Creating database for laser settings...

[Stephen Hanlon]

Hi all, I am new to the forum and would just like to say that is great to find an industry that is willing to share information and discuss issues that would otherwise be deemed proprietory.

My wife and I have just kicked of our back yard laser engraving business and are still in the early stages of getting familiar with the machine. I have read a number of threads about settings, power of each machine, speed etc. and realise that this is going to be a suck-it and see type of method. My question is that if I was to put a database together so that I can reference materials, settings and even environmantal factors what variables would you suggest would be needed to be inputted into the database apart from the obvious speed, power etc..??

BTW - We live in NSW, Australia and it gets very warm and humid in the back garage so enviromental conditions will be important to us.

Regards, Stephen
GECKO LASER ENGRAVING.

[Steven Wallace]

Hi all, I am new to the forum and would just like to say that is great to find an industry that is willing to share information and discuss issues that would otherwise be deemed proprietory.

My wife and I have just kicked of our back yard laser engraving business and are still in the early stages of getting familiar with the machine. I have read a number of threads about settings, power of each machine, speed etc. and realise that this is going to be a suck-it and see type of method. My question is that if I was to put a database together so that I can reference materials, settings and even environmantal factors what variables would you suggest would be needed to be inputted into the database apart from the obvious speed, power etc..??

BTW - We live in NSW, Australia and it gets very warm and humid in the back garage so enviromental conditions will be important to us.

Regards, Stephen
GECKO LASER ENGRAVING.

Let me start off by saying that lasers produce heat but do not like to run in it. It is like any other computer based equipment, they like to be comfortable to moderately cool. Temperature extremes in either direction will kill your machine. Factory setting are baselines and you will probably have to take other's settings as the same. One machine and one piece of substrate is going to act different than another. It really is trial and error. I document every successful engraving by adding a text note on each file that includes the following: speed, power, dpi and any other information I felt might be important even including where I got the material. I keep a notebook of instructions to review for those processes that I do very infrequently. Experiment on everything you can. To start make a checklist of things to check every time you run your machine. Nothing like pushing start and then realizing the "OH NO second" has just happened. That is the second it takes to realize you just ruined a valuable piece of material. Read the thread "30 thing I wish I had known before starting my laser business". Lots of wisdom there. Need a graphics, two words - Frank Corker

Enjoy your new toy and may you be as successful as you can be.

[Darren Null]

Forget a database. The ideal setting for a particular material can vary even across the same bit; particularly with natural materials. Plus you get stuff on the lens, so performance tails off between cleans. Plus your laser will lose gas and become slightly less powerful over time. Plus, unless your alignment is perfect there can be variations in power over the width/height of the bed.
Speed, power, material, DPI, pulse rate, notes. That's about it. And then all you'll have is a reference of what worked last time.

That's for one machine burning the same stuff all the time. Another identical machine bought at the same time will give different results.

Humid conditions are only really a problem if you have a watercooled laser- condensation can form and cause you problems, particularly on the lens/mirrors.

[Allen Isakson]

Darren, not real sure what you mean about humidity and water cooled lasers. Humidity affects my laser the same as anyone Else's. as far as mirrors and lenses, no machine is different then the others unless yours are completely enclosed in a airtight compartment. Humidity is not good for any machine. The best thing to do is put a dehumidifier in the room or just put the laser in a climate controlled environment.

[Mike Null]

I keep my laser in the basement where the temperature is fairly constant between 65 and 72 degrees F. Summer time humidity does get little high but the air conditioner generally takes care of it. If not, I have a dehumidifier.

I have been using essentially the same settings for more than three years with this machine so a database for settings is important, even if as Darren says, you have to tweak them now and then.

At the moment the variance I find is more in the material than the machine.

My driver has a settings file and I back that up to my desktop. I also have an automatic external back up device.

[David Fairfield]

My "database" consists of scrap material I've successfully cut and or engraved, which I keep together with a card with the settings written on it. Where possible, these are organized in a binder with plastic sleeves meant for holding business cards.

I find it helps to have a lasered piece I can actually see, rather than a spreadsheet or notebook, because sometimes I'm dealing with subtle differences and things I can't really catalog like smoke staining and scorching, warping and material disintigration and stuff I might want to look at under magnification etc.

Have fun with your new laser and let us know what you're up to.

