dovetailing a carcass

[Andy Hsieh]

Is there any hardset rules for which sides or top and bottom get tails versus pins? I understand logic for drawers as when you pull the drawer, you exact forces that require sides be tails but what about carcasses that stand up on end?

thoughts?
TIA

[Al Navas]

How I would do it:

Only my opinion: I would want the joinery to show. As a result, this means having the tails boards on the sides. Even if you use trim, they will still show.

.

[Andy Hsieh]

thanks Al - yes it will have moulding around the top but you will still see the DT's from the top

other than cosmetics though?

[Jim Koepke]

Think of it hanging on the wall. The bottom would be a shelf that could fall off the piece if it was the tail board.

From what I have seen, the sides are the tail boards.

jim

[Tom Winship]

I might be wrong, but I think it is easier to assemble with the tails on top. And, as someone added if you put trim around the edges, the top of the pins are still visible.
Tom

[Jim Koepke]

I might be wrong, but I think it is easier to assemble with the tails on top.

If this were the case (no pun intended, but still extended) couldn't just turning the work on its side solve this problem?

jim

[Andy Hsieh]

in this case - a standing lingerie case - turning it would not be an option.
same idea as dovetailing a dresser carcass

so tails on top - pins on the sides?

[Adam Cherubini]

Is there any hardset rules for which sides or top and bottom get tails versus pins? I understand logic for drawers as when you pull the drawer, you exact forces that require sides be tails but what about carcasses that stand up on end?

thoughts?
TIA
Yes. The sides of a vertical carcass always have the tails. This keeps the top and bottom from falling off. The sides are held together by sliding dts in the drawer dividers in front, and nailed on backer boards in back.

I often think that it would be beneficial to put the tails on top and bottom to help restrain the cup of the sides. Moldings would then be applied to cover up the pins, leaving the mroe attractive tails visible on top. But this is never done. Last piece I did had half blind tails on the upper joint on teh sides so no ugly pins showed on the top.

I also think it you do tails first, its easier to mark the shorter piece from the longer instead of vice versa.

Adam

[Dave Anderson NH]

It can and is done both ways depending on the maker and the application. First, for a wall hung box having the pins on the top and bottom pieces does indeed help prevent the carcass from dropping the bottom or having the top lift off. In the case of a high chest on chest, highboy, secretary, or a chest of drawers. the tailboard is often (but not always) the top and the bottom. As Adam said, this helps prevent cupping on the wide side boards. FYI, if you look at books by Gottschal he does the tailboards on top, while Glen Huey does it the opposite way. Historically it was also done both ways.

My choice would be dependant on the way the piece I was copying was done if I want to make an exact replica.

Clear as mud folks.

[Mike Henderson]

Here's a carcass I'm working on right now (first pix). I don't like exposed joinery so I use half blind dovetails (second pix), with tails in the horizontal pieces. A separate top will be put on the cabinet and will cover the joinery (third pix of a earlier, completed cabinet).

The bottom is also attached with half blind dovetails. The cabinet will sit on a separate base (about 3.5" high) so no one will easily see the joinery there, either.

This wasn't in your question, but I set the back into a groove instead of a rabbet. That way, I don't have to use nails or glue to attach the back. I have taken to putting a smidgen of glue in the middle of each groove to prevent the back from rattling when you tap on it. Of course, no one is going to tap the back "in use" but I don't like the tinny sound of that rattle.

Note, also that I finish all the inside surfaces before assembling the cabinet. It's a lot easier than trying to sand into the corners.

Mike

[Tom Winship]

If this were the case (no pun intended, but still extended) couldn't just turning the work on its side solve this problem?

jim
Nor when it is a 60" wide dresser weighing a ton. I had previously built two nitestands and kind of wished I had put the tails on the sides. When I got to the dresser, I understood why I had done it that way.

[Don Dorn]

Great looking cabinet Mike.

[Gene DiNardo]

I always thought that for high end case pieces,
half Blinds were used with tails on top and bottom so the joinery
did'nt show on the sides.
Gene

[Richard Magbanua]

I'm in the process of making a dresser with dovetailed carcass joinery. I chose to cut tails in the top. I figure if I'm gonna cut them by hand I want the tails to show. For a dresser I think that strength comparisons either way would be a moot point. I chose to make aesthetics the priority. Maybe it's the newbie in me, but seeing dovetails in the top of the dresser is like the main attraction of this piece.
With regards to half-blinds I did read an article by Lonnie Bird in which half-blinds were used to keep possible gaps from forming between the joint and the moulding which is a possibility with through dovetails because of the outward expansion of the sides. I wasn't too confident with half-blinds yet, so I'm using through's. Besides, Christian Becksvoort seems to think it's okay.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hpXGFALLM3Y/Sw6XYbhlvzI/AAAAAAAAANE/UhAE1HSfQVI/s1600/Last+Import+-+9.jpg

[Don McConnell]

Andy,

I guess there are always exceptions, but in the case of standing (vs. hanging) carcasses, the conventional approach is for the tops and bottoms to have the lapped tails. As others have already pointed out.

