Whirlwind, A new Saw Stop device?

[Dave Lehnert]

Was looking at this system tonight.
The one issue I have, It is a saw guard based device and the big problem with any table saw user is to get them to use a guard at all. The Saw Stop does not require the use of a guard at all.

What are your thoughts?

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/

[John Coloccia]

They didn't say much about it other than "...stops the saw blade in one second." Honestly, that's not really getting me excited. What's cool is that it looks as though it may be a retrofit on existing saws, and might catch a fair number of absentmindedly running the thumb through the blade type accidents, and that's always a good thing.

Tell you what I really want is a bandsaw brake. I want a device that keys off the tension on the wheels, and when that blade snaps I want it to snap closed and stop the blade. Stopping when I touch it with my finger's good too, but I'm a lot more concerned about a bandsaw blade flying out into who knows where.

It's nice to see that other companies are starting to take a serious look at these kinds of devices.

[Van Huskey]

Saw this on another forum last week and watched the video. Seems to be a good idea if the cost doesn't shoot signifcantly above a Brett guard et al. Since it isn't a commercial product as of now there is no way to know.

I think most non-industrially used SS probably have the guard on almost all the time, these people bought the saw for safety and not likely to short cut it. If they bought the SS as a short cut to safety something else in their shop will eat their fingers soon enough.

I like overarm guards much better than ANY other type and although it is not a SS brake by any measure it is an extra feature between you and the blade.

I am also curious what slows the blade, it almost appears the wood itself provides the braking friction.

[Ben Rivenbark]

Well, it says it stops the blade in one second. How long does it take to cut off a finger again? Sawstop is four times faster than an airbag.

[Joe Wiliams]

Well, it says it stops the blade in one second. How long does it take to cut off a finger again? Sawstop is four times faster than an airbag.
I've only watched the first two vids so far...

The difference with this system is the blade stops when the finger is 'close' to the blade rather than touching the blade. It also appears the blade is still usable after an activation.

[Van Huskey]

Well, it says it stops the blade in one second. How long does it take to cut off a finger again? Sawstop is four times faster than an airbag.


Your point? No one claims it is a replacement for the SS, in and off itself a properly used overarm guard will do a much better job preventing oen from ever touching the blade, with even a one second stop (which I agree is quite enough time to do damage) it is still an excellent retrofit. To be honest I would rather have a good high quality over arm guard than a blade brake. Most people who have never used one won't get that many that have will understand what I mean. It is just like I would rather driive a car that helps me avoid an accident than reduce the damage once it happens, having both would be better though so SS with a Brett guard, yep thats the ticket.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm glad to see other people developing equivalent safety technology. Hopefully, we'll have some choice soon.

Mike

[Ben Rivenbark]

Hi Van, in the original post, the question was asked "What are your thoughts?", so I posted my thoughts.

The title of the thread, as well as the fact that this is a new blade-stopping system leads me to compare the whirlwind to the saw stop. Let's face it; any new blade brake system is going to be compared to a saw stop for the foreseeable future.

The sheer speed of the blade brake on the sawstop impresses me every time I see that video. In the shop, accidents happen in the blink of an eye, so an ideal safety system should be able to intervene faster than the blink of an eye, which is where the whirlwind falls short.

I do think that the whirlwind will prevent table saw accidents, but there will most likely be some accidents even with the whirlwind. If I could pick between the two, then I'd choose the sawstop.

I hope this clears up any questions about "my point". If you have any other questions about my point please let me know.

That aside, I do think the whirlwind is neat and innovative, and it'd be nice to try out.

[Chip Lindley]

The Whirlwind Guy presents an interesting idea. An idea whos time has come, as a retrofit for any existing table saw. A nice overarm guard is a good addition to any decent TS, and it's use is easier to swallow if it doubles to capture lots of above-the-table dust off the blade! The one-second stop time sounds sufficient IF a body part must cross a No Flesh Zone before entering the blade.

