Table Saw Analysis Paralysis

[Rob Steffeck]

I'm in the market for a new cabinet saw. I have a few upcoming projects where my current saw just won't cut it, both literally and figuratively. My current table saw is far too underpowered to handle some 8/4 brazillian cherry I have to rip. The fence is also no where near precise enough to rip 13 foot lengths of WRC and AYC into 1/4" strips.

I spent the past few months reading SMC and other forums, articles, magazines, etc in trying to determine what I should get. For ~$3,000 range, as you'd expect, that lead me to PM2000, Unisaw, and the Sawstop PCS. Finally, two weeks ago, I decided to jump on a PM2000 3hp w/ lift before this year's PM price increase. Fast-forward to today and the saw is on backorder with no estimated date of availability according to the vendor. Word of advice...place you order via the phone and confirm the availability or else your money can get tied up for almost two weeks, which is the point I'm at now. They were quick to charge my card, but the customer service for the cancellation / refund is poor at best.

Since I need to get started on my projects and wasn't really tied to the PM2000 for anything other than saving a few hundred bucks, I'm revisiting the other two contenders: Unisaw vs. Sawstop PCS

Safety feature aside, the saws stack up to each other fairly well from what I've seen and read. I'm not really a fan of the blade brake and all the electronics on the SawStop. I'm sure it works well, but my fear is that it just adds complexity. I also worry about false triggering of the brake. Here is a scenario that I can easily envision happening. Lets say I have some relatively wet wood to cut. According to the Sawstop manual, you should do a conductivity test which entails making your first cut in bypass mode. In bypass mode, you will get some light indicators telling you if the material is conductive enough to engage the brake. If you get no lights, you are good to go in normal mode. What if the part of the wood I cut in my conductivity test was the driest part of my board? I could get a brake engagement on future cuts. Lets take the other side of that scenario. Lets say my conductivity test shows that the wood is too conductive and that cuts must be made in bypass mode. Bypass mode must be engaged EVERY time you start the motor. So if I have to make 10 different cuts to that board that require some fence adjustments or something where the saw has to be turned off, I have to remember to activate bypass mode each time. I can easily see myself forgetting to engage bypass mode when doing repetitive cuts.

I've read a lot pro-SawStop posts from people who say they'd re-buy their SawStop even if it didn't have the brake. Those are the people I'd like to hear from.

I like the Unisaw for its heritage and thats its made in the USA (for the most part). I like *some* of the new redesigned Unisaw features (adjustibility of the riving knife height and moving the blade further back on the saw). Like SawStop, their customer service gets great reviews. However, there does seem to be a bit more plastic on the new Unisaw. Ex. the motor access panel / cover.

SawStop is located in Tualatin, OR. I live in Tualatin so I'd be supporting a local business. Not to mention that I could possibly give Steve Gass a kick in the pants if I have any issues. Another concern I have about SawStop is the longevity of the company. If they ever do get consumed by WMH and the design changes, will I ever be caught without parts?

I like clear-cut answers. I don't have one in this case and its driving me crazy. From re-reading my post, I'm inclined to say it looks like I'm leaning in the Unisaw direction. Can anyone add any thoughts / comments / etc.

Thanks in advance - Rob

[Jim O'Dell]

Not going to help a whole lot, probably muddy the waters a little more. Have you considered the General 350R/650R? Made in Canada. Awesome machine. It would be in your range. Also, someone was mentioning about the PM2000 with a Baldor motor in the 2200.00 range the other day...can't remember if it was here or not. Seems that there was a limited number of them. It would have been here, Family Woodworking, or WoodNet. You might search each and see if it pops up. Jim.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Rob - you can't go wrong with any of your finalists. Go with your gut, or play rock-paper-scissors, or whatever. You will be fine however your decision turns out. You are overdriving your headlights, IMO.

[from a Unisaw owner + fan, PM owner +fan]

[michael case]

I just posted this on another thread started by someone thinking about the Sawstop cabinet saw: Let me help you make your decision based upon real life experience. Let me detail by comparison why I recommend the Sawstop. Lets put the safety feature aside and look at the Sawstop as a saw. Lets compare it head to head with the Powermatic 66. I've owned both the Powermatic 66 and the Industrial Sawstop and so I actually know what I’m talking about (well maybe about this anyway). The Powermatic 66 is often held up as the gold standard. Well then the Sawstop is the platinum standard. I purchased PM 66 back in 2002. The table flatness was on the 66 was not as good as the Sawstop. I went over the 66 with a Lee valley straight edge and its was off by a 1/32" corner to corner! Not only is the Sawstop table far more accurately machined it is also thirty inches wide. The 66 table is attached to the cabinet with three inboard bolts. You adjust it by loosening the bolts and shifting the table as best you can. Tighten it up, and of course it shifts. You get to loosen the bolts and try again and again. All table saws have this defect except the Sawstop. The Sawstop table is held in place by eight (yes 8!) outboard bolts and moves on a centered boss. The table has two set screws that allow you to dial it in to absolute zero. No more banging the table back and forth because the set screws hold the table in place while you tighten up the bolts. The wings on my 66 drooped and had to be laboriously shimmed. Again this is a defect common to many saws. The wings on the Sawstop were true and needed no shimming. The miter slots of the 66 were not truly parallel to each other. This is also a common defect on many saws. It causes any truly tight and accurately made crosscut sled to bind. The miter slots on the Sawstop are dead true to each other. The fence on the 66 moves under pressure on the end (see Fine Woodworking review) The Sawstop fence has been rated the most rigid. Poor quality was evident in the tilt mechanism on my 66. The rack with the gear teeth was very crudely cast varying wildly between 5/8" to 3/4" and was not machined except for the teeth. It had concave milling but it was out of line with the worm by almost 1/4". This meant that instead of the worm getting a full swipe contact with the gears it only caught the edge. All the wear was on one small point of the teeth, thus defeating the whole purpose of the concave machining. There was no fix. The rod that holds the gear runs through an iron block that has no adjustments. The tilt mechanism on the Sawstop is vastly superior to the 66. The rack is much, much, heavier than the 66 and its faithfully cast. Its precisely machined to a full 1 1/8" wide and wraps the larger worm dead center. As a result of the size and precision lavished on it, the tilt mechanism is as smooth as silk. The raising mechanism is unique and works with a power assist gas piston and a massive steel post. It is also very smooth. Most importantly, though I was never satisfied with the run out and crude cuts the 66 produced. Before I sold it I ripped a piece of white oak with a Freud glue line rip blade and saved it. I took the same piece and the same blade and ripped the other side of the piece with a Sawstop industrial. The finish of the cut produced by the Sawstop was far, far smoother than the 66. The 66 has no riving knife. The Sawstop has a beautiful riving knife. Its heavily chromed. Even the cam faces on the handle that locks the riving knife are heavily chromed. The hand cranks are heavily chromed. The 66, along with other saws, access the interior with plastic cowlings (the 66 ‘s cowling is unbelievable flimsy and crude) The Sawstop has a hinged steel cowling with quality latch, as well as a quality steel door on the right also with a quality latch. And of course there is the matter of manuals. The spiral binding, color photos, and logical grammatical English of the Sawstop manual has no peer. And lets not forget about customer service. Sawstop people (real people!) answer their phones starting at 6:00 am PST. This way they can answers calls from the east coast at 9:00 am EST. They have always answered for me by the third ring. Ask anyone about reaching Powermatic customer service! A half an hour on hold is standard. Overall the Sawstop is a superior saw because of its features as a saw. It is the most well and truly made saw I've seen. Oh! the Sawstop also a fantastic safety feature too.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=1306151)

