Bench Stone Sizes

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Here in snowy Michigan today, I've decided that while I get great results from my Norton waterstones, and don't mind the occasional pain they can be, they just aren't practical for winter in a shop that is unheated most of the time. I'd like to get a few good natural bench stones (oilstones), but I'm having trouble making a decision on the size vs. price vs. usefulness tradeoffs. I'm wondering what size stones other people use, as I haven't really seen that discussed anywhere. I love the size of my 8x3 waterstones, but that's a lot of extra cash in oilstones, plus you've got double the surface area to flatten the day they do need it (compared to a 6x2). On the other hand, 6x2 seems a bit on the small side, especially going from the 8x3 nortons. I'm leaning towards 8x2 stones at the moment, but I'm curious about what sizes other people are using.

Opinions??

[Robert Rozaieski]

If you use a honing guide, you will need the 3" wide stones when it comes time to hone that 2-5/8" wide jointer plane iron. If you freehand, it matters not. I use 6" x 2" stones and they work fine for me (and the price is right). I have never felt that I needed the longer 8" x 2" stone.

[Richard Magbanua]

I've been looking at different sharpening methods again and have become interested in George Wilson's method (maybe he'll chime-in today). He suggests using a 220-grit diamond hone followed by the Spyderco brand medium (black) and ultra fine (white) ceramic bench stones (I believe they're 8x2in). Finally he strops on calfskin hide with polishing compound.
The thing that attracts me (other than George saying that's the way to go) is that Spyderco says you don't need to lubricate with water or oil. The stones however may need occasional cleanup to remove buildup of metal particles. Also, they supposedly last a long time and don't dish out like water stones do. I would be happy with water stones, but I wouldn't miss the mess or having to flatten them every other time. My finest stone right now is 4000 and I'm looking to get a much finer stone so I've been thinking about my options.

[Jim Koepke]

My experience is mostly doing free hand sharpening. A wider stone seems more useful than a longer stone.

The longer the stroke, the more likely one is to "rock" the blade. Of course, a short stroke also has its problems. My first water stones were actually slip stones about 2 inches by 4 inches. My skill at sharpening had a great improvement with the purchase of some larger stones.

Like so many things in life, it is often worth saving a while longer to acquire the best one can. My vote would be for at least 3 inch wide. The length would depend on cost and method comparison. If a guide is being used, the longer may be better.

jim

[Kevin Adams]

Tim, if you don't mind me asking, what stones are you contemplating? I agree with the others that it depends on how you sharpen...if you free-hand (side sharpen), the 2" wide stones are fine. If you are happy with your waterstones for most of the time, I would consider just getting a coarse and fine India (or even a combo stone) and then a translucent, all in the 6x2 or 8x2 size. I originally had the 6x2 size oil stones (soft, hard, and black) from Hall's and ended up splurging for the 8x3x1 size, and have been pleased (and I free-hand almost everything). However, I remember the photo of Krenov sharpening with very small stones (including a round stone), so it is easily done. Another compromise would be the 1/2" thick stones (India and translucent), but I like thicker vs. wider as they just seem more solid.

I have always liked the products and service from Hall's, but others have always said great things about Dan's, too. And if you want to go the India/translucent route, Nortons are very consistent and great stones.

Kevin

P.S. Don't forget a strop, too, as if you are used to the polish of waterstones, it is different with oil stones.

[Jon Toebbe]

The thing that attracts me (other than George saying that's the way to go) is that Spyderco says you don't need to lubricate with water or oil. The stones however may need occasional cleanup to remove buildup of metal particles. Also, they supposedly last a long time and don't dish out like water stones do.
You may not need water on the ceramic stones, but it sure helps! Dry sharpening, I found that the ceramic "pores" got clogged up with swarf pretty quickly. A little dab of water, and the stones cut without quitting for me. Others have recommended mixing in a little liquid dish soap -- I haven't tried it yet, but plan to next time I pull out the stones. Comet does a good job scrubbing off the stones when you're done.

The only trick with the ceramic stones is to make sure you get a flat one. They tend to warp a bit when fired. The "ultra-fine" white stones are machined flat after firing, but are otherwise identical to the "fine" white stones. The "medium" brown stones can be hit or miss. I bought one at the local Woodcraft, and it wasn't as flat as I'd have liked. Fortunately, I live not far from the Spyderco factory, and they let me paw through a box of stones fresh from the kiln to find a good one to exchange. :) You could also try flattening it yourself, but I understand it's rather more work than flattening a waterstone.