I thought, though, that the following image from Charles Hayward's _Cabinet-Making for Beginners_ might not only reenforce this point, but provide some additional information to consider. Incidentally, the carcass marked "A" is on the scale of a bookcase, while that marked "C" is a chest of drawers.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Andy Hsieh]

Thank you all for such great responses - This has been very helpful to read and see some examples of projects in progress and also understand what has been done in the past.

As a starting project, I think I am gonna go with the Dovetails on top and bottom and tails on the side - This will be a standing chest about 60" tall. I would like to say Shaker style Lingerie chest but the word shaker and lingerie seems like such an oxymoron :eek: - based on Christian Becksvoort's chest only with gappy dovetails and other amatuer errors :o

I hope I can document this and try to post it up.

Thank you again to everyone.

[Chris Friesen]

Yes. The sides of a vertical carcass always have the tails. This keeps the top and bottom from falling off. The sides are held together by sliding dts in the drawer dividers in front, and nailed on backer boards in back.

I often think that it would be beneficial to put the tails on top and bottom to help restrain the cup of the sides. Moldings would then be applied to cover up the pins, leaving the mroe attractive tails visible on top. But this is never done. Last piece I did had half blind tails on the upper joint on teh sides so no ugly pins showed on the top.

For a hanging piece it makes sense to put the tails on the vertical sides to help resist gravity.

For a chest of drawers, things are different, and your statement that this is "never done" is incorrect...Chris Becksvoort uses tails on the top of his dresser, sometimes with moldings applied to the sides (using dovetailed keys to allow for movement) to cover up the pins. Here's a shot:

http://www.chbecksvoort.com/images/edgemldg.jpg

[Bob Smalser]

For a hanging piece it makes sense to put the tails on the vertical sides to help resist gravity.

For a chest of drawers, things are different, and your statement that this is "never done" is incorrect...

To illustrate your comment in a slightly different venue, these are all carcass rails joined to paneled sides in Victorian-style furniture. Some rails are oriented horizontally, some vertically....all are jointed by dovetails instead of M/T at all 4 corners.

Detail with tops removed:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/216441043.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/216441041.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/36609507.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/36609494.jpg

Detail with top installed:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/79634787.jpg

[Frank Drew]

Yes. The sides of a vertical carcass always have the tails. This keeps the top and bottom from falling off.

I often think that it would be beneficial to put the tails on top and bottom to help restrain the cup of the sides... But this is never done.

With respect, this is simply not true. For starters, what, exactly, is going to make the top of a carcase fall off? And I haven't been in every home in the world, but I'd guess that 90+% (99%?) of furniture carcases (we're not talking kitchen cabinets here) aren't hung on walls or otherwise suspended -- they're standing, in some fashion -- so worries about the bottoms falling off are also misplaced. (Toolboxes and chests meant to be carried with a load inside, or wall-hung cabinets, they're different.)

IMO, cosmetics should not be uppermost in your mind when considering joinery; the whole needs to look good, of course, but the joints are mechanical devices meant to keep your piece together against whatever predictable forces it has to deal with. For a typical furniture carcase, you're concerned with the doors and drawers fitting properly throughout the life of the piece, so holding the sides in where they belong is key, which is why the tails most properly go on the top and bottom boards. IMO. (Exceptions noted above)

[Derek Cohen]

Let's face it, when glued it really does not make much difference which way the dovetails face. For extra strength, if the carcase is hanging on a wall, I certainly make sure that the tails face outward.

Here is a WIP. The carcase is complete. What is left is a jarrah top for the cabinet (wardrobe/armoire), and in this case the dovetails are intended to show at the sides (ala half-blind ends), and the drawer in the lower section ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Dovetail%20Cabinet/Guestroom1.jpg

For interest, the lower panels are attached with sliding dovetails. These are hidden behind the face frame and doors ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Dovetail%20Cabinet/Carcase/Uprightwithbase1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Friesen]

Here is a WIP. The carcase is complete. What is left is a jarrah top for the cabinet (wardrobe/armoire), and in this case the dovetails are intended to show at the sides (ala half-blind ends)...

