Hello and some questions concerning Laser, wood and china cheapness....

[todd mckechnie]

Hello everyone ! I found this forum doing research into possibly buying a small co2 laser engraver ( china $1500 machine ) to engrave wood grips for my business.

So a few things.

1 These aren't grips that are machined in the thousands daily. I am going to say on a scale maybe 20 sets a month ( smooth no design or checkering, so I dont know if they will be more popular or less popular with the checkering ), maybe more. I just started releasing these a few months ago.

2 I use exotic woods, Coco Bolo, Ebony, Bocote, Bubinga etc for the grips.

3 I would like to checker the grips and add a logo or design possibly. ( hence the reason for me to think of having my own laser rather then farm out, to cut the cost of having single onesy projects done ).

4 I am checking into farming it out to a few locals right now. So I havent gotten solid pricing quotes back yet to figure what I am looking at.

5 I machine these out via cnc machines I own. I know I could engrave them with the CNC machine , but I am thinking the laser would be more crisp and faster. I am exploring doing it on my cnc machines as well.

6 Budget. Like everyone I have some money I can spend, but obviously dont want to spend it in a large amount if its more feasible to farm it out. I understand one less machine to maintain, one less program to figure out, one less headache when it doesnt work right. But I like the freedom to do it myself as well.

So this is what I have.

http://customizedcreationz.com/images/600_Complete_Set_of_Exotic_wood_P238_10-27-09.jpg

Here is the side view profile ( dim's arent for mine but similar enough to work with ).

http://www.woodgrips.com/thin_grips_line_drawing2.gif

http://www.marschalgrips.com/files2/Grips_in_action-models/pa63-chekmaple.jpg

I would like to checker them in simple checker such as above, or do something more with adding logos or names to them and stipling to them.

http://www.se-rc.com/images/226.jpg

I have no Corel experience. But have a very good customer that is a vinyl graphics company and does work with Corel and Photo Shop Illustrator , so I have someone that can work with me on that and understands the usage ( albeit by plotters ).

So my question is something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-LASER-ENGRAVER-40-Watts-of-CO2-Desktop-Engraving_W0QQitemZ370317738519QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5638a84217) a feasible thing to get my feet wet and experiment with this new area ? I cant afford a Epilog or more expensive unit right now. But if this takes off then its something I might consider and look at in the future.

This wont be used for much else then the grips. I am sure I ll toss a odd item or two up there, but its not that I am starting a company with this laser, I would only be using it to further a small area of the company and experiment to see if its worth while.

I did a search on here and most of the posts I saw where people contemplating starting a business with something like this or trying to get a business to "boom" thinking the laser will be the key. I am not looking at it that way. Hence the reason I dont want to spend $35,000 on a Epilog. I am heading this small area of the company into a very demanding market. Will it be demanding for me enough to make it worth my while, well thats what I am testing now and so far its going decently. Its not making drop everything else in the company, and I never expected it to. But it helps to expand what we already offer.

So bottom line, $1500 laser engraver off ebay worthwhile to test out a new area, or am I just throwing money out the window with it.

Sorry for the long first post ..... :D

[Dan Hintz]

If all you want is a simple crosshatch pattern, you may be okay with a low-end Chinese machine. If you're interested in a true 3D check pattern, you may run into more difficulties... contact James Jaragosky (if he doesn't see this thread and reply himself), as he has arguably had the most experience with the Chinese machines. The software interface for the cheap machines leaves a lot to be desired, and 3D can be difficult to master for even US-made machines that specifically support it in their drivers.

[Richard Rumancik]

Todd

Your handles look very nice. I take it that you did the shape and had someone else do the detailed engraving by CNC?

You said: "I machine these out via cnc machines I own. I know I could engrave them with the CNC machine , but I am thinking the laser would be more crisp and faster. I am exploring doing it on my cnc machines as well."

Some comments: the thicker handles will be challenging to laser as the contour of the parts will cause the laser to go out of focus. The solution might be to use a longer focal length to get more depth-of-field, but you will loose detail on the extremes of height. The design will still "fade" at the edges.