Overall, I've been very pleased with my Spyderco stones. I use sandpaper on a marble tile for rough flattening/shaping, the stones for honing, and a strop with green compound for the final polish of the edge. Pine end-grain whimpers in terror and slices cleanly at the passing of my chisel! :D

[Joel Goodman]

Tools for Working Wood sells the Norton 8" X 3" X 1/2" if you don't mind a thinner stone.

[Preston Baxter]

I started out using waterstones because this was what all of the new books and magazines advertised as being faster and cleaner. I bought a full set of Norton waterstones and always dreaded sharpening time. The stones wore away fast requiring frequent flattening, and the nasty black mess soaked into my fingers turning them into prunes.

I learned about sharpening with oilstones on Joel's Museum of Woodworking Tools site. Sure, they work a little slower, but seldom require flattening. Highly refined honing oil will not soak into the skin like water. After sharpening, simply wipe off the tool and your fingers with a rag or paper towel. No more mess and no rust.

If you are going to freehand sharpen I would recommend 6x2, if you use a roller guide, then go with the 8x2.
2 stones- 1 Norton Medium India(cheap), 1 Norton Hard Translucent Arkansas(expensive but you can pass it down to the Grandkids), followed by green rouge on a leather stop will give you a razor edge.

The three inch wide stones are a recent invention that's makes it easier to sharpen wide plane irons with a guide. I've never seen them in older literature, then again most craftsmen didn't use honing guides back then either.

I do about half my sharpening with guides and half without. For me, with the 3", it was more difficult to keep the India stone flat. I sold my 8x3 stones and replaced them with 8x2. The 2" forces you to use the whole stone. When using a guide and blades wider than 2", just let the edges of the blade alternately ride off the stone equally on both sides for a straight across hone. Honing in this way keeps the width of the stone flat. For a slight camber, let the blade spend more time further off each side of the stone on alternate strokes to create the curve.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Thanks to everyone for the well thought out replies. The stones I'm contemplating are the Hall's soft, hard, and black. I'd really like 1" thick stones, as I don't want to have to be at the edge of my bench to have enough finger clearance when honing the back of anything. I haven't seen anything to convince me that the translucent stones are really worth more than double the price of black. I already strop after honing, and I've already migrated from a honing guide to freehanding most things, but occasionally the guide can be nice with narrow chisels that don't register well. I also camber all of my bench plane irons, so a 3" stone isn't really needed, and I've pretty well written off 3 inchers anyway because of simple economics. I guess from all this, maybe I should just get the 6x2's and ditch the guide altogether. Then again, the 8" stones are only 25 bucks more total, so maybe it'd be worth it to just get those.

[Lloyd Parker]

I use oilstones exclusively. Had too much trouble with the waterstones dishing for my tastes.

I have the Norton 8"x3"x1/2" Medium India. Great for reestablishing a bevel or just getting the edge back in shape after a several honings.

Next on the list is a 12"x3"x1" Translucent Arkansas Stones from Hall's Proedge. They made me a deal that I couldn't pass up on a "second." Give him a call about his "seconds". If you don't want to spend the money on a Translucent then take a look at the Black Arkansas Stones. About half the cost for a great stone, just not quite as fine a grit as the Translucent.

Before I use either stone I quickly go over it with a DMT Duosharp. Just four or five quick passes. It keeps the the stones flat and the grit fresh.

I wouldn't have a stone less than 3" wide now. Wouldn't go back to water stones either.

Good luck.

[Kevin Adams]

Lloyd, which duosharp do you use, extra coarse/coarse, and is this the large (10") size? How flat is yours and does it really matter much when you are just dressing the surface to clean it up? I know this is what Larry Williams recommends, too.

Btw, nice translucent...you could have a party on a stone that large! Does it have much color in it or fairly clear? I know when I contacted Hall's about a translucent he said they had some color in them, but he didn't think it affected the stone at all. I have the 8x2 Norton that I use for carving chisels and I actually find it more aggressive than my black.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Kevin Adams]

Tim, before I went to the 3" stones, I had the 6x2's in soft, hard, and black (from Hall's) and they were nice stones. I found them a little small though so sold them for the 8x3's. However, I didn't get the soft as this is when Tools For Working Wood still had the 8x3x1 lilly white washita, so I got that to go with Hall's hard and black. I find this lilly white (no longer available unfortunately) to be an unbelievable stone--cuts much faster than the soft, but leaves a better surface. To be honest, I think I would get a medium or fine India instead of the soft arkansas. More aggressive, stays flat, and is economical. They are available in 6x2 or 8x2 in 1" thickness.