At least this new approach will give SawStop some competition. The SawStop solution cannot be retrofitted. One must buy a brand new expensive TS to acquire the SS technology. If nothing else, competition will drive the price of new SawStops downward. Competition may spell doom for SS, if anybody can adapt "SecondStop" technology to their already paid-for table saw!

[johnny means]

I think he's got a few really novel ideas there. The stackable auxillary fence is definitely something I would like to have. And though I think anti-kickback pawls are useless and nothing a hinderanse, his idea for a release is long over due.

His prototype is obviously not ready for the public, but I think it shows promise. Especially for the production environment where a saw operator may do nothing but rip short pieces all day long.

[Dave Lehnert]

I also like the fact it can be adapted to an older saw. One thing that was hard for me, being a Shopsmith owner, was the fact other manufactures do not make the upgrades available. Everything Shopsmith comes out with is also available as an upgrade.

[Alan Schaffter]

I've only watched the first two vids so far...

The difference with this system is the blade stops when the finger is 'close' to the blade rather than touching the blade. It also appears the blade is still usable after an activation.

Well not quite exactly, it doesn't have a "proximity" sensor, it has a "contact" sensor. "Close" means your finger or other body part must touch a sensor strip that runs along the sides and front of the Lexan guard. You can see it if you look closely at the video. Also the braking is done by applying reverse current or DC braking to the motor, not a mechanical force to the blade or motor.

I wish him well, but based on the "not invented here" attitude of the major machine manufacturers and their resistance to the S/S, they will not likely bite. Due to the cost of liability coverage, accessory manufacturers or vendors may be unlikely to bite as well.

[Van Huskey]

I hope this clears up any questions about "my point". If you have any other questions about my point please let me know.



Now I see your point, the last post was a collection of thoughts that left the reader to determine what your point was.


In the end it is a great idea allowing that it is not idiot proof, a good overarm is a safety device that if properly used would probably save as many fingers as blade brakes but they take some getting used to and aren't idiot proof. Quite frankly although I love the direction he is going in I think the price will stall it, I honestly don't see any significant across the board finger saving device until SS's patents run out.

[Joe Wiliams]

Well not quite exactly, it doesn't have a "proximity" sensor, it has a "contact" sensor. "Close" means your finger or other body part must touch a sensor strip that runs along the sides and front of the Lexan guard. You can see it if you look closely at the video. Also the braking is done by applying reverse current or DC braking to the motor, not a mechanical force to the blade or motor.

I wish him well, but based on the "not invented here" attitude of the major machine manufacturers and their resistance to the S/S, they will not likely bite. Due to the cost of liability coverage, accessory manufacturers or vendors may be unlikely to bite as well.
Thanks for the clarification...

[Alan Schaffter]

[QUOTE=Ben Rivenbark;1308110]

I hope this clears up any questions about "my point". If you have any other questions about my point please let me know.

[QUOTE]

Now I see your point, the last post was a collection of thoughts that left the reader to determine what your point was.


In the end it is a great idea allowing that it is not idiot proof, a good overarm is a safety device that if properly used would probably save as many fingers as blade brakes but they take some getting used to and aren't idiot proof. Quite frankly although I love the direction he is going in I think the price will stall it, I honestly don't see any significant across the board finger saving device until SS's patents run out.

Yup, you know what they say, those who try to make something idiot-proof, woefully underestimate the ingenuity of idiots.

[mreza Salav]

Pros:

- Good to have other options
- Good that it can be installed on many machines.

Cons:
- this one seems has a long way to go to be used by people: it looks bulky and I am not sure many people will want to use it

- 1 second is too long for an accident; have heard quite a few stories of a kick-back which pulled the operators hand onto the blade and cut off a few fingers. That happens in small *fractions* of a second.

