Titebond III Failure

[Tom Winship]

I am not sure if this is the correct forum or not, but I have had a couple of glue failures with TBIII.
We have had some fairly cold weather (for us) here in Central Texas over the last month. I edge glued some oak, and was cutting a DT on one of the pieces when the joint failed. The joint looked kind of funny (chalky?)

Yesterday I glued a piece of mesquite which had failed along a crack. After leaving it overnight (about 15 hours of clamp time), when I removed the clamps, it very easily failed again with just putting light hand pressure on it. The temperature here yesterday was around 60, and maybe got down to 50 overnight.

My question is:
1. Do you think my glue failures are due to the cold weather?
2. If TBIII sees temperatures below freezing, does that ruin it?
3. What do you guys up north with no heat in your shop, do with your glue; take it inside at night?

I appreciate all input in advance.

Tom

[David Gendron]

Tom, I read some where,( FWW, Feb.2010 No.210) that Tite Bond III is good down to 47 degres, and Gorilla down to 40. but I dont know if it is affected by freezing. Is you glue old, like more than a year or two? I also read some where that old glue some time don't perform as supposed, if the consistency is not even or have some lumps or granuls like stuf in it!?!

[Roy Wall]

TiteBond III will adhere down to 47*......no lower.

A general rule of thumb is glue has a shelf life of 1 year, but it certainly can go longer (my guess is at least another 6 months+) if kept inside your home. When you buy a bottle of glue write the mm/yy on the bottle with a Sharpie. I always keep my glue inside the house.

Chalky type residue.........certainly seems like the glue is bad or got too cold.

[Jeff Hallam]

I have used titebond III for outdoor projects here in Nova Scotia, and we have plenty of freeze/thaw cycles. I haven't had issues so far. It sounds to me like the conditions aren't right for the glue to set up properly, or that the bottle of glue froze during storage at some point. I would contact the company as I'm sure they would be the best diagnosticians (is that a word?)

[Jim Koepke]

I have had problems if the glue freezes or gets too cold before use.

I have many things that once glued the cold does not bother them.

During the cold season, the glue and the gluing come into the house where it is much warmer than my shop.

I can and have worked in the shop with the temp in the teens. Even epoxy slows at those temps.

jim

[Tom Winship]

Just read on TB's site that it shouldn't hurt it to freeze. Think I will throw it out and use another bottle.
They also refer to a "chalk temperature" of 47 F. Don't know what that means.

[Bob Barkto]

A chalky appearance indicates the glue got too cold during use (chalk temperature).

Titebond can tolerate some freeze/thaw cycles in storage. As long as the glue looks and smells normal it is ok. Goes for age, too. If it appears normal, it's useable.
If it's clumpy, stringy or has changed color or smells rancid it's time to trash it.
With TB3 you can get some thickening if it's been sitting for a while. Mix it by shaking or stirring and it should return to normal. If it stays thick or clumpy it's gone bad.

[Robert Parrish]

Tom, I just had a failure yesterday with TB III. I was gluing 2" pieces of Purple Heart and it separated at the seam.

[Tom Winship]

Sorry Gents, it was TB II (the blue label). Don't know if that changes much except the minimum temperature is 55 F, instead of 47 F.
I just reglued the piece using a different, older bottle of TB II. I will report back.

[Ed Griner]

How old (for sure)was the glue? Titebond,all types is pretty good stuff.

Ed







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[Erik Manchester]

Tom,

As a general rule I have always been told to avoid freezing any glues or finishes, although I know certain types can tolerate the freezing. I know from personal experience that TB III will not fail due to cold or moisture once it has cured. My cedar benches are going on 5 yrs without a wiggle and there are no screws in them.

Suggest that you get fresh glue and keep the temps up until the glue has fully cured.

Good luck

Erik

[Bob Smalser]

3. What do you guys up north with no heat in your shop, do with your glue; take it inside at night?


Buy an old electric blanket from Goodwill, and use it to keep your glueups at 70 degrees F or warmer overnight. A sheet of plastic in between works as a slipsheet to protect the blanket.

And a simple drying box heated by a hundred-watt light bulb serves as a place to protect sensitive shop supplies from freezing in an unheated shop, as well as a place to cure finishes on small items.

Also consider using more appropriate glues like UF plastic resin or hot hide glue for traditional work. Unlike modern aliphatics, both are easily reglued when your work is restored long after you are gone, and neither is prone to either creeping under load or interfering with staining. That so many go to so much trouble dimensioning and joining stock by traditional methods then follow up by using glues designed for cheap throwaways is an irony worth rethinking.

Are Your Glue Joints Repairable?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822

[Tom Winship]

[QUOTE=Ed Griner;1315052]How old (for sure)was the glue? Titebond,all types is pretty good stuff.

Ed

I have had it less than 3 months. Got it at a box store. Don't know how long they have had it.