Take care,
Kevin

[george wilson]

I do recommend the 220 grit diamond stone,followed by the black,then white Spyderco ceramic stones. As well,I do strop a bit on calfskin with some Simichrome,Flitz,or other fine polishing compounds.

I do recommend use of very slightly soapy water. I use 3 or 4 drops of liquid dish detergent in half a pint of water. The ceramic stones WILL get little flat particles of steel stuck to them,especially the white stone. I use a quick rub down with water and the diamond stone to get them out. Others use cleanser and brushes.

I didn't buy the more costly super fine white stone. It is apparently the same stone as the regular white stone,but lapped smoother(and maybe flatter?) When I bought mine,the regular white was the only one I saw listed. I just lapped it under the faucet with a diamond stone to get the fuzz off. It took some elbow grease,but I got it flat and very smooth. You may prefer to spend the extra money and avoid the work.

The big advantages I find with the ceramic stones is that they never wear out.Also,they will sharpen D2 steel razor sharp. I wasn't able to get my other stones to do that,though there may be stones out there that will do it.

Being in a museum,I had the budget to try out many stones over the years,and these ceramics and diamond stones are what I have settled on.

[Lloyd Parker]

Kevin,

I have the extra course/course duo-sharp that is a 10". Last I checked about 6 months ago it was still flat. I think it needs to be somewhat flat, because you are dressing the stones when you take a few swipes and also flattening them at the same time. Larry is the one who taught me this technique. I got this to dress my waterstones with and it works great on the oilstones.

My translucent is great. It does have some color in it. One side has a nice white vein running through it and a orange vein as well. Most is the blue/white of the translucent. The other side is clean except for a small vein of black near the end of the stone (the blade rarely reaches it on a 12" stone). I use the clean side for shapening, however, when I run over a vein I don't notice it at all. Same material with a few different inclusions is what I am figuring.

Regards, Lloyd

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks, Lloyd. Do you use just one side of the duosharp or do you use extra coarse on your India and coarse on the translucent? I know Larry recommends just leaving the slurry on the stone after doing this as it aids the sharpening process. Btw, have you seen his new video on sharpening molding plane irons? Very well done and informative.

Regards,
Kevin

[James Taglienti]

I have a stack of natural oil stones that i got at an auction and they seem to work alright. Some steel likes them more than others do. I am having trouble finding a coarse and a medium-coarse stone that will last a while without dishing.

[Adam Cherubini]

If we are just talking about sizes, I prefer the 8x2" I hone freehand and prefer a longer stone. I have old stones that are under 2" wide and over 8" long and I like them. For wide irons you hold them askew. The wider stones are harder to keep flat.

What I'm currently using (and I keep changing) are hard and soft arkansas and I have an x-coarse or XX-coarse DMT diasharp that I use to remove nicks and to periodically dress my stones. I don't think dishing is a huge problem. I polished the backs of my tools on sand paper long ago. Now I only touch the backs long enough to polish away the wire edge. The trick is getting that wire edge on fine stones.

Underhill told me he never flattens his stones. I think we may have the wrong answer about our flat backs and flat stones. I mean, it works but is it really neccessary? Is it beneficial? I don't have the answer, but no one else seems to be asking the question. We just take it for granted that flat is required.

Adam

[Kevin Adams]

The trick is getting that wire edge on fine stones.

Adam

Adam, you are absolutely correct on this statement and it took me a while to figure this out as I was more interested in how polished (shiny) the edge was. If you don't create a wire edge with any stone, you haven't honed it, period.

Hope things are well.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Preston Baxter]

Underhill told me he never flattens his stones. I think we may have the wrong answer about our flat backs and flat stones. I mean, it works but is it really neccessary? Is it beneficial? I don't have the answer, but no one else seems to be asking the question. We just take it for granted that flat is required.
Adam

Now that you mention this, I have noticed that almost all old well-used tools I've collected didn't have flat backs when I found them.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Thanks for the info on this method George. I really admire the quality and diversity of your work. Clearly you have probably already forgotten more than most of us will ever learn of good craftsmanship.