Since you have CNC experience, I would suggest you stay with the CNC mill/router method. Even if it meant another small tabletop machine to do these. No, I realize you won't get that for $1500 but I think the cheap laser will end up being a headache for you. What program do you currently use on your mill/router? This looks like a perfect application for V-carve. (Yes, more money.)

If you stay with CNC everything will be in your control. Are you prepared to write off the mistakes of your laser subcontactor?

Also think about the machining sequence. For lasering, they should have a finish coat on them to avoid smoke damage. But then they will probably need to be recoated after lasering. If you CNC the shape and the texture pattern, you can do all the finishing in one shot.

If your objectives are "crisper and faster" I don't know if the laser will achive either. The laser is inherently a 2D machine. Yes, you can do 3D but I don't know if you want to go there. Your designs are in my opinion closer to 3D and I think you would be better having 3D capability using a CNC mill or router than a laser.

Since your customers are fussy, I don't think you will be able to pass on less than perfect work. If I were you, I'd stay with CNC for this and put my $1500 towards new equipment and software which you are familiar with.

[Pete Simmons]

I do grips with a laser and except for simple initials or logos I wish I had a CNC machine.

I would think the CNC would do cross hatch much better than a laser.

My $0.02 is 3D on a laser is a joke.

[todd mckechnie]

You know I am glad that I am getting some honest opinions on this. My problem with my current machine is I am limited to 10,000 rpm. I am not a wood working guy , so this grip area is something that I figured a laser might work better with.

But your right, if I put $1500 into more / better tooling, I could just do it all on the cnc right now. Thus controlling my output with something I am already familiar with.

Interesting opinions and I greatly appreciate the ideas.

Also looking at the grips, I see that alot of them are probably cnc machined instead of laser because looking at the top grip ( lighter color ) wasnt lasered, it was definitely machined.

Hmm..... one more thing for me to add to the equation.....

Thanks guys.

[Andy Joe]

I think i actually have that gone pictured there. Is it a 380? Anyways i have made a couple grips my self and i found that if all u want to do is etch a image or do the dimiond hatch grip in them, then the laser works fine. I have a gaint square pattern of that dimond hatch. I just lay a drawing of the handle out over the top of it then mask off what i dont want and where and then run it. On my 380 it took about 10 mins to run both handles at the same time. I dont have a digital camera to show u the results but i have used it for some custom gun worker shops in my town and they were pleased with the result. I also used it to my grips for a pistol grip shifter on a john deere pull tractor. I made the whole grip out of a greenish wood(dont recall name) and put the pattern and logo in them. People at the track couldnt belive they werent factory and they were trying to figure out what tractor i stole them off of for weeks till i showed them how they were made. If u end up with the machine let me know and i will send u that pattern i use to get u started.

[David Fairfield]

You can easily use the laser like a CNC micro-router, but in order to copy the type of surface patterns you show in your Sig-Sauer samples accurately, you are probably looking at 3d lasering. So the issues for you, besides cost, are engraving quality and learning how to use the graphics software to make graphics for 3d patterns.

There's a learning curve on 3d lasering and, as far as I know, no guide book to teach you how to do it. It took me a heck of a lot of trial and error figuring out how to work with greyscales and materials and settings to get decent results in 3d. Granted, I'm not a graphics artist or a rocket scientist. But I wouldn't call it plug-n-play.

I'd also want to be sure the laser I'm getting can get extremely fine engraving quality. Because if your completed work shows rasters and lines, its going to look cheezy.

I'd say stick with what you know, or farm it out to somebody who's already invested the time and cash in lasering. It pays to specialize.

Dave

[David Fairfield]

My $0.02 is 3D on a laser is a joke.


I thought so too, but it can be done beautifully.

[James Stokes]

One more thing, On the darker woods the laser engraving is not going to show up well. Also with the harder woods like Ebony it takes a very powerfull laser to get any depth. I have a hundred watt laser and can not cut a piece of 3/16 ebony all the way through. With any of the 35 or 40 watt machines you will not be happy.

