidden permanently with dye, stain and finish.

Just use a UV-resistant topcoat to minimize fading.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_RestoringVarnish.htm

Before:

http://www.cianperez.com/Photo/Exposed/album_Smalser/images/Smalser_Images_RestoringVarnish/Smalser_RestoringVarnish_001.jpg

After:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/48013955.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3866245/70170613.jpg

[Donnie Raines]

There are few color variations in wood that can't be hidden permanently with dye, stain and finish.

Just use a UV-resistant topcoat to minimize fading.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_RestoringVarnish.htm
Nice link Bob!..

I have used an application simliar to that to accomplish the same thing. Have you had any luck in offsetting the long terms effects of sapwood to heartwood with application?

[Bob Smalser]

Use a UV-resistant, renewable finish....that way the piece can build that priceless age patina and never lose it to the ravages of stripping.

Renewable finishes include most polymerized oil preparations like Formby's Tung, Truoil, Linspeed, and others. The ones designed for gunstocks have UV inhibitors. Avoid the ones mixed with poly because they may chip in a highly built up finish...plus poly is a bugaboo to get off without losing your filler and stain, let alone the patina.

If you like poly...I don't, mostly because of its lack of warmth...there are several poly spar varnishes out there that will prevent fading in sunlight without the softness of traditional alkyd spar.

[Keith Christopher]

I hope no one gets offended but I do still recommend

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

for finishing ideas. This is not to say anyone here can't answer your questions, but man those folks over there live and breathe the stuff. It is moderated by Jeff Jewitt who also owns the company. I am in no way affiliated with Jeff or Homesteadfinishing, I have just found the knowledge on finishing there excellent.

[Chris Padilla]

John,

Unless you have your heart set on the piece of cherry you found, find another piece. That, or as Donnie stated quite well, incorporate the sap into your project. This will stick out like a sore thumb everytime you look at it because it just won't turn out right unless you practice and experiment quite a bit and even then, who knows about the ravages of time.

[John Miliunas]

Thanks for all the suggestions, hints and tips! :) Man, there really ARE a bunch of ways to skin a cat, ain't there?! I'm thinking that I'll go through my stash and try to keep as much sapwood out of there as I can. I got a lot of the Cherry at some nice prices, but that's the reason I also have a fair amount of sapwood, I guess. :( Think I will try something to help "age" it a bit, though. Where in the heck does one get lye and isn't that some pretty dangerous schtuff to work with? :cool:

[Jim Becker]

Ya know, John, some makers embraced sap in their work. George Nakashima is a good example. In the Nakashima Reading Room at the nearby Michener Museum, there are a number of natural edge shelving units made of cherry that incorporates both the heart and sap. I've also seen some interesting contemporary pieces done that way...you see it often with things made of cedar, as a matter of fact. But then again, you rarely see sap in fine furniture. I don't prefer it myself and try to choose lumber that is either clear or has minimal sap on the back. But you never know...I may make a piece one of these days that has a bit o' creame in it!

[John Miliunas]

Yeah Jim, I think I'd be very tempted at incorporating it into a nice piece. The thing here is that, this particular Cherry is destined for window and door molding! I think we need consistency for stuff like that. Plus, it now appears that the LOML would like a "stripe" of Maple inlay, as well! :rolleyes: I've got a shop full of tools, so I'd better give her what she wants! :cool:

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

John, you can get Lye at Wal Mart. I have the LOML pick up a small jar of Red Devil Lye about 6 months ago. It is in the drain cleaner area, because that is what it is marketed for. I used about 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. in a cup of water just to try it for darkening Cherry. Man, it works like magic! Lye can be nasty stuff, so take all the precautionary steps when handling it. It comes in a granular form, and I mixed mine outdoors. Just add the Lye to some water, stir and you are ready to go. Wear eye protection.........Goggles are best, and rubber, latex or nitrile gloves when mixing and applying. You can vary the darkening affect of the Lye by the concentration you are using. Trust me, it don't take much to get the job done. Ace Karner turned me on to this technique, and the result is instant..................just like Magic! ;)

[Dennis Peacock]

Hey John,

You could always paint it a cherry color.! :p :p :D

You have enough help in this thread already, so my 2¢ worth won't add any more to the confusion. :D BUT.....if it were me, I'd try to eliminate the sapwood by using another piece of cherry with little to no sapwood.

[John Miliunas]

John, you can get Lye at Wal Mart. I have the LOML pick up a small jar of Red Devil Lye about 6 months ago. It is in the drain cleaner area, because that is what it is marketed for. I used about 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. in a cup of water just to try it for darkening Cherry. Man, it works like magic! Lye can be nasty stuff, so take all the precautionary steps when handling it. It comes in a granular form, and I mixed mine outdoors. Just add the Lye to some water, stir and you are ready to go. Wear eye protection.........Goggles are best, and rubber, latex or nitrile gloves when mixing and applying. You can vary the darkening affect of the Lye by the concentration you are using. Trust me, it don't take much to get the job done. Ace Karner turned me on to this technique, and the result is instant..................just like Magic! ;)

Thanks for that bit of info, Kev! :) That, of course, leads to more questions. (Dang, my "newbie" status is really showing now! :o )Do you just slop it on with a brush or rag? Do you do like stain and slop it on/wipe it off?
Then, is there anything you do to neutralize it? Or, do you just let it dry for a day or two? Regular finishing techniques after? On Cherry, I typically prefer Velvit oil, followed by some form a clear. May try spraying these with water-based lacquer. Thanks again for all the valuable info!

Oh, and Dennis, minimizing the sapwood is probably what I'm going to try and do! :cool:

[Jim Becker]

John, I believe (but cannot confirm) that Jeff Jewitt's book(s) cover chemical "staining", including use of Lye or Potassium Dichromate to darken cherry.