Interesting...I like most of your stuff Derek but the carcase dovetails on that piece just look "wrong" to me. It's like they're there for show, but aren't actually doing anything.

[Sean Hughto]

Well, they are actually making for a very rigid and strong carcase. They are doing that.

What joint do you think he should have used that would accomplish the same end better?

[Frank Drew]

I'm not Chris, and I'm not going to second-guess Derek, but the issue we've been debating here is whether to place carcase dovetails on the sides or on the top and bottom. And why.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, okay, I can read. ;-)

Chris suggested that Derek's dovetails on that carcase looked as though they were just for show and had no actual use. I merely noted that they indeed had a use and asked Chris what he thought Derek should have done to make the joint that would have accomplished the same strength carcase.

Personally, like most of the posters in this thread, I think that the answer is a matter of design and personal preference on original pieces which are self supporting (e.g., not wall hung) as the expected stresses are not limited (as would be the case in drawers, for example). On reproductions, one should, of course, do it the way the original was done.

My most recent large carcase has the tails on the sides because I though the tails looked more interesting than the pins:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2758/4183709850_96dafa7a13.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/3021306868_12d5c02600.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2128/2281053800_d47743033d.jpg

[Frank Drew]

Sean,

Very nice work; what's the figured panel material?

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Frank.

Everything but the four legs (walnut) and the bits (ebony inlay on the pinwheel drawer; ebony wedges on the through tenons in the legs; blood wood pulls) is cherry. The panels are just particularly curly pieces.

[Frank Drew]

Great looking stuff; there was a poster earlier today in Lumber Yard asking if he should buy some rather pricey curly cherry; this is why.

[David Gendron]

I have to say that I'm with Sean, Derek and Adam! I always put the tails on the side panels. in the end, with the glue we use, if you use glue... I think it's a mather of preferences!

[Chris Vandiver]

If you look at photos of James Krenov's work, you'll see that for carcase work that used dovetail joinery, he put the tails on the sides.

Chris

[Andy Hsieh]

I love seeing the actual projects illustrating the possible configurations and how they actually look on real work.

I think after reading all the posts, I lean towards tails on top when adding a moulding around the edges and tails on the sides when the top won't show - such as something taller that maybe us short people will only see the sides :) but the idea of mouldings to cover up amateur dovetails does provide some solice that 2 sides won't look terrible :rolleyes:

[Dan Hahr]

It seems to me that the glue (like the hide glue used years ago) might eventually fail. If the tails were on the top or bottom of the carcass, lifting it by the top to move it might be disasterous. I like to think my furniture will be around long enough for the glue to fail one day...
Dan

[Frank Drew]

Dan,

Glue certainly weakens over time (a long time, to be sure), but I consider that a very good argument for placing the tails on the top and bottom if you want your carcase to hold together and the doors and drawers to fit properly even when it does.

[Adam Cherubini]

You guys are right, I'm wrong. I'm thinking of very narrow subset of 18th c chests of drawers. When I think of rules, how one makes drawers for example, there DO seem to be similarities regionally and even nationally for the furniture I look at. I have no idea about what Chris Becksvoort does.

You won't find great differences in anglo-american 18th c furniture in the Met, PMoA, Winterthur, or the Wallace Dewitt. The general practice is the tails are on the sides. Drawer dividers are dt'ed into the sides in front. Backers are nailed to rabbets in the sides in the back.

I think Jeff Greene's book, "American Furniture of the 18th c" is a good look at basic joinery. I recommend this book to all woodworkers for it's appendices alone.

Adam

[Frank Drew]

As long as we're citing authors and authorities, this from Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood:

"Nothing is more symbolic of the woodwork tradition than the dovetail joint.... commonly used in carcase construction. The joint consists of interlocking tails and pins, giving it strength in tension along the tail member but not along the pin. It should therefore be oriented to resist tension against the tails [the strength comes from the wedging action of the tails against the pin faces]. In a drawer, for example, the tails should be in the drawer sides, the pins in the drawer front. In case construction, the pins should be in the sides and the tails in the top [and bottom] to prevent the sides from spreading."

This surely won't be the last word on the subject, just another county heard from. But he does explain my thinking as well.

[Sean Hughto]

What stresses are you imagining that make the sides spreading any more likely than the top and bottom coming off?

