Bad accident leads to my new Sawstop

[Cliff Holmes]

I got a call from a fellow wedding photographer's wife this morning. I don't know him, but she's calling every local photographer looking for someone to cover her husband's upcoming weddings.

Apparently he works during the week doing some kind of work building high-end kitchens. I didn't get (nor did I want) the gory details, but apparently someone dropped or knocked over some plywood or sheetrock or something, hitting him in the back, forcing his hand into a spinning tablesaw blade. His index and middle fingers were completely severed, the thumb mostly, and the outlook for saving them is bleak. And a photographer who can't grasp or manipulate a camera isn't too effective.

So, even though I think the Sawstop isn't that much better a saw than my Grizzly, I'm picking up my new PCS in the morning. I realized that losing a single wedding would cost me more than the Sawstop would.

[Dan Friedrichs]

This is an interesting story, Cliff - rarely does anyone consider that, if they work around others, their safety is not solely in their own control. You could be the safest TS user in the world, but if someone wacks you with a 2x4 while you're using it...

[Phil Phelps]

Ya' know Cliff, I said something along those lines a few months ago and you'd have thought I personally insulted everyone on this forum. I've spent a lifetime around saws and haven't lost a finger. I'm just lucky. Sawstop is a great investment, especially when using hired help.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Yikes!! That's a really crappy way to have an accident....but, I guess there is always a chance of it happening. My brother had a TS accident on the jobsite because someone plugged in back in while he was changing the blade on it. A few surgeries and PT later it's a 'lot' better, but still not 100%. There were a lot of factors to my decision to go with a SS, and that was definitely one of them. Another was a coworker of mine that had a TS accident all on his own (he didn't have "help"). He was very good, very experience, but now can only count to 8.5 using his fingers.

You'll have to let us know how the SS compares against your Grizz.

Edit - just realized you mentioned a PCS. Hope you like it!

[Victor Robinson]

Having spent several years running a wedding photography studio (turned that back into a hobby recently and am happier for it!), I can't believe you didn't jump on a SS sooner, Cliff!

Besides, you need more fingers nowadays with all the buttons they're putting on them picture-taking-thingies. :cool:

[Michael Schwartz]

I work alone in a rural area 30 miles from the nearest hospital so that alone was enough to convince me to buy a Sawstop.

Sorry to hear about your friends accident.

[Cliff Holmes]

you need more fingers nowadays with all the buttons they're putting on them picture-taking-thingies

You got that right. We shoot with Nikon D3s. I counted once, there are over thirty different buttons, knobs, sliders, and other adjustments, not to mention the dozens of choices in the menu system.

[Richard Wolf]

Okay, let's hear from all the people that don't need a Saw Stop because "they know how to work safely".

Richard

[Paul Ryan]

As an auto mechanic I didn't know what I would ever do if I lost a finger or more than likely a couple fingers. I had thought about SS over and over but couldn't justify the expense. I went into a tool store one day and got to chatting with an old timer. He had just purchased a ICS saw and showed me his hand that was all bandaged up. He went on to saw he had been wood working for 40 years and never had an accident. A couple of weeks prior he was changing the alternator on his car and needed a prying device to tighten the belt. He went to his table saw to cut a piece of lumber quick. He had gloves on never took them off, some how they got caught on the wood and sucked his hand into the blade. He said you know it just took that one split second stupid choice and he lost 2 1/2 fingers. 2 weeks later I heard about the PCS saw and I bought one. I still think it is a no brainer if can remotly afford it. With young ones growing up and being young myself I feel much better having this saw.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Okay, let's hear from all the people that don't need a Saw Stop because "they know how to work safely".

Richard


My first thought too, but......let's keep this about one woodworker's choice in his tools....too many threads already exist on the SS/ant-SS argument.

[Jerome Hanby]

This is a great post. Like someone said, you can be the safest woodworker in the world and still get nailed by something like this. I may have to rethink the Sawstop.

[Mike Henderson]

My opinion is that you have to look at the extra cost of a SawStop as insurance cost. You hope you never need the fire insurance on your home, but you buy it because if you do have a fire, the loss is catastrophic. Same with your fingers.