Dave

[Martin Boekers]

David has the right idea about saving samples,

Another thought is to save samples of problems that occur and remedies.
Epilog and ULS give great support, but if you start off with a smaller brand or Chinese laser I think this would be a valuable tool in resolving issues.

I think a standard test file would be great if it could help discern settings, similar to what a grey scale or a color chart does in photography to
help discern exposure. A file we could burn into the substrate that would help with finding the best settings. I haven't heard of a standard one available.

I know some here on the forum have worked out some test files on their own to help them.

It would be great if laser manufactures would come up with one and make it available to us.

Hint, hint, Peck:cool:


Marty

[Dan Hintz]

Allen,

Humidity tends to affect water-cooled tubes more often because the cooling water helps moisture-laden room air to condense on everything... you don't have that cooling fluid in a sealed system.

[douglas rubio]

Allen,

Humidity tends to affect water-cooled tubes more often because the cooling water helps moisture-laden room air to condense on everything... you don't have that cooling fluid in a sealed system.

Do you own a water cooled tube?
from what you wrote I doubt you ever had any experience with water cooled systems.

[douglas rubio]

My "database" consists of scrap material I've successfully cut and or engraved, which I keep together with a card with the settings written on it. Where possible, these are organized in a binder with plastic sleeves meant for holding business cards.

Dave

+1 the best method

[Dan Hintz]

Do you own a water cooled tube?
from what you wrote I doubt you ever had any experience with water cooled systems.
You shouldn't doubt yourself as much, then... you'd be wrong a few less times.

Edit: I no longer own a water-cooled tube... I saw the light and traded up.

[John Noell]

Stephen, Welcome to the Creek! I keep a notebook organized by each type of material. That's my database! (And I'm a long-time computer nerd - go figure.) People here tend to be polite and thoughtful - although I am seeing more posts these days with a bit of a bite. Sorry that your thread is an example of that. MOSTLY, people here are kind, and helpful, to each other - even when they disagree.

[douglas rubio]

You shouldn't doubt yourself as much, then... you'd be wrong a few less times.

Edit: I no longer own a water-cooled tube... I saw the light and traded up.

sure buddy , but that light blinded you.

[Darren Null]

Girls, girls, please. Claws back in? Thank you.

The OP mentioned high humidity and that can be a problem with water-cooled lasers. As the OP is just starting out, I thought it might be worth mentioning, as IF he had a water-cooled laser and IF he didn't already know then it's valuable info. Don't take my word for it....here's Synrad on the subject:

http://www.synrad.com/Manuals/Technical%20Bulletins/TB12_Prevent%20Condensation.pdf

It's easily dealt with by
1) Keeping the chiller temperature above the dew point (see above doc for calculations etc.) or
2) Dehumidify the environment, thus lowering the dew point to where it isn't going to be a problem.

And back to the original question...best to use a notebook that you keep near your laser. It's always accessible and it's just less hassle than database/spreadsheet/text file/video in imax or any computerised method of storage, however low-tech and untidy it may be.

EDIT: Oh yeah- My laser manual says that it's unhappy over 30ºC, but I routinely laser in August where the ambient is 42ºC (with a couple of extra fans and the case off the laser part) and haven't had any problems so far. Mind you, my laser is only 10W...I expect everybody else in the universe will be emitting more heat with their laser, so extra cooling will be required.

EDIT AGAIN: In my original post I wasn't pooh-poohing the idea of a database, just the format. Practically speaking, a notebook/samples is a great deal more useful. Also, you can't take any settings as gospel or being guaranteed to work next time.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Stephen,

It's always better to have too much information instead of too little information when it comes to taking notes on what you did with your laser or how you created the file. Store your data in whatever way works best for you.

I store my settings in a simple text file. An example would be a note that says "White Tin Lid 55/100" which tells me the white tin lid I picked up at a craft store needed 55 speed & 100 power to raster. My notes consists of such comments "2 passes needed" or "400 dpi looked better then 600 dpi" or "remove paper cover" or if I used "blue tape" or "transfer tape" on such items.

I save information in the file itself. There have been times I did something with a lens effect and then months later I wanted to do the same thing, but couldn't remember how I achieved that effect and the "copy lens" did not copy properly. I will include notes that say "contour at .05" so I know which distance I used when creating contours. Another time I had problems with a certain font engraving properly so I had to convert it to curves before engraving. A little note in red in the file was a quick reminder or else I would trash an item once I engraved it as real text.