The main thing that has stopped me from trying ceramic stones, is the reported trouble in finding a flat one, or flattening the one you have. If the ultra fine stone is indeed flattened at the end of the manufacturing process, it would probably be worth the extra cost. That would still leave me with using water as a lubricant in sub-freezing temps though.

I've been using a solution of marine/rv antifreeze (propylene glycol) and water with the water stones, which has kept them from freezing, but still leaves your hands bloody cold when handling them. Storing them in the house and schlepping them to and from the shop when you need them is also a pain.........so I'm ready to make a change to something that can just live out there in any weather without special treatment.

I don't have anything as difficult as D2 to sharpen, mostly vintage steel, with a few A2 plane irons and chisels. I'm still learning (always), and am curious about how some quality natural stones would perform, so I think I'll try that for now.

Regards,

Tim

[Leon Jester]

I've 2x6 stones, 320 & 700 diamond, a black Arkansas and a Washita. I freehand so width isn't an issue.

Were I in the market again, I'd get the Spyderco stones, I've one of their triangular systems I use for knives and am quite pleased with it.

I don't usually go past the black, I'm of the "shaving sharp" school. Last time I buffed out anything, it was for vanity, showing off a pocket knife.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Just a follow up on this if anybody's interested. I did get the 8x2x1 soft, hard, and black stones from Hall's. Very happy with the size and quality of the stones. I do like to take fewer, longer strokes -- so I think the 6" length would have been too short.

Also have to comment on the great service. The soft stone arrived with a hairline crack part way through, right in the middle of the stone. I called the next day, and spoke to Richard Hall, who said it had to have happened in shipping, and he would send a new one right away, no questions asked. Great guy to do business with.

[george wilson]

I'm not sure if getting antifreeze on your hands frequently is a good idea. I'd check that out. I have no knowledge of its effects on your hands,but best to play safe. Turpentine can give you arthritis and lots of other bad effects.

I'm sure if you google for effects on your skin or hands you can find something out. At my age,I've become a LOT more cautious about what I get on me. When I was young,in the 50's,no one ever thought about effects of gasoline,turpentine,etc. I'm lucky that I didn't get messed up from stuff I used to do.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm lucky that I didn't get messed up from stuff I used to do.

I think a lot of us can give thanks for that.

There are a lot of things that could have messed me up that didn't. Some of them still give me aches and pains to remind me to be thankful for still being around.

jim

[Kevin Adams]

Hi Tim,

Glad you like the stones. Hall's really do provide great service and the stones are first rate. One thing I have found, especially on the soft ark, is they do benefit from a few swipes of a diamond stone to condition the surface. I think the soft ark cuts much better this way, although still not as agressive as an India.

Enjoy the stones. What are you using for oil btw?

Kevin

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

That's the other part of my thought process George. Although the propylene glycol used for winterizing water systems is "generally regarded as safe," I wouldn't want to put it in my morning coffee.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Kevin,

Did you surface the soft stone when new, or after use?? Right now it seems to work fine for me. I've only used them a little bit so far, and I'm only expecting them to sharpen and clean up the surface finish of things that have already been shaped on the grinder, diamond stone, or coarse India. I've been able to get nicely polished edges that are plenty sharp enough for the work I do right off the black stone. Haven't tried them on A2 yet, so we'll see how that goes. With the exception of an old Norton coarse/fine India I picked up at a yard sale, the man made oil stones I have are junk compared to them. I'm using a light mineral oil with them (like baby oil, but unscented), and might mix a little kerosene with it if I need them to be more aggressive with A2.

[Larry Williams]

...Underhill told me he never flattens his stones. I think we may have the wrong answer about our flat backs and flat stones. I mean, it works but is it really neccessary? Is it beneficial? I don't have the answer, but no one else seems to be asking the question. We just take it for granted that flat is required.

Adam

Can I suggest you look at The Joiner and Cabinet Maker the book Chris Schwarz and Joel Moskowitz republished? According to this book, not only did they maintain their stones flat but a worker who left the stones out of flat in a shop could have been or was fined.

I doubt you'd have any trouble raising a wire edge with a properly maintained hard Arkansas. They cut quite fast when maintained. If one pays attention there will be dulling wear to the flat face of a plane iron as well as to the bevel. If one fails to take care of this wear, they're depending on honing just half of each edge to get sharp and you don't get a sharp edge by just honing half of the edge. This wear to the face is slight and simple to remove unless it's ignored and allowed to grow into a major issue.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Hi Larry,

I'm curious about what technique you use to remove the wear bevel from the face?