It's just like a six board chest in that there is no obvious right direction to use the mechical strength of the joint (assuming away the super strong long grain connections at the key glue surfaces). We don't much worry about long grain edge table top glue ups having failures 100 years from now, why the great concern with carcase dts?

Finally, I think Hoadley's argument is a bit too simple in that it imagines teh carcase in a vacuum. Internal dividers (with sliding dt's as Adam mentions); tops, legs, stretcher's; aprons, etc. all come into play to restrain "side spreading" in various designs. For example, look at my piece above. The sides are trapped by the legs, top and stretchers. They ain't movin.

[Randy Klein]

Just curious. How many people have been sitting in their chair and all of sudden the bottom of a case falls off and the top is subsequently flung off? Honestly, has that ever happened? Most damage done to furniture is going to happen when those moving company goons get their hands on it. And at that point, the DT orientation won't matter. With that in mind, do whatever looks best to you.

[Bob Smalser]

What stresses are you imagining that make the sides spreading any more likely than the top and bottom coming off?


A carcass experiences significant racking stress every time it is pulled or pushed from its place to vacuum or dust beneath, which can be several times a month in some households.

The taller and heavier the carcass and the more physically weak the mover, the greater the stress, although mortised legs and shelves can help distribute the stress from the corners. Given enough time, most carcass corner joints eventually break their glue bonds because of this, and repairable glues are a thoughtful touch for the next guy who works on the piece.

Accordingly, for freestanding furniture I'd be very reluctant to consider any orientation other than tails on tops and bottoms.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/216441041.jpg

[Frank Drew]

What stresses are you imagining that make the sides spreading any more likely than the top and bottom coming off?



Sean,

A case might have a side 16, 18 inches wide, whatever; there's a tendency for wide boards to cup (once the glue holding them in place weakens). That's why a mechanical joint, independent of glue, is important.

But other than a reversal of the laws of gravity, what, in normal use (and excluding abuse), is going to make the top or bottom of a case to come off? And even if a dovetailed top board cups a bit, it should still hold the sides in place as long as a little bit of the dovetails still hold; however, if a side board cups or otherwise moves even a little bit your drawers or doors won't fit as they're supposed to.

I don't think the placement of the dovetails is interchangeable, according to whim; I believe that there should be a good cabinetmaking reason behind our joinery decisions.

But people are allowed to make furniture however they want; I don't pretend to be the furniture police.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't think the placement of the dovetails is interchangeable, according to whim; I believe that there should be a good cabinetmaking reason behind our joinery decisions.

If I said something to make you believe I think that dovetails are always interchangeable according to whim, I apologize, as I do not believe this. I do think that the orientation of the dovetails can vary in a carcase depending upon a lot of factors about the individual piece in question (e.g., to be hung on a wall or sit on legs etc. etc.). Hence generalizations or rules are not particularly useful. One should think through the cabinetmaking reasoning, as you put it, for every piece.

I also think that there are times when the answer is that the answer to the tail/pin orientation question is indeed, six of one and half a dozeon of the other - there is no clear reason to favor one orientation over the other, and a dovetail is still the best joint that can be imagined for a rigid durable carcase. I suppose in such situations, one might wedge the pins to create mechanical locks in both directions, but wedges too, of course, rely upon glue ultimately, albeit, again the best kind of glue joint: long grain and plenty of relative surface area.

As far as what is going to make the top and bottom come off - well Bob makes a great case for the lifting and moving stresses on the top. Obviously if the case is loaded with heavy items, it is likely to have some significant stresses on the bottom too.

Also, I don't think properly prepared sides (just like a properly prepared table top) should cup very much, if at all. And internal structures like dividers and runners, etc. should help restrain such cupping just as aprons and such restrain table tops somewhat.

[Frank Drew]

Also, I don't think properly prepared sides (just like a properly prepared table top) should cup very much, if at all.

In general I agree with this and it's one reason I came to appreciate wood that's been air dried for a long time -- it seems more "relaxed" and less prone to funny business. But, still, wood can be a bear sometimes and it's best to take reasonable precautions.

[Bob Smalser]

To clarify for those who have asked, this is what "racking" or "shear" stress looks like. It occurs every time the carcass is moved, and remains the principle reason that tails are usually cut in the tops and bottoms of freestanding pieces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shear_stress

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Shear_stress.JPG/180px-Shear_stress.JPG

If your sides are cupping to any significant degree, you have more basic problems (wood selection and grain orientation during layup) than the orientation of your dovetails.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/189555324.jpg