[Van Huskey]

I posted about the PM2000 Limietd edition here copy of my post:


A few weeks ago I began chasing the elusive PM2000 50" CSA version some sites had up for 1999, but alas they were all gone so I continued to look and found what I think is about the best deal going currently:


equipmentsalesandservice.com has the PM2000 limited edition 50" with single phase Baldor motor for $2245 plus 95 shipping with residential liftgate. (it shows for more on the site but I was told by Neil when I ask I could "quote" this number) No free WMH shipping since it is not a drop ship they have them in stock, folks in Washington might pick up and save the shipping. It is a couple of hundred cheaper than I found it anywhere without the Baldor and although I would have taken the non-Baldor for $2k, I would be willing to spend and extra 150-200 for it so in the end I am quite happy. I have never ordered from them before and waited until it arrived to post, since the only thing worse than getting taken is bringing others along for the ride. If you order ask for Neil, he is really a nice guy and the "is that the BEST you can do" might help a little...;)


No affiliation just a guy happy he got an American motor as consolation for not getting his PM2K for $2K.



I think they still have a few in stock, don't think you can beat the price from what I saw searching the 2000 shipped deal for the CSA version was great but I missed it.

[scott spencer]

Rob - Welcome to SMC.

Some more mud in the water....have you checked out what Grizzly has in the same price range? I've always been a fan of the General 650...that one would definitely get a good look from me. Also, what is Jet's best offering in your price range?

[Van Huskey]

Let me add I think the SS is an excellent choice also, just wasn't for me. I made my choice without regard to money and if I had been forced to I would have paid SS money for a PM2000. BUT I would not have paid SS money for a new Uni. If the PM is out of the running I say the SS is the only choice at the price point. I would not hesitate to recommend a SS PCS to anyone.

[Greg Wittler]

I was also going to mention the General 350 too, I bought a Grizzly G0691 but was looking seriously at the General which they sell locally at a non-discount woodworking store for about $2600. Thought about the new Unisaw but that Made in the USA with US & Foreign parts got me to wondering, Especially at 3000+. Maybe some sheet metal screws were made in the USA? Is is a nice looking saw though.

Greg

[Mike Henderson]

You're probably going to have that saw for a very long time. If I were you, I'd get the SawStop because it's a good saw, and if you make a mistake when using it, it won't cut your finger off.

I plan to purchase a cabinet saw soon and it will definitely be the SS.

Mike

[Jim Andrew]

I had a craftsman before buying my unisaw about 5 years ago, and don't know how I ever got along without the uni. Been shopping for planers, and noticed Grizzly has their tablesaws on sale. Main thing IMO in to get a biesmeier style fence, and use a splitter. I got the shark guard and use it for over the top dust collection, and only take it off for narrow cuts etc. Use my router table to make grooves. Appears the riving knife takes the place of a splitter, never been around a saw with one. Far as cutting a finger off, use a push stick.

[Rob Steffeck]

Thanks for all the replies. Very good SawStop information too. I do plan to have this saw for a very long time so thats why I'm pulling my hair out over this. I had my current saw (BT3000) for over 15 years. But just like my clothes, I've outgrown it.


Have you considered the General 350R/650R? Made in Canada. Awesome machine.

You know, I initially ruled out the General early on in my search, but I can't for the life of me remember why. I think I was under the impression they were out of my price range.

It turns out there is a machinery dealer in Portland that has both the General 650 and the SawStop PCS on the floor. I'm going to head over there tomorrow to do a side by side comparison.

From what I've read on forums, General uses Baldor motors and their fence IS the Biesemeyer without the label. I assume this is all good info. Can anyone confirm that this is true with the new models? The General site doesn't tell me much.


You are overdriving your headlights, IMO.

Ha....my wife would agree with you. My motto is: If something can be done, it can be overdone.

Thanks again for all the info. SMC is an amazing resource.

[johnny means]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks Van! I did a search right before sending my post, but didn't find your info on any of the 3 forums I mentioned. I thought it was here, but wasn't sure.
Like Greg, I also bought the Grizzly G0691. If I had had a budget in the 3 G range, I would have looked seriously at the SS, but it would have been a tough call between it and the revised General with the riving knife. That said, I'm tickled pink (green?:D) with my Griz. It truly is worth more than the price tag on it, even at regular price! Though maybe not quite as prestigious as the other brands we've mentioned here. :rolleyes: Jim.

[Van Huskey]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

I have to say this is one of the most honest and accurate assessment I have seen from a SS owner. I usually wouldn't bother making the argument but the Uni and PM2K are really ICS competition, FWW found the PM to be right there with the ICS (which I do think is a better saw). The PCS IS a compromise from the pure tool point of view (sacrilege here but is really is the truth), but not a large enough compromise for most hobbist to ever care about.

[Rob Steffeck]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

Excellent post. This is the first time I've seen someone mention that the ICS would be the one that is comparable to PM and Uni. Thats very good information.

Regarding "The Mistake", I'm not too worried about that one. I think I've developed very safe habits over the past 20 years with respect to the blade. My concern is that I've become so used to just aligning the fence and reaching to turn on the saw without even looking at the switch. That habit will be the one thats hard to break if I have to enable the bypass each time. But like you said, I may not have to ever use the bypass as much as I'm thinking I would.

[Barry Vabeach]

Rob, just wanted to add that I sold my Ryobi BT3000 to get the SS PCS in the shop ( I still miss the sliding table a little). My take is that for most users, the SS is in the same class as the PM and Uni. The Uni has a nicer changeover from dado to through cuts with the adjustable riving knife - the SS you have tool free insert removal, but you do have to change knives. The above table dust collection on the SS is amazing, I don't know how the Uni and PM compare. Download all 3 manuals, I would be stunned if either the Uni or PM have more fine tuning available. As most posts have conceded, all 3 will do the job ( so did my Ryobi). IMHO, the price premium for the blade brake on SS contractor is pretty steep - on the PCS v. PM v. Uni the premium is insignificant. I don't want to sound like an over the top SS owner, but the ruined blade risk doesn't sound like much to me. If I hit the blade on my PM, or Uni with the miter gauge, I am guessing it is time for a new blade anyway - the only extra cost is the brake cartridge. I bought 2 extra so I have already forgotten that expense. I agree that if wet wood caused the fire, that is a different issue - but the saw has a light that lets you check it first, and I use a crappy blade when I am cutting PT anyway, so its not like I am losing a WWII when I am cutting moist lumber. I can see a few potential downsides, but overall, it is a great saw.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

hmm. interesting. I looked at the new Uni side-by-side with the PCS, and I looked at the PM2000 (although admittedly not a lot). Comparing SS to the Uni, I felt they were very much in the same camp. I'd be curious to know if you've been able to run a PCS, or if you're just theorizing on the performance.