I also keep samples of test engravings and when I run the test I also engrave the settings as I'm testing it. That way I can quickly look at the item and see what settings I used to achieve the results I'm looking at.

One more thing I do is I always have a camera in the office and I will take photos of the items so I can look at them later. For example I ran some test color fills with different brands of gold acrylic paint. A quick photo and a quick edit of the photo now indicates which brand was used in which test spot. I can easily look at the photo to see which color of gold I want to use instead of searching for the sample piece buried somewhere on my work bench.

[douglas rubio]

Girls, girls, please. Claws back in? Thank you.



LOL! Sorry but I was just instigating, I JUST LOVE how Dan is always on the defensive. Dan, I would have you on my team any day of the week baby.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dan, I would have you on my team any day of the week baby.

Careful, he's water cooled and air cooled :)

[Richard Rumancik]

Stephen, you do need a "database" of some sort for your own machine, whether numerical or samples or both. The normal way to develop it is trial and error. It will probably end up being pretty specific to your machine. And as noted, you will have to tweak settings from job to job (for reasons not always apparent) and as the laser power drops with age.

You will NOT be able to compare values across different brands, nor can you even be sure settings for one model will work for another model within the same manufacturer. If you wanted to kick-start your database you might be able to find someone who has the exact machine that you do, and ask if they will provide you some some settings info. But even then, your (new) 30 watt laser might be putting out 35 watts and their (old) 30 watt might be putting out 24 watts. So at "100% power" there can be quite a variation in the actual energy applied.

Lots of people wish a general database was possible, but until the manufacturers can supply laser systems with true speed and power settings, with speed in inches/sec and power in watts delivered to the material, rather than expressed as a percentage of some ambiguous starting value, I don't think it will be possible.

[Sergio Arze]

I keep my laser engraver settings in a log book. I write down settings such as laser power,speed, and air pressure for each of the materials I work with. Color separation is another good way to keep the settings stored in your PC and you can always go back to your log book to double check;)

[Stephen Hanlon]

Thank you for the number of replies with some great advice...I have read on the Thermark website of how you can set up a "power grid" graphic template which can give you a grid of power vs speed, but in this case you would need to have enough colours to cover the numbers of squares required for the full grid or enough to cover an area that surrounds the "perceived" optimum power/speed setting.

I am liking the idea of a folder with samples and than the settings and notes attached. We have the Laserpro Spirit GX 60W (measured at 94W) and Rowmark have generic settings for their materials for an Epilog 60W and Trotec 60W on their website. We have picked rowmark first, only through convenience of a local supplier. So we have started by using these settings as a starting point and then will go from there.

The other point to make as well is that as a market appears we can work on optimising the settings as we test materials from different suppliers.

All in all I can say that your responses so far have been very helpful and I thank you for that...I will keep you all posted on how I went with the power grid testing graphic.

Regards, Stephen

[Doug Griffith]

I can see a public database of settings being quite helpful. It would have to be more than just that and provide tools to make the data useful on an individual machine basis.

I started programming an online interface a while back and then realized a few things:
1) There were so many variables that it would take quite a bit of time.
2) Some people consider their settings golden and won't "share with the competition."
3) The largest online community of laser users I knew of was Sawmill Creek and stickies were next to impossible to get. A thread promoting the tool would get buried in a day.
4) An advertisement could be ran on SMC but that costs money. Paying for ad space would require charging for the database and SMC users tend to be on the thrifty side.

About the only way I can see a public database of settings happening is if MANY people contribute to it, it's free, it has machine specific tools, and it's promoted by Sawmill Creek.

Just my thoughts since I think about completing it every now and then.

[Michael Hunter]

A database of "best" settings is not likely to work, as there are just too many variables - between similar machines from the same manufacturer, let alone across the range where different makes calibrate their speed, power and dpi settings in different ways.

What I think would be practical and useful is a database of materials giving basic details about engraving and cutting, a starting point for settings (necessarily vague) and SAFETY information - possibly linking to a materials safety data sheet (MSDS) for the material.