Mike

[Glen Butler]

Now this thread makes me more of a believer in saw stop. You do never know when something beyond your control will take your hand. This thread made me think of the large stacks of sheet goods that lean against the wall behind me when I use the table saw, and if something happened that caused one to tip . . . i.e. a warped sheet, and a draft. I have been watching the videos of the ICS, and looks like a great machine. I can only dream now, and pray nothing happens between now and the day I can afford a SS.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Congrats on your purchase. Let us know how it compares to your Grizz.

Sorry to hear about your friends accident.

[Peter Aeschliman]

This is one reoccurring argument that I will never understand.

Each person has his or her own level of risk aversion. If somebody wants to buy a sawstop because he/she is more risk averse than you are, who on earth cares?

People almost take it personally! I don't get it at all.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Cliff Holmes;1314067]I got a call from a fellow wedding photographer's wife this morning. I don't know him, but she's calling every local photographer looking for someone to cover her husband's upcoming weddings.

QUOTE]

Jeez Cliff, from the title of your post I thought that you had an accident!

I'm glad to hear that you're OK, sorry to hear about the other person.

I think it's a great idea that you bought a SS saw, they certainly have a great safety feature, which I sincerely hope you'll never need.

Regards, Rod.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Am i the only one that doesn't know what a PCS saw is? I keep scanning through the thread in search of this...I did pick up on SS being a SawStop....

I guess I'm neutral on the SawStop debate, but if my profession required all my digits, i'd be swapping out my Uni for a SS pretty quickly.

[Michael Schwartz]

To each his own. We have all heard the arguments many times but regardless of what equipment we use, we have all made our own choices and should all be proud of them.

Woodworking is inherently dangerous just is about anything "fun" in life. Proper Safety techniques, Guarding, can and will minimize those risks greatly.

Even with my Sawstop I observe proper technique because you shouldn't need to trip the safety mechanism anyway. I agree with that part, and I didn't buy one with the intent to need it, and I certainly hope I never have to trip it.

I made the choice to buy a Sawstop as have many others, but before I owned one I owned a Jet cabinet saw. I have worked with Unisaws, Powermatic's, Felder, Ulmia, table saws, the whole 9 yards. I like my Sawstop, but if the other guy chooses another machine I respect his choice, and he should be proud of it, just as I am proud of my Sawstop.

If you own a Ford truck, you should respect your neighbors Chevy :D

[Michael Schwartz]

Am i the only one that doesn't know what a PCS saw is? I keep scanning through the thread in search of this...I did pick up on SS being a SawStop....

I guess I'm neutral on the SawStop debate, but if my profession required all my digits, i'd be swapping out my Uni for a SS pretty quickly.


The PCS stands for Professional cabinet saw which is a scaled down version of the ICS or industrial cabinet saw.

[Dirk Lewis]

I was about to berate you for using Nikon.

:D

made me chuckle Victor - good one!

[Cliff Holmes]

I was about to berate you for using Nikon.

Oh Lord, not a Nikon-vs-Canon flame war ... :rolleyes:

[Dave Lehnert]

Safety feature aside. The SawStop is considered a great saw.

congratulations on your new saw.

[Michael Schwartz]

Oh Lord, not a Nikon-vs-Canon flame war ... :rolleyes:

Call the Police :D

[Cliff Holmes]

I'm guessing the guard wasn't in place. A crummy table saw with the guard in place might have prevented this.

Yeah, I really don't know. I'm not even sure he was the one running the saw.

[gary butcher]

i can't afford a sawstop so I just stopped using my TS, thing scares the crap out of me to be honest. I'd rather use a circular saw or bandsaw. Luckily I don't often need to chop up big bits of wood.

[Cliff Holmes]

i can't afford a sawstop so I just stopped using my TS

Maybe with a name like "butcher" that's a good idea ... :D

[Jerome Hanby]

I don't think all of that is exactly fair.