I think I would have been mostly happy with the new Uni....it's a heckuva machine. But if I got the Uni and ever had an accident, I am sure I would have regretted not getting the SS. I got the SS, and frankly cannot ever see regretting not getting the Uni.

[Van Huskey]

hmm. interesting. I looked at the new Uni side-by-side with the PCS, and I looked at the PM2000 (although admittedly not a lot). Comparing SS to the Uni, I felt they were very much in the same camp. I'd be curious to know if you've been able to run a PCS, or if you're just theorizing on the performance.

I think I would have been mostly happy with the new Uni....it's a heckuva machine. But if I got the Uni and ever had an accident, I am sure I would have regretted not getting the SS. I got the SS, and frankly cannot ever see regretting not getting the Uni.

I have used all three no question the basic accuracy and utility is right there the real issue is the long term heavy duty construction. Nothing most hobby shop owners would ever need to be concerned with. Consider FWW's comparison of cabinet saws, they picked the PM2000 to be the equal of the ICS awarding both best tool admittedly the PCS was not available then but just consider how much more of a light weight the PCS is over the ICS and the comparison seems to become more clear. The PCS is no ICS and the ICS is the equal or a slightly better than the PM and Delta. To see the difference in the PCS just look at the table and trunnions again nothing a hobbyist needs to really fret over but there are no free lunches and certainly none at SS. If I needed a cabinet saw to run daily for 30-40 years the PCS would not be on my list the ICS, Uni and PM66/2000/3000 would be, the PCS is built VERY well but not at an industrial standard, but is that really an issue for the OP?

[Paul Ryan]

I have a SS ICS. Quality wise, you couldn't build a better 10" cabinet saw. The only real difference between it and the Powermatic or Delta is the sporty black color (real popular with us younger guys). Oh, and that little safety thingy.

But, in your price range you are not really looking at Sawstop's top offering. You would be in the PCS range which is definitely not in the same class as the PM 2000 or the new Unisaw. Smaller table, less weight, lighter trunnion.The only time it could ever out shine the other two is the day you pushed your finger into the spinning wheel of death.

In my experience (and in my research), I've found that your worries about moist wood are unfounded. Unless, your cutting driftwood that you just fished out the water you won't trigger the brake. Now human error is another thing. I triggered my brake cutting through some pin nails once. Cost me $69.

It is a complicated machine, but I never have to deal with those parts. Kind of like my car I get in, I drive, I have no clue as to what my onboard computer is doing, but I like that it's there.

Switching to dadoing takes a few extra seconds and it is a little bit of a hassle. But really no big deal.

Back to human error, if you admit that you worry about making a mistake and possibly triggering the brake , wouldn't you want to trigger a brake if you made The Mistake.

But like I said we are talking about two different classes of saw here. I cut wood daily and really feel as though I owe myself and my loved ones a little extra assurance, but it is going to cost me a few extra blades and breaks through the years. I probably would have bought the Unisaw if the blade brake wasn't part of the equation. Mainly for the front mounted tilt control. I consider myself a Sawstop evangelist and would rather see someone buy the lesser but safer SS PCS than a Unisaw or PM2000, but must admit that it wouldn't be as enjoyable to work with(by a very small margin)

Most current reviews consider the PCS, new uni, general 350/650 and PM2000 to be in the same class. The table is a little smaller in depth but longer than the other saws. The trunions are a different design using steel and cast instead of just steel. Considered to be equally as strong. But it really doesn't matter. All 4 of the saws run 3k, the ICS will be close to 5k by the time you are done.




Rob,

Don't get yourself too caught up with wet wood. The only wood I have come across that sets the lights to flashing was dripping green treated. I had just brought it home from mendards it was green, green, green, and had been rained on. When I drove screws in it I got squirted in the face. I didn't cut it with the table saw but just put it to the blade. I wouldn't ever cut that with a 3k table saw. Regular green lumber will not even come close to setting off the brake. It is a lot more forgiving than you think. The really wet wood will dry out enough in a few days to cut. The only way I can see a piece of wood being wet enough in the center to set off the brake was if it was pulled out from the bottom of a lake, or if it was recently treated. Wood that is dried but has gotten surface wet. Once dried on the surface will cut with out the bypass needed.

I own a PCS saw and think it is an excellent saw. Dust collection maybe the best of any saws. A deeper table would be nice. But this saw adjusts easier than any other saw I have heard of. The inch in front depth you loose really isn't that big of a deal the more I think about it. To make any sized cross cuts you need a sled anyway. And who care about behind the blade you will have an out feed table so that is really irrelavant. Go to sawstop'ss head quarters and check one it. I think you will be sold. I dont think SS is going any where anytime soon. They are the #1 selling cabinet saw in the country and with this new model will grow even more. Oh and by the way it wont cut yours or anyone elses fingers off. I look at that part as a bonus to an excellent table saw. But it is the reason I bought it.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I think you hit the nail on the head - is it an issue for the OP? as for a saw that will run for 30-40 years.....I'll ask you 30 years from now ;)

I would have to look more into how the trunions of the PCS are built, but to be honest I don't know it matters to me. I am definitely in the hobbyist camp, so I doubt I would ever 'push' any of the saws listed in this thread. I really wonder whether the trunion system on the ICS, needing to handle a 5hp or 7hp motor, by definition needs to be "beefier". In other words, will the 3HP motor on the PCS ever really tax the trunions? My gut feeling is no, but maybe only time will tell.

[Chip Lindley]

Michael, the OP needs a saw now that is in production! You malign the PM66 from your one experience with a 2002 model; a moot point in this thread. The PM66 ceased being produced in 2008; for over 40 years considered The 10" Cabinet Saw to reckon with. I must deduce that you got a lemon, considering all the good reports on the PM66 over at OWWM. (If new, did you consult PM Customer Service on your issues? No satisfaction?)

True, that the saw suffered toward the end, with some imported parts and cheap electricals. But, I truly love my 1998 PM66! Smoooth! I suppose I just made it under the wire! Evidently you did not. I am sorry.

To the OP: sounds like you have much 2" Brazilian cherry to rip. I suggest looking at the Grizzly G0605X 12" cabinet saw. 5/8" and 1" arbors. 5hp, with everything about the saw heavier and larger! And, just over $2K! not $3K!

[Keith Albertson]

Rob, I JUST ordered my SS PCS yesterday after doing all the comparisons you've done, searching for value. I'm confident I made the right choice. I specifically made my decision on value instead of safety, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't over reacting to the safety issue.

I'm an orthopaedic surgeon, and spend 3-4 mights a year working on "regular woodworking guys" who've had their "first accident in 20 years." None of these guys are sloppy woodworkers, but accidents happen. I started to feel a bit like a hypocrit using my Delta contractor's saw when I knew there was something out there that could prevent some of these accidents. But then again, I didn't want to go charging off blindly and spend good money for a safe but crappy saw.

I think I'm getting a great saw for a lot of money, with some added safety built in. I hope to never have to replace this saw, since I am only a home hobbyist, and I think the PCS will be sturdy enough for my needs. The new dust collection should be a bonus as well.