[Kevin Adams]

Hi Tim,

I pretty much do a few swipes with a dmt stone before any new sharpening session and leave the slurry on there. I'd recommend Larry Williams new DVD on sharpening molding plane irons if you want to see what this looks like. You will notice that that stones do begin to clog a bit in very little time no matter how careful you are with cleaning them off after use. The diamond stone helps remove the tiny bits of metal and give you a clean surface, as well as keeping the stone flat. I use a duosharp 10" plate since I had one and I have the 3" wide stones (325/600 grits, with 325 on coarse stones and 600 on the fine stones), but you could get the 8" stone and you'd be OK:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000022405/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

Do not use the dmt for anything but conditioning your stones.

As for oil, when I first got my stones I used straight mineral oil and way too much at that (someone had told me you can never use enough...well you can!). I was frustrated that the stones were so slow as compared to water stones. I have since switched to either WD-40 or another light oil like the stuff Norton sells or Smith's (available in most big box stores). Makes a huge difference. You can also use mineral spirits. I think I like Nortons or Smiths best now since it is non-petroleum and non-toxic.

Lastly, you might consider getting a strop to clean up any remaining wire edge after the black stone. The one Joel sells at TFWW works very well for me, untreated.

I think you will realy enjoy your new stones and maybe you will sell your water stones like I did!

Kevin

[Larry Williams]

Tim,

Maintaining the flat face is exactly what all this is about. If you've done a good job on the previous sharpening of the tool you have done all the prep work for this sharpening. You have a repeatably flat face on the tool and your stones are in the same flat condition they were the last time you sharpened. Just a few passes on a medium stone and a few on the fine stone to remove the abrasive signatures of the medium stone and you're ready raise a wire edge on the bevel, remove the wire edge and to strop if you like.

You have to look closely at the flat back before you move from the medium stone to the fine stone and make sure the abrasive signatures of the medium stone go all the way to the cutting edge. This is where magnification helps a lot. If your fine stone is in the same flat condition as the medium stone, it'll only take a few passes to get rid of the medium stone's signatures on the tool.

This simple concept is the foundation of effective sharpening. Failing to understand it is the cause of almost every sharpening problem I see when we're out teaching. It's also the one reason I don't like honing guides. Honing guides cause people to focus on the bevel when almost all honing problems occur on the flat face.

If everyone learned this and learned simple grinding techniques, I think a lot of worthless junk would vanish from the market. There would also be a lot more hand tool woodworkers because success with hand tools would be within easy reach.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Thanks for the advice Larry, what you describe is a little bit different from what I've done (I usually only work the flat side on the fine stone). I've gotten results that have been good enough for me so far, but I'll add in the medium stone and see if that improves things. I'm just not a fan of purposely putting a back bevel on irons, or of using the "ruler trick" to clean up the wear bevel.

[Larry Williams]

I should thank you, Tim. It's through discussions like this that I learn how to better articulate things. For years I've talked about the importance of flat backs, flat stones and the importance of working all the way to the edge when maintaining the back of a tool. I knew what the goal was but never specifically said it. I never said, "The whole reason for flat backs, flat stones and magnification is that this is the best and easiest way to get repeatable, predictable and direct control of the critical 0.020" or so area on the flat face right at the cutting edge." If I can find a good way to stress this, I can help a lot more people solve their sharpening problems because that's exactly the source of most sharpening difficulty.

It's also the reason I'm no fan of sandpaper sharpening, the ruler trick or of the mechanized sharpening systems. These invariably either take away control, predictability or repeatability in honing when it comes to this tiny but critical part of a cutting edge.

[David Keller NC]

Folks - I'm late to this discussion, but if someone reading this wants oilstones that are 1" thick and 3" wide, you can get them from Dan's whetstone company:

http://www.danswhetstone.com/bench_stones.htm

They are quite expensive in the finer grades, but no more so than Japanese polishing waterstones (and in some cases, a lot less - the most desirable natural Japanese waterstones can cost more than $1000).

Regarding bench clearance for your knuckles with Joel's 1/2" thick oilstones, it's pretty easy to make a bench hook that's 1" thick and the exact width of the stone. A couple of stops with which to use wedges will secure the stone to the bench hook.