[Glen Butler]

It would be nice if there were safety devices on other equipment, particularly shapers. It would be easy to have something of a wheel in the cabinet with a brake device on it. The brake doesn't have to be the blade or bit itself just a wheel somewhere in the drive train.

[David Butler]

Just now found this thread! I had just about given up on the forum because my post kept disappearing. Today I read that posts directing members to a website is against the rules here, so I guess my posts were deleted and I will refrain from trying to post with a link. I am far from web forum savvy and don't get much of the lingo.

These discussions and feedback are of great value to me so let me offer a response or two. Yes, 1 second is a long time compared to SawStop, but this is a much different approach. 1 second is not a long time if there is a physical barrier between the blade and the operator. Many tests here have shown that one would have to really work at it to contact the blade without first triggering the brake. Push sticks etc., will not trigger the brake and we've not had one false trigger (except when cutting acrylic) since changing the circuit in early 2009. Also of note: we have been unable to generate a kickback with the guard in place in spite of many tries.

Because of patent-pending status, I cannot yet share full details, but I hope that will be possible in several months time. These are all advanced prototypes and certainly not quite ready for prime time. Cost, I cannot yet estimate. Finally let me add, I do not view Whirlwind so much as a competitor to SawStop, which is a fabulour product. Instead, I view it as just one more approach to the problem. Thank you everyone for your constructive criticism. We've gotten huge traffic on the website and unfortunatly I cannot answer all the individual emails. That is why I would like to become more adept at using these forums.
Best to all here -- work safely. David

[Jeff Willard]

...but I'm a lot more concerned about a bandsaw blade flying out into who knows where.


I think your concerns are unfounded.

[John Coloccia]

I think your concerns are unfounded.

Surely I'm not the only one that's seen a bandsaw blade snap and squirt out a couple feet of blade before something finally stops it?

[Steve Clardy]

I've had a few of them squirt out when I had my WM bandmill.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

AWESOME!!

Some other company to bash other than Sawstop. I get tired of those anti safety folks, trying to convince others that they are better off without a Sawstop.

[Ray Newman]

"Yup, you know what they say, those who try to make something idiot-proof, woefully underestimate the ingenuity of idiots."
--Alan Shaffter

BINGO!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I consider my tablesaw as the most hazardous machine in my home shop.

It's the potential of kick back that can launch a board at me with blazing speed. Of the two kickback incidents I've experienced over the years, they were the result of the sudden release of stresses within the board while being ripped such that it created a bow in the piece while it was between the blade and the fence.

The only effective technology that I know of to prevent kickback is the riving knife which stays close to the blade. But, I suspect this device has its limitations. Also, there is no retrofit available for older machines with splitters.

I have found that the sheet metal pawls on my standard splitter often created an increased hazard while ripping thinner stock, or when the trim-off waste is narrow, thus binding in the pawl mechanism during the cut.

Other aftermarket attachments, like Shophelpers, feather boards, Grrippers and push sticks, all have limitations upon considering all the ways my home shop tablesaw may be used (ripping, crosscutting, narrow stock, sheet goods, dado, tenons, cove cutting, etc.). Also, European sliding tablesaws are beyond my financial and spatial limitation as I suspect is the situation for most home hobbyists.

The North American style tablesaw's fundamental safety design has been stagnant for too long. I'm glad to see these safety innovations.

-Jeff :)

[jerry nazard]

Just now found this thread! I had just about given up on the forum because my post kept disappearing. Today I read that posts directing members to a website is against the rules here, so I guess my posts were deleted and I will refrain from trying to post with a link. I am far from web forum savvy and don't get much of the lingo.

These discussions and feedback are of great value to me so let me offer a response or two. Yes, 1 second is a long time compared to SawStop, but this is a much different approach. 1 second is not a long time if there is a physical barrier between the blade and the operator. Many tests here have shown that one would have to really work at it to contact the blade without first triggering the brake. Push sticks etc., will not trigger the brake and we've not had one false trigger (except when cutting acrylic) since changing the circuit in early 2009. Also of note: we have been unable to generate a kickback with the guard in place in spite of many tries.