Good luck.

[Keith Albertson]

Just a quick addititonal note. I ordered my PCS from my local Woodcraft which is only 15 mins away. I will have to wait a few weeks. They are able to eliminate the shipping fees if they order a certain number of saws at once. That'l save me a few hundred bucks so I'm willing to wait. If you have a Woodcraft they may have a similar arrangement. Gives me time to re-design the shop for the 5th time!!!!

[Rod Sheridan]

I own a General 650, non riving knife model.

If I were you, I would purchase either the top Saw Stop model, or the General 650R (with riving knife).

The General is built in Canada, and does come with a Bies commercial fence. Incredible saw, smooth, accurate, powerful.

Powermatic equipment wasn't that popular in Canada, however the older Unisaw was, and it's inferior to the General, which is regarded by many as the standard in cabinet saws.

Now that I've told you why I like mine so much, I may as well tell you why it's been sold and replaced with a Hammer B3 Winner.

All the cabinet saws do only one task well, ripping.

You can't square sheet goods, and handling sheet goods is a royal pain unless you start adding on all sorts of homemade sleds, extension tables etc. Been there, done that, getting too old and somewhat smart enough to stop wrestling with sheet goods on a cabinet saw.

The sliding saws are a few generations ahead of the old cabinet saw.

They rip just as well or better than a cabinet saw (my new machine has a 12" blade/4" depth of cut).

They straight line rip rough material using the slider, saves lots of time and effort at the jointer.

They handle full size sheets if you buy the correct model, and can cross cut anywhere from about 50" on the small model I bought to over 100" on the larger machines.

They also dado with a sliding table, no more wrestling while trying to cut dadoes on 30" wide cabinet sides.

They are only as large as you need at the time, with quick remove outriggers, and clip on table extensions, the small machine instantly becomes a far larger machine than a cabinet saw, then converts back to a small machine for the more common tasks.

I really liked the General saw, I think it's the best of the conventional cabinet saws, I'm just not willing to live with the shortcomings any longer.

Happy hunting.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Ryan]

I dont have any experience with the general saws. However the lastest eddition of woodworking journal rated the General 350/650 w/ riving knife low compared to the other saws. The writer of the review sited the smaller table top, poor dust control, small switches, and lack of extras. The sawstop PCS, Delta Uni, PM2000, and general international, all had much more favorable reviews for a $3000 saw.

[Rob Steffeck]

Once again, more great info. I appreciate it.

As far as my need for an industrial quality saw I can say this: I do not need industrial quality today, but in the relatively near future (~2 years) I expect this saw to become part of a business. Even as part of a business it would NOT be used continuously, but definitely more than a weekend warrior. Maybe my future needs could be met with a saw of slightly less quality and longevity, but the difference in price to step up to that level is not that great. That said, I still do have an upper price limit.

That Hammer machine is pretty sweet. I watched the video on their site. The combination spindle / saw with the sled would definitely make life easier. Unfortunately its out of my price range (I'm basing that on finding a used one for $4500). Watching the video also brought to mind one of the main reasons I'd want to go with a Uni-style American cabinet saw: accessories / aftermarket add-ons. Having the BT3000 for the past 15 years left me pretty jealous at times. I can't tell you how many times I'd go in to a woodworking store and see a new jig or accessory and have NO way of adapting it to my saw. I didn't even have standard mitre slots for the first few years. I don't want to get in that situation again. Also, with a more standard design, there are bound to be many other woodworkers who figured out a way to handle a specific problem.

I've found local dealers that have the Uni, SawStop PCS, and the General 650 on the floor so I'll be able to do an in-person comparison of each today. Thanks again.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob ....for the record....the company headquarters for SS might be in OR but the saws are manufactured in either Taiwan or China...I forget which.

That being said.....the few times I've seen a SawStop..it looks like a great saw!

[johnny means]

As far as my need for an industrial quality saw I can say this: I do not need industrial quality today, but in the relatively near future (~2 years) I expect this saw to become part of a business. Even as part of a business it would NOT be used continuously, but definitely more than a weekend warrior. Maybe my future needs could be met with a saw of slightly less quality and longevity, but the difference in price to step up to that level is not that great. That said, I still do have an upper price limit.



If you have any aspirations of ever having employees who may work on your saw, the Sawstop is the only way to go. I have three employees and nothing gives me greater peace of mind than knowing that they won't be lopping off a thumb while ripping drawer faces or whatever.

Personally, I think every employer in the industry should be required to purchase saws with blade brakes from here on out. Not using any reasonably priced, proven safety meeasures is irresponsible when it comes to employers.

[Chet Kagel]

Keith, Thanks for your comments. I've been relying on my past history of having "only" one accident and thinking that I'm cautious enough to not have another. It was a pretty severe kickback incident but no loss of digits or limbs. In light of your post, I'm going to rethink whether my son and I should continue operating my existing table saw or would we be wiser to invest in a safer saw - the Saw Stop. :eek:


Rob, I JUST ordered my SS PCS yesterday after doing all the comparisons you've done, searching for value. I'm confident I made the right choice. I specifically made my decision on value instead of safety, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't over reacting to the safety issue.

I'm an orthopaedic surgeon, and spend 3-4 mights a year working on "regular woodworking guys" who've had their "first accident in 20 years." None of these guys are sloppy woodworkers, but accidents happen. I started to feel a bit like a hypocrit using my Delta contractor's saw when I knew there was something out there that could prevent some of these accidents. But then again, I didn't want to go charging off blindly and spend good money for a safe but crappy saw.

I think I'm getting a great saw for a lot of money, with some added safety built in. I hope to never have to replace this saw, since I am only a home hobbyist, and I think the PCS will be sturdy enough for my needs. The new dust collection should be a bonus as well.

Good luck.

[Van Huskey]

Personally, I think every employer in the industry should be required to purchase saws with blade brakes from here on out. Not using any reasonably priced, proven safety meeasures is irresponsible when it comes to employers.


Although I agree with the sentiment to some extent, the fact is most production shops could use something besides what SS has to offer. If/when SS produces a full sheet slider the point becomes more valid. If production would not be reduced by a standard "cabinet" saw then the ICS is wonderful in a production situation, but I don't think the PCS has the chops for that senario.

[Mike Henderson]

Rob, I JUST ordered my SS PCS yesterday after doing all the comparisons you've done, searching for value. I'm confident I made the right choice. I specifically made my decision on value instead of safety, because I wanted to be sure I wasn't over reacting to the safety issue.

I'm an orthopaedic surgeon, and spend 3-4 mights a year working on "regular woodworking guys" who've had their "first accident in 20 years." None of these guys are sloppy woodworkers, but accidents happen. I started to feel a bit like a hypocrit using my Delta contractor's saw when I knew there was something out there that could prevent some of these accidents. But then again, I didn't want to go charging off blindly and spend good money for a safe but crappy saw.

I think I'm getting a great saw for a lot of money, with some added safety built in. I hope to never have to replace this saw, since I am only a home hobbyist, and I think the PCS will be sturdy enough for my needs. The new dust collection should be a bonus as well.