Example :

Common name : HDPE
Full name : High Density Polyethylene
Engraving : NO : very poor results as material just melts
Cutting : YES : high speed, medium power, medium frequency
SAFETY : Fire - flares up easily
Notes : Protect both sides of sheet with masking tape


If it was a goer, I would be happy to provide details of the materials that I have tried and used. Trouble is, even at this basic level there are bound to be disagreements - someone somewhere is certain to produce a photo of a stunning engraving on HDPE!

[Dan Hintz]

Stephen,

If your system is 3D-capable, instead of using colors use grayscale and the 3D power settings... you'll get 16 power blocks to test with, that way, not the 8 usually seen with color.

[Dave Johnson29]

Humidity tends to affect water-cooled tubes more often because the cooling water helps moisture-laden room air to condense on everything.

Dan,
Care to elaborate on that. A bit of research on evaporation and dew points might change your mind. I have one water system (50W) and one air system (25W) and I am converting the air one to water.

If it is a refrigerated cooling system then things might be closer to what you suggest.

I just want the facts, ma'am. <-- Jack Webb in Dragnet TV series.

[Doug Griffith]

A database of "best" settings is not likely to work, as there are just too many variables - between similar machines from the same manufacturer, let alone across the range where different makes calibrate their speed, power and dpi settings in different ways.

What I think would be practical and useful is a database of materials giving basic details about engraving and cutting, a starting point for settings (necessarily vague) and SAFETY information - possibly linking to a materials safety data sheet (MSDS) for the material.

Example :

Common name : HDPE
Full name : High Density Polyethylene
Engraving : NO : very poor results as material just melts
Cutting : YES : high speed, medium power, medium frequency
SAFETY : Fire - flares up easily
Notes : Protect both sides of sheet with masking tape

If it was a goer, I would be happy to provide details of the materials that I have tried and used. Trouble is, even at this basic level there are bound to be disagreements - someone somewhere is certain to produce a photo of a stunning engraving on HDPE!

I think a collective database of any sort would be useful to us all. The problem is that it will not get found or used if not promoted.

Also, if there is enough public/end user data in the database then it would be possible to give "best guess" settings as a starting point. For example, an average could be calculated for a given set of public variables (ie. machine/speed/power/freq/material...), then a formula could be applied based on the end users settings history. It wouldn't even be that much programming. The interface that makes all the data easily accessible is the pain.

I would do it if I knew it would be a sticky in the laser forum.

[Dan Hintz]

If it is a refrigerated cooling system then things might be closer to what you suggest.
Refrigerated... room temp water won't have such an issue, but it also will not have the cooling capabilities many might want for a high-power system (50W+) that runs on a continual basis.

[Richard Rumancik]

..I have read on the Thermark website of how you can set up a "power grid" graphic template which can give you a grid of power vs speed, but in this case you would need to have enough colours to cover the numbers of squares required for the full grid or enough to cover an area that surrounds the "perceived" optimum power/speed setting.

Stephen, if you need more samples you can just create 2 files and run them consecutively. But I don't think you will need a "wide" range of settings. I think you will find the usable settings bunched up. For example, if you want shades of grey, you don't need 50 samples of grey in 2% increments. You may find out that anything less than say 30% is not even useful on a particular material.

The power grid plot is useful when setting up a new job (or repeating an old one). Just set your project file, bring in the settings file, but plot the "power grid" sample first to confirm the laser will deliver what it did last time. If not, find out why - or give up and tweak the settings.

To demonstrate how difficult it is to provide across the board settings, visit this page:
http://www.rowmark.com/MARK/laser_guide/pages/intro.asp

You will have to go 3/4 of the way down the page to SAMPLE SETTINGS (but you may find the other material interesting too.)

Notice how the three machines (which are supposed to be approximately the same power) use widely different settings values. That is because the numbers are quite unique to a machine/manufacturer. (Unfortunately one machine had a different lens.)

I think Rowmark now prefers to give machine-specific guidelines such as what you see here:
www.rowmark.com/MARK/techhelpdocs/general_laser/laser%20settings.asp

I did notice that in the tables, different colors of material may require different settings. I have found that myself - I raster Flexicolor in both Black/white and Red/white, and they do not raster the same. Same with cutting acrylic - different colors = different settings.

Your solution of using a power grid test plot and a sample book, (along with a notebook/computer file of past settings) will work fine.

Check out this old thread as well: www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=95247

[Stephen Hanlon]

Thanks Dan I'll give it a trial in the next couple of weeks...