[todd mckechnie]

Thanks guys. I already cad out a few ideas, but found a flaw in my original cad. So I am fixing it.

But here is a rough idea I am working on.

http://customizedcreationz.com/images/610_checkering_2.jpg

I am going to swap the curve around though and go with it backwards I think.

Here I just messed around a little.

http://customizedcreationz.com/images/610_custom_1.jpg

[Martin Boekers]

Here something from an Epilog site you might want to check out to see some ideas what can be done.

http://www.epiloglaser.com/gun_stock_engraving.htm


also you may want to find someone here that has a similar laser (or contact the manufacturer) and have them do some samples on some of your stocks. That way you can get a test in your hands to see it.


Marty

[Norberto Coutinho]

Todd
Do a search on ebay
1 - for LASER ENGRAVER.... have a seller with a laser engraver that run under CNC software.
2 - for LASER ENGRAVING .... have another seller with another laser engraving machine taht run too under CNC software.
I am in doubt if I can post the links here.... but is easy to find them on ebay.... both machines in 2000/1500 US dollar... both sellers in US.

[Dan Hintz]

Norberto,

The machines that run with CNC software are used mainly for vector cutting... Todd needs 3D rastering capabilities if he intends to go forward with using the laser for making his patterns.

[Dan Hintz]

Hmmm, just received an unsolicited email from NIC Industries about gun coatings and such... I've never even hear of them, so I hope they're not trolling here for email addresses.

[todd mckechnie]

I looked at the Epilog setup awhile ago. Just too much money for me to outlay up front for just trying out something. I would rather throw away $1500 on something then the Epilog money.

Dan,
I do alot with Cerakote. I would be very surprised that they would do something like that. Forward the email to me if you don't mind and I ll talk to them about it and see what they say. I would be very bummed if that is the case.

guns@customizedcreationz.com

Thanks everyone
Todd

[Lee DeRaud]

I would think the CNC would do cross hatch much better than a laser.What he said: you can do checkering on a laser (DAMHIKT), but it's a kludge...and it shows in the results.

If I was looking to get into the pistol grip business, I'd be down at the Rockler dealer tomorrow ordering up the Shark CNC. It's designed for woodworking from the get-go, and you can put any kind of high-speed router into it that you want. A bit more than $1500, but way less than you'd actually spend getting set up with a decent dependable laser.

[Mike Null]

You can do what you want with a laser but within the limits of focus. A longer lens will be more forgiving. You can develop 3d drawings in Corel and if the drawing is good quality the engraving should be as well.

If I were considering this I'd find an engraver to work with for a while until the practicality of it can be determined.

I would not risk the $1500 machine.

[todd mckechnie]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97422&d=1263357501
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97423&d=1263357501
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97424&d=1263357568
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97425&d=1263357568



With the machine there will be 1.the video on install the machine 2. newlydraw software install video, the newlydraw video has documents on how to operate the software.

Working Size: 400mm*400mm
Laser Power: 40W
Laser Tube: Co2 sealed glass laser tube
Engraving Speed: 1-60000mm/min
Cutting Speed: 1-10000mm/min
Cooling system: water-cooling and protection system
Location precision: <0.01mm
Resolution ratio: 0.025mm
Minimum shaping character: Letters 1 x 1mm
Support Format: DSP, PLT, BMP, DXF
Interface: USB
Operating temperature: 5-40°C Operating humidity: 5%-95% free of condensed water



What do you guys think about this one?

[Dan Hintz]

We all think the same about this unit as we do all Chinese lasers of the same general design. Some like it, some don't. Look at prior threads to see the pros/cons of Chinese units and apply the comments to this machine, but there really is little difference.

[douglas rubio]

Buy it and let us know how it goes. You will not find a quality American made laser for that price.

[todd mckechnie]

I am doing my research on it.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .What do you guys think about this one? . . .

Todd
1. It is inexpensive.
2. If you want to use it for the parts you showed us, you will probably be disappointed.
3. It might be fun to experiment with it to see what it can do - assuming you have the time and money for the experiment.