I've never

-been in a terrible car accident
-contracted food poisoning from e-coli
-had any respiration problems
-severely cut myself with a knife
-been involved in a motorcycle accident

I have (and I think almost everyone else has too) had an accident where some unexpected chain of events caused a problem. I'm not going to run out and dig myself deeper in debt buying a Sawstop Tonight, but I'm sure as heck going to do a little triage around my table saw before I fire it up again. My point is that I didn't see the value (for me) in the safety features of a Sawstop. I honestly think it would serve to make me less cautious and that could rub off on operations with other equipment. After reading the initial post in this thread, I can see how the safety features could be a real life saver if you get blind sided while the saw is running.


And then don't forget to:
-buy the best car that has all the safety bells and whistles
-grow your own food so you don't get a bad batch of e. coli
-live in your bubble house so you don't breath bad air
-throw out all your cooking knives (unless you're one of those "know how to work safely" types)
-laugh at anyone foolish enough to buy a motorcycle or bike while driving around in your armored fortress

So to the OP, when you hear of someone dying in a car accident do you start looking for a Volvo. Semi truck to the driver's door would do a number on the the shutter finger.

Where does this all stop?

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

If you own a Ford truck, you should respect your neighbors Chevy :D

OK, that might be going a bit too far....LOL.

Seriously...well said. I hope everyone that bought a Grizzly or PM or Uni or Jet or any TS, all enjoy their purchases, whatever their particular rationale was. And I hope no one has to go through a terrrible accident.

[Gary Herrmann]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Cliff. Good for you that you made the decision to go with the PCS.

Several years ago I bought my General 650. I really like that saw. I did consider the SS at that time, but couldn't afford it.

I haven't had an accident with my TS, but I still think about the SS.

[tyler mckenzie]

Oh Lord, not a Nikon-vs-Canon flame war ... :rolleyes:

Long time nikon user, converted... to canon, and 4x5.... eee-gad,

Delta 12" invicta ts user thinking about moving over to a SS, even though i have a one man shop..


Tyler
http://tealandgold.blogspot.com/

[John Sanford]

Congrats on the purchase, new tools are always a reason for celebration. As for the motivating event, that's something of an eye opener, sort of a twisted, nasty domino theory, or something from the 3 Stooges, only with real harm.

Risk tolerance/aversion/seeking/avoidance is a personal thing, but one thing Cliff said is often glossed over.


I figure my net cost to upgrade will be around $2500. Well, for me, that's almost a trivial expense.

For many folks, it's not a trivial expense. The non-triviality of the expense is a real factor, both in their cost/benefit calculation (which is influenced by their risk aversion), but also, I would speculate, in how they approach a thread such as this.

Were I "feeelthy rich", I'd hire a crew of engineers and fabricators to build me a Euro style table saw, with the wonderful slider, and an adaption of the SawStop. Undoubtedly, I wouldn't be able to sell such a beast (patent infringment), but I would have the bestest, safest tablesaw in the world.

I am not, however, "feelthy rich" (at least by American standards), so I'll make do for now with what I have, focus on enhancing my safety, and pencil a SawStop in for the future. Neither envy, nor scorn, nor derision, nor pity to those who choose a different path. (Okay, maybe a wee bit of envy for those who already have a SawStop, but most of that's driven by the fact that I don't have a cabinet saw at all, and even if I did, I couldn't use it in my rented townhouse.)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

[And just a bit of humor, around here we don't call them motorcycle riders - we call them future organ donors.]

I am a registered organ donor and a motorcycle rider. :)

Oh, and a Canon user. LOL I STILL have my AE-1.... Not a lot of use for it nowadays.

[John Gornall]

In the past few years almost all tablesaw accidents I have heard of were on portable tablesaws on jobsites. These saws are the most dangerous because of the way they are used. Never any guard or splitters, they do start up when the power comes on if the start button is still in. They are small and look harmless and are not treated with respect. And many workers using them have no clue about tablesaws. I suspect a large number of the saw accidents come from these. A contractor just finished renovating the bank next to my shop and I was glad he was finished as it was frightening everytime I walked by the 4 unattended portable saws on the sidewalk - all plugged in. Sawstop would do the world a favour if they would make a portable.

[Jeremy Gibson]

I have a Grizzly contractor saw that's only a few years old and has only been used a small amount. I've done some additions to it with an outfeed table and right-side router in the extention. It was an enormous upgrade from the little Craftsman portable I had and felt was a real danger to me. With the contractor saw at least I feel it's up to most tasks I've put it to thus far, although I admit I don't use the guard since the mounting is behind the table and now under the outfeed table.