Because of patent-pending status, I cannot yet share full details, but I hope that will be possible in several months time. These are all advanced prototypes and certainly not quite ready for prime time. Cost, I cannot yet estimate. Finally let me add, I do not view Whirlwind so much as a competitor to SawStop, which is a fabulour product. Instead, I view it as just one more approach to the problem. Thank you everyone for your constructive criticism. We've gotten huge traffic on the website and unfortunatly I cannot answer all the individual emails. That is why I would like to become more adept at using these forums.
Best to all here -- work safely. David

David,

Welcome to the Creek and thank you for posting. I did see your videos on another site and was quite impressed. I'm still nursing a busted thumb from a RAS kickback last summer, so any mention of shop safety quickly gets my attention. Please keep us up to date on your development and marketing of Whirlwind.

-Jerry

[Chris Kennedy]

It has me interested. I like the idea of a retrofit that increases the safety. I am not wild about walking around to the back of the saw to finish a rip, though. I always feel that I can better hold the stock to the fence at the front better than the back.

I will be interested to see what it costs when it goes into production.

Cheers,

Chris

[jerry nazard]

It has me interested. I like the idea of a retrofit that increases the safety. I am not wild about walking around to the back of the saw to finish a rip, though. I always feel that I can better hold the stock to the fence at the front better than the back.

I will be interested to see what it costs when it goes into production.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris,

Glad you mentioned the walk-a-round on the rip. I've done that before, but the reason escapes me. It must have been a LONG time ago. I presently have an overhead guard, and I use an offset push stick for narrow rips.

I'm trying to write this with the Cardinals-Packers game going on the tube. Kind of hard to concentrate with Arizona tearing up the field....

Later,

-Jerry

[Callan Campbell]

Just now found this thread! I had just about given up on the forum because my post kept disappearing. Today I read that posts directing members to a website is against the rules here, so I guess my posts were deleted and I will refrain from trying to post with a link. I am far from web forum savvy and don't get much of the lingo.

These discussions and feedback are of great value to me so let me offer a response or two. Yes, 1 second is a long time compared to SawStop, but this is a much different approach. 1 second is not a long time if there is a physical barrier between the blade and the operator. Many tests here have shown that one would have to really work at it to contact the blade without first triggering the brake. Push sticks etc., will not trigger the brake and we've not had one false trigger (except when cutting acrylic) since changing the circuit in early 2009. Also of note: we have been unable to generate a kickback with the guard in place in spite of many tries.

Because of patent-pending status, I cannot yet share full details, but I hope that will be possible in several months time. These are all advanced prototypes and certainly not quite ready for prime time. Cost, I cannot yet estimate. Finally let me add, I do not view Whirlwind so much as a competitor to SawStop, which is a fabulour product. Instead, I view it as just one more approach to the problem. Thank you everyone for your constructive criticism. We've gotten huge traffic on the website and unfortunatly I cannot answer all the individual emails. That is why I would like to become more adept at using these forums.
Best to all here -- work safely. David
Thank you for all your hard work, I wish you the best of luck in your efforts. please keep all of us informed on your progress

[Mike OMelia]

It looks to me to be an idea where the blade stops before you get too close. Thus, it does not have to stop 4 times faster than an airbag deployment. I like it.

Mike

[Chip Lindley]

I am not wild about walking around to the back of the saw to finish a rip, though. I always feel that I can better hold the stock to the fence at the front better than the back.

Don't Do It! Absolutely no reason to walk around to the rear of the saw to finish any cut...unless...you are too lazy to provide any sort of table or rollers for out-feeding long stock. Working behind a running TS is No Man's Land. If a kickback is triggered, imagine how you may be violently jerked into the blade and become INVOLVED!