[Mark Winlund]

I like the "amperometer".

Mark

[Dan Hintz]

That, and the "End Switch"... flip that and it could be the end of the world.

[douglas rubio]

I like the "amperometer".

Mark

Ha! Waldo is in one of the pictures too!! can you find it?

[Lee DeRaud]

It might be fun to experiment with it to see what it can do - assuming you have the time and money for the experiment.That kind of sums up my gut reaction to the phrase "$1500 laser".
Cool toy to play with, yes. Tool to run a business with, no.

[todd mckechnie]

That kind of sums up my gut reaction to the phrase "$1500 laser".
Cool toy to play with, yes. Tool to run a business with, no.

I understand, but I guess in one sense, maybe my question wasn't as clear, would this at least get my feet wet and do the parts for me in decent fashion.

Say I make 50 sets of these grips in a year ( for checkering or custom designs ) as a trial. I would like to think I could spend $1500 to learn how to work with a laser, get first hand experience and then if things are feasible and it looks to be prosperous, then pick up a better machine.

I like the Epilog website and I understand customer service , software and machine are all good. But I just cant afford to jump in that deep yet. I ve lost $1500 in stupid deals in the past, so while its alot of money, if it gives me experience and knowledge, then it may very well be worth $1500. And I am hoping if I choose to go this route that I will learn have a better idea of what I am looking for in the future.

I built my last small cnc machine just to cut these grips. I spent a small amount of money, but in the speed and accuracy of the machine are awesome. I like it. Its not a $500,000 HAAS, I understand that, but it works as good as any machine I ve worked with in the past for what I need it to do. I am just thinking the same thing with this little laser. Heck I almost thought of building one, but I just dont have time to do a learning curve like that.

I would love to have the machine hooked with Mach 3 and I see people offering breakout boards for that. But again I dont have time to mess with things like that right now.

We'll see, maybe I ll be the guinea pig for you guys and get this setup and then hook a Mach3 setup into it and see what happens then......

[douglas rubio]

I understand, but I guess in one sense, maybe my question wasn't as clear, would this at least get my feet wet and do the parts for me in decent fashion.

Say I make 50 sets of these grips in a year ( for checkering or custom designs ) as a trial. I would like to think I could spend $1500 to learn how to work with a laser, get first hand experience and then if things are feasible and it looks to be prosperous, then pick up a better machine.

..

I say go for it, I have never owned one but I have seen one in person and to be honest the laser did a darn good job.
Buy an Epilog whenever you have enough money

[Doug Griffith]

I agree with Lee and would go with a small CNC like the Shark. You won't be happy with a laser. Plus you'll have to deal with char. Plus you'll have to deal with registration. Plus you'll have to deal with different settings per type of wood. plus, plus, plus...

If the grips are made in small quantities just for you, I'd guess they are machined on a CNC. Why not work with whoever is machining them and have them apply the patterns?

[todd mckechnie]

I agree with Lee and would go with a small CNC like the Shark. You won't be happy with a laser. Plus you'll have to deal with char. Plus you'll have to deal with registration. Plus you'll have to deal with different settings per type of wood. plus, plus, plus...

If the grips are made in small quantities just for you, I'd guess they are machined on a CNC. Why not work with whoever is machining them and have them apply the patterns?

I machine them myself on my own equipment. I just know that machining fine detail on them like I would like to try in some designs just wont happen with a cutter that will resemble any kind of speed. I thought the laser would be faster and more precise in some respects.

[Doug Griffith]

I machine them myself on my own equipment. I just know that machining fine detail on them like I would like to try in some designs just wont happen with a cutter that will resemble any kind of speed. I thought the laser would be faster and more precise in some respects.

Laser engraving is not that fast. Especially on the cheaper machines (so I hear). Maybe that should be your first step. Outsource a set of grips on a laser and compare the speed to your CNC. A laser may not be worth the expense..