Good luck.
I have a woodworking friend who's an ER nurse. I took woodworking classes with her and she used to tell tales of people with severe woodworking injuries - people who were "careful old timers, and never had an injury before". Since she was a woodworker, she'd ask them what they were doing and how the accident happened. Mostly, it was just a lapse - a mistake.

She also got a lot of carpenters in with serious injuries but the carpenters, as a group, often did something dumb, like bypass some safety feature (e.g., tying back the blade guard on their circular saw). But that's a whole other discussion.

She'd also bring in pictures of some of the wounds for the woodworking instructor. Not pretty.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

Keith, Thanks for your comments. I've been relying on my past history of having "only" one accident and thinking that I'm cautious enough to not have another. It was a pretty severe kickback incident but no loss of digits or limbs. In light of your post, I'm going to rethink whether my son and I should continue operating my existing table saw or would we be wiser to invest in a safer saw - the Saw Stop. :eek:


I am not trying to be argumentative I really am curious. When cabinet saws became available with riving knives did you get one? I ask this since the best (saw based not brain based) prevention is a riving knife.

I am becoming more and more intersted with the clamor (at least on this forum) to prevent one specific danger in the shop. There doesn't even seem to be as much hype over riving knives which I think overall are a more important safety feature and available at almost all price points and often as a retrofit. Also, I don't see any major effort to sway people away from porkchop guards in favor of euro bridge guards. Don't get me wrong I think that SS is a great saw and has an excellent safety feature but I still find it amusing that there is not an equal campaign for cheaper more available safety features that prevent injuries that are potentially as great a danger. If I had to choose between a riving knife and a blade brake I would take the riving knife and outfit the saw with something like a Brett or Excaliber and consider myself to be working on an overall safer saw (onviously just for illustration since the SS has an excellent RK).

[Mike Henderson]

Perhaps the reason riving knives aren't getting more attention is that all new saws will (or do) have riving knives, but not all new saws have a blade brake.

Mike

[Van Huskey]

Perhaps the reason riving knives aren't getting more attention is that all new saws will (or do) have riving knives, but not all new saws have a blade brake.

Mike



Over the last year there were still tons of saws sold without riving knives, the closeouts of the venerable 1023 is a good example. I saw over and over people be pushed away from a lower priced saw WITH a riving knife toward the 1023 without one, albeit a more capable saw. It just seems diametrically opposed from a logic standpoint compared to the SS arguments that abound.

[Mike Henderson]

Over the last year there were still tons of saws sold without riving knives, the closeouts of the venerable 1023 is a good example. I saw over and over people be pushed away from a lower priced saw WITH a riving knife toward the 1023 without one, albeit a more capable saw. It just seems diametrically opposed from a logic standpoint compared to the SS arguments that abound.
I agree with you on that. My requirements would be first for a riving knife and then for the blade brake. I plan to purchase a cabinet saw sometime soon and the riving knife was a requirement. I had to think long and hard about the blade brake because of the extra cost. My final decision was to go with the SS Professional (not industrial) since I expect it will be the last table saw I'll ever buy. I'll treat the extra cost as the cost of insurance, and like insurance, hope I never need it.

Mike

[Keith Albertson]

I didn't mean to sound preachy, and I don't want to hijack this thread into another safety debate. The points about riving knives are excellent. From my experience, the splitter on my contractor saw drove me nuts....always binding, burning and making me push harder....I removed it because I felt it made me less safe. Then I missed the whole riving knife development.....but it was impossible to miss the hype (and demonstrations) of the Sawstop.

My real point is, why not buy all the safety features you can....as long as you like the saw? The SS has a riving knife and a brake. I'm lucky to have a Woodcraft nearby and could compare the SS, Powermatic, and Unisaw side by side. I did, and was really impressed with the SS. I don't have my SS yet and maybe I'll be singing a different tune later, but everyone I know who has one loves it. Everyone I've operated on wishes they'd had one.

[Van Huskey]

My real point is, why not buy all the safety features you can....as long as you like the saw? The SS has a riving knife and a brake. I'm lucky to have a Woodcraft nearby and could compare the SS, Powermatic, and Unisaw side by side. I did, and was really impressed with the SS. I don't have my SS yet and maybe I'll be singing a different tune later, but everyone I know who has one loves it. Everyone I've operated on wishes they'd had one.

Every SS thread ends up in a safety discussion...:D

I agree but I liked the PM and with fence and guard I have more than PCS money in it, I did not want to spend ICS money but if I had the ICS would be a no brainer because it is the BEST 10" TS on the market without the brake. The Uni and PM2000 are more saw than the PCS anyone that argues otherwise thinks SS is giving away free lunches, just checking saw weight will give you a basic clue without looking under the hood.

The next question to you is just a thought question not one I would ask someone to answer on a forum. Do you drive a S class MB? You would get just about ever safety feature available on a car (just look at them to get an idea what will be standard on all cars in about 15 years) and a LOT more active and passive safety than the vast majority of new cars. Statistically the car is more likely to cause a life threatening injury than a table saw. Now for me I consider safety in a car but buy not just for that, my last car I paid (a lot) more for a GT3 over a Carrera and the GT3 did not have stability control, because for me it was a better car. My point is simply there are a lot more factors than safety.

I do want to say again I think the PCS is a fantastic saw, one that will probably last most hobby owners a lifetime assuming the long term reliability of the electronics, something I have no reason to question.

[bob frost]

Thanks Van! I did a search right before sending my post, but didn't find your info on any of the 3 forums I mentioned. I thought it was here, but wasn't sure.
Like Greg, I also bought the Grizzly G0691. If I had had a budget in the 3 G range, I would have looked seriously at the SS, but it would have been a tough call between it and the revised General with the riving knife. That said, I'm tickled pink (green?:D) with my Griz. It truly is worth more than the price tag on it, even at regular price! Though maybe not quite as prestigious as the other brands we've mentioned here. :rolleyes: Jim.

Jim, aside from the safety feature, how do you rank the pcs with your g691?

[bob frost]

I am not trying to be argumentative I really am curious. When cabinet saws became available with riving knives did you get one? I ask this since the best (saw based not brain based) prevention is a riving knife.

I am becoming more and more intersted with the clamor (at least on this forum) to prevent one specific danger in the shop. There doesn't even seem to be as much hype over riving knives which I think overall are a more important safety feature and available at almost all price points and often as a retrofit. Also, I don't see any major effort to sway people away from porkchop guards in favor of euro bridge guards. Don't get me wrong I think that SS is a great saw and has an excellent safety feature but I still find it amusing that there is not an equal campaign for cheaper more available safety features that prevent injuries that are potentially as great a danger. If I had to choose between a riving knife and a blade brake I would take the riving knife and outfit the saw with something like a Brett or Excaliber and consider myself to be working on an overall safer saw (onviously just for illustration since the SS has an excellent RK).

You are right on Van! I think the SS safety brake gets much more attention because it is so much more "romantic". All the flashing lights and electronics along with the hotdog demo just makes for a bit more excitement . That said , I think also that the Riving Knife is probably a more important safety device.

[Don Morris]

Van Huskey said: "I saw over and over people be pushed away from a lower priced saw WITH a riving knife toward the 1023 without one, albeit a more capable saw."