There is NO control of a cut, behind a TS! Stay Up Front. The use of push sticks, hold-downs or featherboards negates the chance of getting fingers anywhere near the blade. (guard or no guard)

[Maurice Ungaro]

Just now found this thread! I had just about given up on the forum because my post kept disappearing. Today I read that posts directing members to a website is against the rules here, so I guess my posts were deleted and I will refrain from trying to post with a link. I am far from web forum savvy and don't get much of the lingo.

These discussions and feedback are of great value to me so let me offer a response or two. Yes, 1 second is a long time compared to SawStop, but this is a much different approach. 1 second is not a long time if there is a physical barrier between the blade and the operator. Many tests here have shown that one would have to really work at it to contact the blade without first triggering the brake. Push sticks etc., will not trigger the brake and we've not had one false trigger (except when cutting acrylic) since changing the circuit in early 2009. Also of note: we have been unable to generate a kickback with the guard in place in spite of many tries.

Because of patent-pending status, I cannot yet share full details, but I hope that will be possible in several months time. These are all advanced prototypes and certainly not quite ready for prime time. Cost, I cannot yet estimate. Finally let me add, I do not view Whirlwind so much as a competitor to SawStop, which is a fabulour product. Instead, I view it as just one more approach to the problem. Thank you everyone for your constructive criticism. We've gotten huge traffic on the website and unfortunatly I cannot answer all the individual emails. That is why I would like to become more adept at using these forums.
Best to all here -- work safely. David

David - Welcome to the Creek! Thanks for your insight to your new idea. As Mike Henderson stated, it is refreshing to get more options for TS safety. Really like the concept - keep us posted.

[David Butler]

I must respectfully disagree, regarding moving to the back of the saw. I began with table saws at about age 12. I'm now 72 and have all my fingers and have never had a serious woodworking accident. In 60 years though I'm usually standing in front, very often I'll stand to the side or to the rear of the saw, depending upon the operation at hand. I was formally trained in a trade school about table saw safety including the need to sometimes shift positions for a safer operation. We all learned to NEVER insiston standing in the front and stretch to lean over the saw blade to follow through on finishing a cut. Much better to reposition to avoid leaning over that blade. Incidentally, I never saw a blade guard in four years at that well-known school!

When working with valuable stock, I will never allow the ripped pieces to fall off the end of the table, and no, I don't have, nor do I need an outfeed table or supports, as they take up too much shop space. If you look again at the Whirlwind videos, you will see that I not only walk around without holding the stock in some cases, but I believe I restart the saw after an emegency stop without even touching the stock! That is due to the stability and safety of the Whirlwind. I could go for coffe or answer the phone and leave the saw running unattended halfway through a cut with the Whirlwind in place, but of course I would never do so. Other woodworkers who have run cuts with the Whirlwind agree, it is very nice to finish the rip and shut down the saw while the enclosure prevents the cut stock from falling on the floor. And finally, I do believe that any kickback is completely impossible with this Whirlwind device in place.

Keep giving me your valuable feedback so I can share with saw manufacturers the community interest in this ongoing table saw safety topic. Regards to all. David

[Van Huskey]

And finally, I do believe that any kickback is completely impossible with this Whirlwind device in place.



If I were you I would be very careful making a statement like that if I planned to be involved in the manufacturing of this device. Even if it were not possible with correct use of the device and correct saw usage IF it is possible for someone to in any way cause a kickback no matter how stupid they are it might come back to haunt you. A binding fence, tight pushblocks past the blade and a gorilla beating on the side of the board are not out of the realm of belief. Always and never are words you get by with as puffery selling poorly made junk on an infomercial but a safety device designed in part to prevent a life threatening hazard may well be judged harshly despite the operators idiocy. It just doesn't feel prudent to claim this without the saw being operated remotely. I do not doubt it is extremely effective at preventing KB but if there is a one in a billion chance of something going wrong feel comfortable there will be someone that figures out the recipe of disaster!