[Dan Hintz]

With those machines, you will not be able to (easily) do a true 3D engraving. This is because the power is set via a knob... it is not under computer control, like with US-made machines (and maybe one or two foreign machines), where the ,achine can change power on the fly. You could simulate 3D using a halftone, but I'm not sure you would be able to achieve an acceptable result.

[David Fairfield]

That control knob looks like it belongs on a 1970s vintage transistor radio.

[todd mckechnie]

After some serious thought, I ve come to the conclusion that we will try a few vendors for laser work first, and also use our own CNC machine as well. Check the times from the cnc vs cost of the vendors pricing and quality of each and go from there.

I am the king of never starting small and instantly thinking , hmmm, can we make this so crazy custom that only 2 people want that product ! So I am just going to start at the very basic diamond checkering and see what happens. I always like to make custom one off things, but I have to think production on this.

Thanks everyone for all the input !

[douglas rubio]

Good luck!

[David Fairfield]

I think you made a good choice. Farm out the work, see what results you get, how well it sells, can you do better with CNC. If you decide the laser will increase your revenue, get the best you can afford. Rushing in with a cheap machine is probably not good business. Let us know how it turns out.

Dave

[todd mckechnie]

Well I did a quick cut today on my CNC and with the wrong cutter , it actually turned out pretty good. I am going to have to increase spindle speed tremendously though.

But in a quick note, I think I can invest alot less into a new spindle setup just to do this engraving part and come out with something that will be just as good if not better.

I appreciate everyones input on this and I ll post some pictures soon when I get some new cutters.

Thanks
Todd

[David Fairfield]

Hey Todd

This month's newsletter from Epilog and the online "Sample Club" features a nice little article about gun stock engraving. Includes a Corel file you can download. Results look excellent in the photos.

Article also explains a few things to help engraving on curved surfaces. Good stuff. :)

Dave

[todd mckechnie]

Thanks !

I ll take a look. I did end up doing the basic diamond 60 degree and a 90 degree. It came out really nice actually. But I ll take a look at the Epilog and atleast if anything it will give me more insight.

Grip pictures !

http://customizedcreationz.com/images/600_P238_Checker_First_pics.jpghttp://customizedcreationz.com/images/600_P238_Checker_First_pics2_.jpg

[Dan Hintz]

I'm curious as to your run time using the CNC...

[todd mckechnie]

The gun on the right, that is the first non scrap grip I did. So the first real production grip done.

Run time for a set ( 2 pcs , 1 LH 1 RH ) was right around 8-10 minutes roughly. I have to slow it down to around 12 ipm because I just don't have enough spindle speed ( only around 10,000 rpm ). I believe if I can increase my spindle speed with a small air die grinder ( say around 40,000 rpm or more ) then I should be able to push 60 ipm and the pattern will take approximately 1 1/2 minutes for a set. I am guessing on that , but I did run a set through at current spindle speed at 60 ipm and it was "fuzzy" cutting leaving lots of burrs and flakes. I thought I remember it being around 45 seconds to cut one single grip. I ll check today.


But comparing to laser info from Epilog watching the Aztec calender cut out , it seems like lasers move pretty darn fast.

Thanks everyone for all the input.

Todd

[Mike Null]

That's great work. Now you've piqued my interest-I'll have to see if I can laser engrave a pair for my Sig.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think part of this issue is what will your limitations be? If you want to do the pattern you showed above, then you're already set. If you want to do unique patterns that can't be reproduced by anyone with a CNC, then the laser might be a great addition.

There are many 3d shapes that the router can't cut or won't cut well, that the laser will shine in. Imagine fish scales as one example. It could be done on CNC, but not easily. The laser will give you a wide variety of options that you don't get with the router.

The extra time might allow you to charge more and put you in a niche market for high end custom grips.

Just thinking out loud.

[todd mckechnie]

Thank you !

I would definitely like to see them if you do a set.

[todd mckechnie]

I think part of this issue is what will your limitations be? If you want to do the pattern you showed above, then you're already set. If you want to do unique patterns that can't be reproduced by anyone with a CNC, then the laser might be a great addition.