I have a 1023 and limited budget. If the budget situation were different, I'd get a SS. I agree, though, the riving knife is a very desirable item. One reason I think people are getting the 1023 is that a riving knife can be added inexpensively to this great saw. Years ago I added the Unisaw splitter to my 1023 without any modifications.

[keith micinski]

I really can't think of to many cuts that can't be done with a push stick which totally eliminates the need for any type of blade brake. I really don't know how SS has managed to justify the extra expense to people over a free push stick. I was going to keep quiet till the guy made the comment that every employer should be required to provide a saw with a blade break. I really can't believe that there are reasonable people out there that would say that, but every day I am surprised.
If you based every purchase in your life on safety before everything else you would be broke and probably not all that happy. On a side note, everyone always says "I consider myself safe and am not worried about getting hurt". Well, I consider myself no better at safety then anyone else maybe even a little less then safe at times and I have been doing work for 20 years and have never even come close to having a major injury. It makes me wonder what people are doing when they really do get a serious injury.
Base your saw purchase on the ability of the saw to do the job you need it for. Then look at customer service and reliability.Then look at price and get the cheapest one left standing.

[Mike Henderson]

The next question to you is just a thought question not one I would ask someone to answer on a forum. Do you drive a S class MB? You would get just about ever safety feature available on a car
With cars, you have many degrees of safety devices. You can go low end and get front air bags only. You can buy up a bit and get side curtain air bags. You can get cars with stability control (I think most have it now) and all cars come with anti-lock brakes.

So the buyer can make a tradeoff between price and how much safety they want - or can afford.

You can do that with table saws, but there aren't as many options to choose from, and the premium product doesn't cost a hundred thousand dollars.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I really can't think of to many cuts that can't be done with a push stick which totally eliminates the need for any type of blade brake.
Or put another way, "If you use a push stick you'll never have an accident with a table saw." Ah, if only that were true.

Mike

[keith micinski]

If you are concerned enough about safety to spend 15 to 20 percent more for a saw why would not use a push stick. I also wonder if a blade break doesn't come with its own negatives and dangers in the fact that owners become complacent in all of their saw operations because they are sure the brake technology is always going to protect them. I am not saying safety isn't a great thing to have but I am saying that people saying that safety is the number one factor in their decision to buy a saw is going overboard. Heck some poor guy is worried enough that he is considering not using his saw anymore for fear of being hurt. That is INSANE! Life is full of compromise's, and I am positive that every day he and his son do thing's that are inherently more dangerous then operating a table saw. Take this as an opportunity to teach your son proper woodworking techniques and safety precautions and use it as a life lesson.

[Mike Henderson]

If you are concerned enough about safety to spend 15 to 20 percent more for a saw why would not use a push stick. I also wonder if a blade brake doesn't come with its own negatives and dangers in the fact that owners become complacent in all of their saw operations because they are sure the brake technology is always going to protect them. I am not saying safety isn't a great thing to have but I am saying that people saying that safety is the number one factor in their decision to buy a saw is going overboard. Heck some poor guy is worried enough that he is considering not using his saw anymore for fear of being hurt. That is INSANE! Life is full of compromise's, and I am positive that every day he and his son do thing's that are inherently more dangerous then operating a table saw. Take this as an opportunity to teach your son proper woodworking techniques and safety precautions and use it as a life lesson.
Push sticks are very common and I would guess that most woodworkers use them. And yet we still see table saw accidents.

Telling people to use push sticks is not going to make woodworkers immune from table saw accidents. That's why many people are interested in a blade brake. They operate as safely as they possible can (including using push sticks) but the blade brake is there in case the worse happens.

Same thing with air bags. Hopefully, you'll never have the air bags deploy on your car. But if the worse happens, you're happy they were there.

Mike

[Look at it like this. You buy a saw with a blade brake and you have an accident where you hand comes in contact with the spinning blade. The brake engages and destroys your blade and you have to pay for a new brake - and you're embarrassed that you made a mistake. Or you buy a saw without a blade brake and you have an accident where your hand comes in contact with the spinning blade. You go to the ER and they schedule emergency surgery to sew one of your fingers back on. The ER and surgery costs you thousands of dollars, you can't work for months, and you have permanent limitations in the use of your hand.]

[Aaron Berk]

Michael, the OP needs a saw now that is in production! You malign the PM66 from your one experience with a 2002 model; a moot point in this thread. The PM66 ceased being produced in 2008; for over 40 years considered The 10" Cabinet Saw to reckon with. I must deduce that you got a lemon, considering all the good reports on the PM66 over at OWWM. (If new, did you consult PM Customer Service on your issues? No satisfaction?)

True, that the saw suffered toward the end, with some imported parts and cheap electricals. But, I truly love my 1998 PM66! Smoooth! I suppose I just made it under the wire! Evidently you did not. I am sorry.

To the OP: sounds like you have much 2" Brazilian cherry to rip. I suggest looking at the Grizzly G0605X 12" cabinet saw. 5/8" and 1" arbors. 5hp, with everything about the saw heavier and larger! And, just over $2K! not $3K!


+1 on the 605x

I'm setting mine up as we speak. I upgraded from a crapsman contractor saw. all i can say is WOW! this thing is no feather weight.

[Glen Butler]

Just my .02. With 3k to spend you could do yourself a favor and get the 5hp Powermatic or something else 5hp. I definitely like the power over the 3hp Unisaw. You will like the power once you start cutting that 8/4 Brazilian Cherry. Good luck in your quest for the perfect saw.

[Keith Albertson]

Van, you're right!!!!! I went back over some Sawstop threads and they do ALL end up about safety. Your point about cars is a good one. I can't get my family into a Benz, or a Benz out of my wallet.....so I bought a van with as many safety features as were available. But your point is very valid, made more so because with the saw I'm just protecting against one idiot (me), while with a car you've also got to protect against all the other idiots on the road.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I recently went through the tablesaw decision/buying process. My brain said "Unisaw", but my wallet said "PM2000", which I purchased during a 15% and free shipping offer. I could not be happier with it, and neither could my wallet.

[Ray Newman]

While I like the SawStop blade brake, I think that far too many people think that it is 100% safe and will prevent all TS accidents .

I once asked a salesman who was touting the SawStop safety features if it would stop a kickback. He hemmed and hawed and finally aid no. Must admit SawStop has some slick adverting out there and it seems to also be aimed at women, judging from the number of comments from men who say that spouses told them to buy a Saw Stop. Then you have Charles Nell on one of his videos sbout the SawStop saying “not if it happens, but when”....

While I don’t fear a TS, I have a healthy respect for it. And I think that if a person is afraid of a piece of equipment, that can lead to problems. Wonder when the “BandSaw Stop”, “Jointer Stop,” or “Router Table Stop” will be on the market? Knew a few guys who mangled fingers on them....

I run a circa 1987 Unisaw with the Uniguard and disappearing splitter. The only time I had an accident -- a kickback -- was when I was in a rush & didn’t pull up the disappearing splitter as it was “just one cut“. I didn’t pull it up as when not in use, I keep it below the table and the basket guard folded up so nothing will slide or bang into them. A clear case of operator error.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Ray - I agree with you that a SS will not stop all accidents. However, the riving knife and blade guard are aditional safety features (also found on other saws), so it's not a one-trick pony. A significant amount of marketing is targeted at women, but I don't blame them - and frankly, in my house, out of respect and also fairness, I wouldn't go into a purchase of that magnitude without consulting my wife.