Since the SS came out and has had a few years to work out any kinks I've already decided that *when* the time comes in my finances and workspace that I'm going to get a SS cabinet saw. It looks like a top notch saw comparable to a new PM or Delta Uni and I like the safety of the brake and better dust control than the contractor saw. When that will be I can't say, but it's certainly on my mental wish list.

[mreza Salav]

In the past few years almost all tablesaw accidents I have heard of were on portable tablesaws on jobsites. These saws are the most dangerous because of the way they are used. Never any guard or splitters, they do start up when the power comes on if the start button is still in. They are small and look harmless and are not treated with respect. And many workers using them have no clue about tablesaws. I suspect a large number of the saw accidents come from these. A contractor just finished renovating the bank next to my shop and I was glad he was finished as it was frightening everytime I walked by the 4 unattended portable saws on the sidewalk - all plugged in. Sawstop would do the world a favour if they would make a portable.

There is such a saw John, check this page:

http://sawstop.com/contractor/contractor_home.php

[Chris Kennedy]

It is sorry to hear about the OP's friend's accident. That's just horrible, and I hope that things work out alright in the long run.

I stopped weighing in on this issue a couple of years ago, but maybe I'll try once again. This situation, to me, is why the idea behind a SawStop is a good idea. You cannot control everything. There can always be some external issue beyond your control that can cause a hazard.

I won't ridicule someone for not buying one and I won't ridicule someone who chooses one. I can't afford a SawStop and I can't afford having any part of my hand cut off, so I'll just have to be really careful.

Cheers,

Chris

[Don Bullock]

Congratulations Cliff. I hope you enjoy using your SawStop as much as I do. While I feel very sorry for your colleague, I'm glad to see that his loss has at least lead to helping you to protect yourself. I have found that using my SawStop has made me much more aware of table saw safety that I ever was with my old Craftsman.

[Dan Mitchell]

a photographer who can't grasp or manipulate a camera isn't too effective..

I was in grad school with a guy in his late 30's who had been a dentist until he had an accident with a power tool. Off hand (you'll pardon the pun... ) I don't recall the specifics, but it ended his fairly lucrative career in dentistry.

We don't know the details here, but I can't help but wonder if this tragedy might have been avoided with the proper use of guards.

[Mike Heidrick]

Cliff, sorry to hear about your friend.

Congrats on the new saw though. You will love it.

[Don Morris]

I've said it before on a couple posts, I love my 1023SL. But as a retiree, my income is pretty fixed. If it wasn't, sure, I'd go out and get a SS. A few other things too, but we go by a budget here. LOML has input into how the $$$ gets shared. We don't go on cruises, I don't go on skiing trips, etc. I use a splitter, Grippers (2), Grip-tites, push-sticks, etc. whatever the project seems to call for that will work best. Mostly, I try to remember to ask, "is this a safe procedure". If not, I don't do it. I envy people with SS's, maybe if I win the lottery...oopppps, forgot, we don't think we can justify spending money on things like that so I won't ever win. Maybe I should cut my finger with a knife and tell LOML I did it on the 1023SL. Hey, now that's a plan...bet she'd want me to bust the budget for a SS then. Nope, she'd probably close down the shop. I'd be reduced to playing bridge.

[Glenn Clabo]

For some reason a few people just love to attack others for either purchasing a SawStop or those who don't buy one. As soon as there is a post either way...it always leads to insults and strict moderation.

This must stop.

SMC is not here for people to insult each other. It is here to have a place woodworkers can hang out without being insulted. If you disagree with a purchase and have legitimate and verifiable concerns about the product please be an adult and express your concerns in a polite manner. If you can't express your reasons for purchasing...or not...in an adult way it will be removed. If you insult another poster in anyway...you are subject to an infraction and/or removal from the ability to participate here.

I deleted insulting posts, instigating posts and answers to them. I will leave this thread open...but it is subject to immediate closing if people can't participate like adults.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Thank you Glen!

And my apologies for anything I did to 'feed the frenzy'. As I said, there are far too many threads on that topic. I hope Cliff likes his new saw.