[Ed Griner]

Tom, Maybe to minimize guessing, you could bring the wood and the glue inside for a day or two before final glue up. Good Luck/Ed

[Bob Strawn]

I have had the same experience. I like Tightbond II, Tightbond III has failed on me and ruined some fairly nice precision work and some fairly expensive wood. Even when it fails, it makes wood impossible to glue, so failure is a real nightmare. Because I don't know what the results of Tightbond III will be, and because two out of three bottles were bad, I have no trust for them. It expires, they know it expires, and there is no date readily visible when I buy it?

That said, if you are making a table for gluing up, or want to protect wooden clamps used for gluing, take advantage of the gluing properties of Tightbond II. Dilute it 1 part of glue to three parts water and paint wooden surfaces that you want to be immune to glue. It makes a really tough, off yellow finish, that survives weather and resists glue. I wax it just to be sure, but then it seems to be the easiest surface to remove glue from that I have found.

Bob Smalser's article, the one he mentions here, is one of the best and most important articles on glue behavior that I have read. Since I read his article, I have switched to epoxies for most weather resistant work, and Resorcinol (http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Weldwood-Resorcinol-Structural-Adhesive-p117.html) for joints that had to be as strong as I could possibly make them.

I still love hide glue the best, instant gluing, drawing in and tightening, and unmatched ability to remove and reglue.

Bob

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

This yankee brings his glue inside for the winter months, and takes it out when needed. Never had a problem with it stored indoors, and yes, I have had PVA glues ruined by freezing before.

[Leo Graywacz]

Chalky appearance means it was too cold. Plain and simple. This is why it failed. Do your gluing above 60. If it can make it an hour it will survive colder temps (PVA).

[Michael Gibbons]

Toss it. A new bottle is $10 bucks?

[Bob Strawn]

I cannot be sure that Tom's problems with the glue are the same as mine, but freezing was definitly not an issue. Any freezing of glue for me, happened before it got into my hands. The glue in one bottle of tightbond iii was chalky, the other bad bottle appeared fine, but the glue sort of curdled when I used it. I have probably gone through 30 bottles of Tightbond ii with no problems.

I am trying out a new glue, that looks like it is going to be a winner. The stuff is called Ecopoxy (http://www.ecopoxysystems.com/) and so far it is looking good. I need to give my tests a few more months before I start celebrating, but the stuff is quite a bit more pleasant to work with than any other epoxy I have used, and it has an unlimited shelf life. It is also food safe for direct contact and is rated for potable water storage. The only downside to this epoxy, as far as I have been able to find, is the BPA issue.

Bob

[Bob Barkto]

FWIW the information I posted came directly from the manufacturer of Titebond adhesives.
It matches my experience too.



Sorry Gents, it was TB II (the blue label). Don't know if that changes much except the minimum temperature is 55 F, instead of 47 F.
I just reglued the piece using a different, older bottle of TB II. I will report back.

[kramer jones]

I can't get back to check right now but I posted a "bargain alert" over on the BT3k site a few weeks ago on TBIII at HF. Some one replied with a decoding of the bottle date codes. I think it was A,B,C, for the month and two digits for the year the glue was filled. And the shelf life was given as One Year.

[Bill Arnold]

The Titebond date code is on the bottle. If there's no code visible, don't buy it! The code on the bottles I've seen is 6 characters but only the first two signify the date of manufacture. The first is a number corresponding to the last digit of the year. The second is a letter for the month; A=Jan, B=Feb, etc., with the exception that "I" is not used since it looks like a "1". For instance, 9M=2009Dec.

[Tom Winship]

After all is said and done, the failure was due to temperature I am sure. I reglued the failed joint the next day when temperatures were in the low 50's and it did better, but still failed with a little hand pressure. We had temperatures in the 70's this week and I reglued a third time. It has held. So the really mean what they say on the bottle. Wonder if that is true with medicines also?

[Rick Erickson]

Wonder if that is true with medicines also?

I've taken 2-year old Tylenol to sooth a headache after a bad day in the shop and it worked. If course I took it at room temperatue :-)

[Julian Nicks]

Glue ups need to happen in warmer weather plain and simple. I use titebond daily and have literally gone through hundreds of gallons of it. I advise against using it if it has frozen solid. It's not worth ruining a project due to glue failure when it could have been avoided by spending $5 on a new bottle. I also say that if it's a project that is going indoors do not use tb3. You'll end up getting glue creep from it. I used it on a few tabletops and the joints actually moved after a few months indoors creating a raised line in the top along the seam. It doesn't happen with tb1 or 2.

[Bob Strawn]

The Titebond date code is on the bottle. If there's no code visible, don't buy it! The code on the bottles I've seen is 6 characters but only the first two signify the date of manufacture. The first is a number corresponding to the last digit of the year. The second is a letter for the month; A=Jan, B=Feb, etc., with the exception that "I" is not used since it looks like a "1". For instance, 9M=2009Dec.

Thank you for that data! Now I am willing to try using Titebond III again. My suspicion is that the exact opposite heat related issue may have caused the problems I have faced. In a container or truck left for a few days in the Texas sun, all sorts of cooking can go on. Since I have not had any issues with Tightbond II, it may be that the newer formula is not as heat resistant while still in the bottle.

Bob