As for Charles Neil....I believe it was 1995 *when* he had a TS accident....caught his left hand in a blade. Out of work for many months, surgeries, etc. So you might want to give what he has to say at least a little consideration...

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, aside from the safety feature, how do you rank the pcs with your g691?

To be honest with you, I didn't really look at the PCS because I knew it was out of my price range. The G0691 wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been on sale, thanks to the slower economy. I have glanced at it, the new Delta, and the PM2000 when in Woodcraft a couple times, but not much more than a pause as I walked by. I had looked at the PM2000 at the local woodworking show when it came out, what 3-4 years ago? I wasn't that impressed with it. I didn't delve into the interior, but I looked at the exterior pretty closely. I haven't done even that with the PCS. My casual glance says it has a slightly better fit and finish. It's a beautiful machine. I didn't even look to see how easy the RK was to change out. I would like to see Grizzly come out with an accessory TK RK. I do have a couple TK blades, one Forrest 30th that has seen the total of about 8' of ripping in a 2 X 4. I'd like to still use that blade. Don't know if SS has a TK version or not. Seems I read that the PM does. I could be wrong there.
Like I said before, if I had had 3k to spend on a saw, it would probably have been between the SS PCS and the General 650R. But that would have started a whole new set of discussions, questions, and I want my hands on it. I wish I had the opportunity to do the hands on with the 691. It would have only solidified my decision that is was the right saw for the money, at least for me. Jim

[David Colafranceschi]

It seems like these discussions are getting very passionate. I'm kind of at a loss. For better than fifty years Unisaws were made that were around the 450 pound mark and had a 1HP R.I. motor early on. Many can still be found today and from what I hear they never bog down from only having 1HP but today we need 5HP minimum to rip 8/4 stock-this is completely false.

While extra mass may have some benefits I think people in General get all wrapped in 'specs' and one product may be a little heavier and 1" wider. I had a 1500 lb sliding saw and it did not rip wood 'better' than a 500 lb cabinet saw. More accurate in crosscutting but not better. I read about manuals being poorly written but if I were to put a new crated cabinet saw in anyone's woodworking shop with no manual magically it would be in service within hours. I believe we all need to justify our purchases and why 'ours' is better than yours. It's like all the married people want to set up single people and get them married just to see them divorce later.

Sawstop looks good but you have to remember one thing-it's insurance and the premium for that is 50%. You can add up all the other things other than the actual stop and if you were to manufacture them and put them on a saw they would not increase the price of the saw 50%. Where I am a cabinet saw is $3000 and a Sawstop is $4500. It's half the price of a euro slider-in my opinion not half the saw of a euro slider.

Every manufacturing process that involves high rpm cutter heads and tooling is inherently dangerous, that will never change. If you feel the risk is too great than buy a Sawstop, if you feel that you can eliminate the risk or minimize it and a regular cabinet saw would do, than buy that. To say that a Sawstop 'cuts better' than a PM2000, Unisaw or General 350/650 is absurd.. To say that it is safer is valid and worth considering. I believe the decisions should be based on that because the construction and 'spec' differences do not warrant a 50% premium.

I believe if we look at injuries they can all be attributed back to operator error-I know, we never want to admit we make a mistake. We never want to admit we were too tired or too stupid at that moment in time. That is human nature-we make mistakes. That is what a Sawstop is for.

To say that it is safer-you are right. To say that it cuts better and is better than other cabinet saws is false. My two cents.

[Ray Newman]

John T: as I said my concern is that far too many people think the SawStop will prevent all TS accidents. And the sales people that I heard talk about the SawStop or those I talked to strong imply that is the case, until you directly ask. Now that could be that they honestly believe that, or they don’t know, or are repeating “the party line” to make a sale.

As for the riving knife/splitter, there are some fools who routinely don’t use them.

Nell -- I am aware of the circumstance, but to me it is too much a scare tactic and have heard it repeated to potential buyers.

“It's like all the married people want to set up single people and get them married just to see them divorce later.”
--David Colafranceschi

Now that is funny and maybe true??....

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

John T: as I said my concern is that far too many people think the SawStop will prevent all TS accidents. And the sales people that I heard talk about the SawStop or those I talked to strong imply that is the case, until you directly ask. Now that could be that they honestly believe that, or they don’t know, or are repeating “the party line” to make a sale.

As for the riving knife/splitter, there are some fools who routinely don’t use them.

Nell -- I am aware of the circumstance, but to me it is too much a scare tactic and have heard it repeated to potential buyers.

“It's like all the married people want to set up single people and get them married just to see them divorce later.”
--David Colafranceschi

Now that is funny and maybe true??....

Sales people are sales people. nothing will change that.

As for the riving knife/splitter....there will always be people that just throw them in a corner and never use them. IMO, SS has made changing back and forth so easy that more people might be inclined to use them.

[bob frost]

Jim, would you mind telling us what the sale price was? I don't recall it being on sale

[Mike Henderson]

Years ago, I used to do a lot of bike riding. One of the helmet makers had this advertising slogan - "If you have a cheap head, buy a cheap helmet."

A modification of that is appropriate to the SawStop - "If you have cheap hands, buy a cheap saw."

Mike

[Rob Steffeck]

I thought I'd circle back to this thread after my weekend of deliberation and in-person scrutiny. Maybe it will help someone in the future.

I saw the SawStop PCS, General 650, and the Unisaw this weekend. Here are my findings:

- the General 650 was built like a tank. The table, trunnions, and body were built of much beefier materials. I think it would be hard denting the metal body even if I tried. The machining on the table seemed to be a step up from the other saws, not to mention the meehanite for the casting (very good SMC post on cast iron by the way: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19751). The Baldor motor is also a major selling point. I read the review of the saw in the Feb. issue of Woodworker's Journal. I found the some of the comments a bit nit-picky. The negatives were things like missing hooks / holders for accessories, lack of end caps on the rails and a dubious rubber latch for the motor door. The thing it fails to mention is that the motor door is one of the few in the review that was made of the same heavy gauge material as the saw body. Also, the machine carries a lifetime warranty for non-professional / non-commercial use (becomes 2 year for professional use). There are some drawbacks to this saw. The table was the smallest of the lot. The blade guard is aluminum, which may be more durable than a plastic guard, but it limits the view of the cut. According to the manual (forgot to look in person), there is no fixed arbor nut or locking mechanism. Blade changes require a block of wood wedged against the blade to keep the arbor from turning. In short, this saw reminds me of older PM66s or very old Unis. It appears to be built with the same quality and durability of a 40 year old machine. Unfortunately it doesn't have too many additional features beyond a 40 year old machine.