There are many 3d shapes that the router can't cut or won't cut well, that the laser will shine in. Imagine fish scales as one example. It could be done on CNC, but not easily. The laser will give you a wide variety of options that you don't get with the router.

The extra time might allow you to charge more and put you in a niche market for high end custom grips.

Just thinking out loud.


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. But I decided to hold back and just offer basic designs to start to start.

Thanks
Todd

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .But I decided to hold back and just offer basic designs to start to start. . . .

I think that is the right way to go. Perfect the use of the CNC and see what the market is like and what your customers want (and are willing to pay for.)

I'm still not convinced that the laser is a good tool for this. Perhaps there are some CNC-mill designs that could be enhanced with a bit of lasering e.g. if you outlined a flattish zone in the center of the handle that could be lasered in a subsequent operation - say to add a monogram or small graphic and such. But I really don't think the laser will be able to do the textures and patterning that the CNC can do, especially with the height variations. If you just wanted to do very small flat designs then maybe a cheap laser would work for you. Or perhaps you could get a very small bed laser (or even a used laser marker) that could laser a 6" x 6" zone.

[todd mckechnie]

Yeah I think the cnc will better suit me for now. I don't think the time to mess with a cheap china machine will result in much better or faster work then what I can produce myself. It might be able to do better work, but at the learning curve rate, I can easily walk out to the cnc and work with it and understand it.

I did time study on the grips, 18 ipm was 10 minutes for a diamond pattern. I was little off on my ipm. I am going to try and hook up a 54,000 rpm spindle head to the machine and let it rip at 60 ipm and see how it runs.

I am going to play with some other patterns and see how they turn out.

On a side note I did a couple air cut runs,

60 ipm = 3:30 seconds 1 pair

120 ipm = 2:22 seconds 1 pair

So the feed rate increase from 18 ipm vs 60 ipm 6 minutes 30 seconds. From 60 ipm to 120 ipm 1 minute 8 seconds difference. So basically I guess looking at it, if the 50,000 + spindle will engrave better 60 ipm seems to be a good number to run at.

I am sure a few tweaks in the program to change so many rapid movements to be closer together would probably cut down a few seconds as well. But I dont really see a need for the production speed to be any higher then the 60 ipm setting in fact, unless I start to produce more wood grips for different makes and models, I don't know if the justification would be there to run the grips at 60 ipm instead of 18 ipm. At 18 ipm the cut is pretty darn good.


I am going to crunch more numbers and see if it all equates out to new spindle head.

Shoot I started this with the idea that I would need a laser engraving machine and end up with thinking I might not need anything at all. LOL :D

[Dan Hintz]

Todd,

Is the machine zig-zagging back and forth, or is it doing entire straight 45 degree lines at one time? If it's zig-zagging, you can really cut down your time by optimizing the file.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .Shoot I started this with the idea that I would need a laser engraving machine and end up with thinking I might not need anything at all.

It often works that way . . . .sometimes we fall in love with an idea or concept and maybe follow a path that is not entirely logical or supported by the numbers. I'll bet everybody here has a few pieces of equipment or tool that they were certain they needed but never really put into service. But we like to avoid the multi-thousand dollar errors.

Put more money into the CNC (high speed spindle, software, tools etc) and you will probably do fine.

For low quantity runs you have to trade off optimization with payback on your time. If you have other things to do while the CNC is running, squeezing the last seconds out of it may not pay back the time investment.

[todd mckechnie]

It is zig zagging in a sense. Its picking up and moving too much. I am going to correct that tonight though hopefully.

And yes I do have some pieces of equipment around here and part I ve made , that I thought were going to be the next hottest thing.......

Thats why I figured it would be good to research the laser more before I just bought something.

Its not the fact necessarily of spending money on equipment, but the learning curve can be the difficult part and take time which is money as well.

[Lee DeRaud]

For low quantity runs you have to trade off optimization with payback on your time. If you have other things to do while the CNC is running, squeezing the last seconds out of it may not pay back the time investment.What he said: unless you're doing them in large batches, I suspect you're spending a lot more time doing the finishing than the machining.