Van

PS I wish it was on the market now, I am in the process of looking for a new overarm guard. Also make sure the dust capture is VERY VERY good, in the current climate it appears wood workers are sometimes more afraid of dust fines than 3600 RPM finger chompers. I would go as far as having objective and demonstrative testing compared to other guards and the better OEM guards (ie SS) because dust collection alone can sell a overarm gaurd.

[David Schmaus]

Look like something you could pick up at the flea market....

[Dino Makropoulos]

Also of note: we have been unable to generate a kickback with the guard in place in spite of many tries.

David

Mr Butler,
Good Luck.


Welcome to the forum and I will send you an e-mail to visit
another forum where you can talk and educate more people
about your invention.

[Van Huskey]

Look like something you could pick up at the flea market....


Well it IS preproduction!!! Further I assume you aren't really familiar with many of the commercial overarm gaurds, they don't really look like they came out of NASA.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Does it tilt with the blade?

Did the blade leave a burn or gouge/mark after letting it spin without the wood moving?

[Maurice Ungaro]

Look like something you could pick up at the flea market....

This forum is used to a better level of courtesy and manners amongst its members.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Guys, let's keep emotions under control. Saw Stop threads tend to get out of control quickly. Keep it on the subject matter and we can happily discuss the merits and shortfalls. Else one of your friendly neighborhood mods may have to pull this off the forum.

[Van Huskey]

Does it tilt with the blade?

Did the blade leave a burn or gouge/mark after letting it spin without the wood moving?


The first question I am interested in.

The second is a non-issue for me but I would think that would have a lot to do with the saw/fence/blade/wood combo than the guard itself from what I can see.

[David Butler]

Thanks Van! You must be a lawyer, I usually take a lawyer's view too. (:-o) If you review near the end of the Whirlwind DELTA video, you will see some pretty wild movement of the stock in attempting a kickback. So long as the stock cannot be lifted by the upcoming teeth, there can be no kickback initiated. That, and other reasons is why the enclosure is locked in place. Having said so, your point is well taken in these days of non-stop litigation. Regards.

[Chris Padilla]

Looks pretty cool to me. Understandably, a lot of the details were left off showing how it works. I look forward to more information on it and good luck!

[mark r johnson]

I modified my cabinet saw a few years ago with a quick spin down motor. Stops within a second or two by just hitting the stop button. It's not a new concept. Studies have shown fingers are most often cut off after the motor has been shut off and before the blade stops. I've always wondered why that was not standard issue. Sounds like they have done the same thing by adding a motor controller.

I like the concept of collecting dust from the top of the saw, but I never found one I like. They're too wide and for me to lift them to rip narrow boards. I also have troubles seeing the blade through them; I want to know where the blade is along with my fingers. Hope someone solve those issues...

Never walk behind the saw while in operation. Using a push stick and raising the guard is much safer.

[David Butler]

Thanks to all woodworkers here for your many constructive comments and feedback regarding our Whirlwind prototypes which are still rapidly moving forward with exciting new developments. Hopefully I can share these developments with you in the very near future, while also closely adhering to the strict patent rules.

I am afraid I don't understand web forums very well, because I've no forum experience and I therefore don't understand the many forum rules and protocols, which seem very important to those who work hard to develop these wonderful sharing venues.

Still, I wonder, if I am simply SPAM, according to some comments. I've actually got 60 years of fairly high-end woodworking experience to share. But, under forum rules, am I allowed to suggest you Google or YouTube "flesh sensing technology" or "whirlwind tool" which CNN/YouTube mentioned on sidebar under New Technology Trends 2009 - CNN? If so, that will bring you to my simple PATENTS PENDING website? Is my interesting Whirlwind technology patent pending promotion just spam or too commercial for this or other forums? I hope not, but maybe some good person here can enlighten me. Work safely!

My best to all,

David Butler

[Bruce Page]

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Section E answers your question.

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