[John Neel]

Let me add my urging to those who would like to hear a comparison of the SS to the Grizzly.

I have had the ICS SS for about a year and a half. I find that I am more careful with it than I was with my previous Dewalt portable. I read these threads and hear about how the accidents happen and with each one I read I look for additional precautions. Every time I turn the SS on I realize the need for the safety mechanism and I always think through my cuts before I make them.

The SS also makes me more careful with my bandsaw that has no SS type safety device.

I think of myself as lucky for a minor 4 stitch accident on my joiner. It was turned off, unplugged and I was simply adjusting an installed blade. The joiner was new and I was very new to anything but a handsaw or circular saw in woodworking. I was pulling the wrench in the wrong direction and when it slipped my thumb went into the blade.

I don't cut wood every day or even every week. When I do, the minor accident is always on my mind. I am retired and didn't need all my fingers for my profession, just for my life.

Whatever saw or other equipment you use, be careful. Don't let us read about your accident in one of these threads.

John

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Glenn and congratulations Cliff!

Makes me do a mental inventory on safety. Right now I have 4 band-aids on from the places the back of my hand touches the stationary belt sander. Luckily, it only takes a little at a time :rolleyes:.

[Phil Phelps]

I've said it before on a couple posts, I love my 1023SL. But as a retiree, my income is pretty fixed. If it wasn't, sure, I'd go out and get a SS. A few other things too, but we go by a budget here. LOML has input into how the $$$ gets shared. We don't go on cruises, I don't go on skiing trips, etc. I use a splitter, Grippers (2), Grip-tites, push-sticks, etc. whatever the project seems to call for that will work best. Mostly, I try to remember to ask, "is this a safe procedure". If not, I don't do it. I envy people with SS's, maybe if I win the lottery...oopppps, forgot, we don't think we can justify spending money on things like that so I won't ever win. Maybe I should cut my finger with a knife and tell LOML I did it on the 1023SL. Hey, now that's a plan...bet she'd want me to bust the budget for a SS then. Nope, she'd probably close down the shop. I'd be reduced to playing bridge.

Cliff, congrats on the new saw. May I use your post and Don's quote to give a small alternative to safety on table saws? I use WW tools in my profession. I never had any safety equipment for years. Because I sawed a lot of MDF and was always making a nasty mess, about 12 years ago I purchased the Excalibur Saw Guard and hooked it up to my dust collector. I thought it would be awfully cumbersome but it wasn't and works great for ripping all woods and MDF. I use it for dust collection but it's a wonderful safety mechanism. This won't put you in the poor house and covers two issues quite well.

[bob frost]

Was leaning to G690 , now maybe Sawstop . I like the G690 , looks like a great saw with great reviews , but I sure would like having that extra safety insurance. Its $1800.00 more but boy it might be worth it just for the added piece - of -mind. Just my thoughts presently.

[John Gornall]

That SS contractor's saw on a wheelbarrow looks like what I need.

[Dennis Peacock]

i am a registered organ donor and a motorcycle rider. :)

oh, and a canon user. Lol i still have my ae-1.... Not a lot of use for it nowadays.

+1....!!!!!! Ok.....plus 3. :)

[Don Morris]

Phil, I looked into an overhead dust collection unit for the TS. Those are a nice way of getting dust collection and adding safety at the same time. My overhead ceiling is only 7'. Made putting in an overhead unit for the TS very difficult to impossible, particularly when you wanted to do some special cutting like the eliptical piece I did a couple weeks ago that required a jig that almost went up to the ceiling. So I tried a Brett unit for Safety. That wouldn't let me cut wide pieces or narrow pieces. I seem to keep trying for safety or dust improvement, but in my small basement shop (and not the entire basement either thanks to LOML), I've gotten about as good as it's going to get...minus a SS. I have a 1100cfm mobile dust collection unit plus a fixed overhead unit, lots of 4" tubes coming from all my mobile machines (BS, DP, router, etc.) that I can connect to the 1100cfm main dust collector as needed. Probably decided wrongly, but that's what I came up with. At least that's what I'm stuck with at this point until my unknown rich relative leaves me his fortune.