- The SawStop PCS, which I've now seen in person four times from three different dealers is definitely impressive. I won't spend a ton of time on this since there is more info on the SawStop out there than any other saw. The quality of the fit / finish is very high. You can tell that a lot of thought went in to this saw beyond the brake. You can also tell a lot of thought went in to the business model. I have never seen a product pushed as hard by dealers that also sell other competing machines. The skeptic in me thinks that only part of this dealer fervor is due to their concern for my safety. I definitely think the three founders of SawStop are very business saavy. And thats probably a good thing for the people that own the product. I actually saw this as an advantage.

- The Unisaw. I was underwhelmed with this saw for the price. I don't even know specifically why I was not impressed. I guess there were enough little things to make me feel that way. Maybe I was tired because it was the last saw of the day. Maybe it was because I could not get the plastic motor door open and when the dealer tried to help me, it eventually fell off completely. It did not seem to be finished quite as nicely as the SawStop. The metal body *seemed* to be of a lighter gauge than the SawStop. I say *seemed* because it may actually be the same metal guage but with the powder coating on the SawStop it just felt heftier.

To get a true apples-to-apples price comparison on saws with 50" rails, I had to add in the additional ~$85 brake cartridge required for dado blades on the SawStop. The General came out the cheapest...about $300 less than the SawStop. The Unisaw was the most expensive...about $200 more than the SawStop.

It really was a toss-up between the General and the SawStop. I changed my mind at least a half-dozen times in the past 24 hours. Ultimately, I went with the General and placed my order for it this morning. I think it will be a saw that will last longer than the other saws for a bit less money. The simplicity and basic utilitarian nature appeal to me. The riving knife was a more important safety feature than the blade brake. If you could put a blade brake on the General, it would be hard to beat from any aspect.

I really want to thank everyone for their comments. Had it not been for this thread, I would not have even considered the General.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rob, congrats on the purchase of the General 650, it's a fantastic saw.

One item I might note is that the saw abour does have a wrench flat on it, and the saw comes with a wrench for it.

You can then use a 1" wrench on the arbour nut.

Regards, Rod.

[Rob Steffeck]

Hi Rob, congrats on the purchase of the General 650, it's a fantastic saw.

One item I might note is that the saw abour does have a wrench flat on it, and the saw comes with a wrench for it.

You can then use a 1" wrench on the arbour nut.

Regards, Rod.

Even better, thank you. I downloaded the latest copy of the 650 manual and it makes no mention of that. It still shows and describes the block-of-wood method. Glad to see that thats not the case.

[Rod Sheridan]

General manuals are , shall we say...............terrible.

I had a shop full of their equipment, and all the manuals were poor.

Have fun with the new saw............Rod.

P.S. Is it common to see General machinery at the stores in the US?

[Rob Steffeck]

P.S. Is it common to see General machinery at the stores in the US?

Based on my personal experience, I'd say no, but I'm sure someone will correct me. Although Woodcraft is an authorized distributor, I've never seen one on the floor in any stores I've been in. Even their website only lists one General International (foreign made) saw.

Fortunately, the only two authorized distributors in Oregon were both local to where I live. I got mine from an industrial machinery dealer that has a great variety of new / used woodworking equipment.

[Paul Ryan]

Rob,

After all of the posts in this thread. It is good to hear that you looked at the 3 saws in person and picked the saw that was best for you. Congrates I am sure you will love your new toy.

[Dan Lee]

P.S. Is it common to see General machinery at the stores in the US?

I'm guessing not common but Eagle tools in the Los Angeles area stocks some General and General Intl. along with PM, SS and Agazzani. I own a GI 10" jointer.

[Van Huskey]

Congrats, glad you finally decided, I overthink about ever purchase and when I do write the check it feels like a weight is lifted off me. I haven't been able to touch a General but have heard great things about them. They just aren't stocked many places in the Southeast. Along the same lines as you I think the Uni is the most over-priced of the premium 10" "American" cabinet saws, if Delta loosened their price regulation I think they would fall out below the PM/GEN/SS. Many cool features but the bean counters start to show as well, for me the PM hit that happy medium some neat new stuff but still enough of the old school heavy construction, from what you say the General has stuck with less glitz and stays built like I would think of a PM66. The SS is also at a price premium (but not like the Uni) but it has design, safety as well as top notch fit and finish, they forgo a lot of the over-built aspect certainly some for price and not to intrude on the ICS but they also only had to build a saw to handle 3hp, where the PM, Uni and General are built to handle a 5hp motor.

You will have to give us a review and pics when you get her in and tuned!!

[Rob Steffeck]

You will have to give us a review and pics when you get her in and tuned!!

I certainly will. Its the least I can do for all the help I received.

I'd also like to thank you for your tool gloat thread. I had to go to HD today to pick up the electrical supplies to run the 240v line for the saw and figured I'd check out the DeWalt sale you made reference to. For $250 (the money I saved by going with the General) I got three 18v cordless tools: drill/driver, hammer drill, and impact driver. Thats 57% off the best prices I could find online.

Coupled with the General, its been a good tool day.

[Van Huskey]

I certainly will. Its the least I can do for all the help I received.

I'd also like to thank you for your tool gloat thread. I had to go to HD today to pick up the electrical supplies to run the 240v line for the saw and figured I'd check out the DeWalt sale you made reference to. For $250 (the money I saved by going with the General) I got three 18v cordless tools: drill/driver, hammer drill, and impact driver. Thats 57% off the best prices I could find online.

Coupled with the General, its been a good tool day.

There is really nothing like the day you buy your "life" TS as a woodworker, not like completing a Maloof rocker but one I have done and one I will likely never do.


Glad it worked out for you, I had been following the thread about the deal in the deals forum here and on several sites, I new many people here would never see the thread in deals and they were such general tools that everyone has or needs I came up with a way to (for the moment atleast) squeeze the rules as much as I could to alert people.

[Ron Bott]

There is really nothing like the day you buy your "life" TS as a woodworker.

Seriously? My Sawstop felt like just another tool purchase.

[John Ricci]

Congrats on your purchase of a brand spankin' General! I have read this entire thread and refrained from any comment mostly because of the fact that I own a General 650R myself (I have one of the first 50 of them built) and really don't feel that any comment I could make should bias your personal choice of machine. You have to weigh the pros and cons of everything available to make your own decision. In my mind the General is the standard by which all cab saws are judged. I do have to admit that part of my own decision was based on it being a "homegrown" product being a Canadian but in the long run none of the others in the running stood up to the ultimate scrutiny of being my "lifetime" saw. Enjoy it for yourself and for the next couple of generations of your family woodworkers because it will very easily outlive you!

J.R.

[Van Huskey]

Seriously? My Sawstop felt like just another tool purchase.


See you picked the wrong saw, you knew the moment you bought it was just one step on the road to TS nirvana... :p










^ tongue in cheek.

[Glen Butler]

Years ago, I used to do a lot of bike riding. One of the helmet makers had this advertising slogan - "If you have a cheap head, buy a cheap helmet."

A modification of that is appropriate to the SawStop - "If you have cheap hands, buy a cheap saw."

Mike

All helmets have to be snell approved, the only thing that separates them is style (looking good) and airflow.

So lets compare that to the sawstop - "If you want your saw to look better and have more airflow, buy a sawstop.":D

With fear of sounding infallible, I honestly don't understand how people could cut their fingers off. I think there is a proper way to feed wood and apply pressure to the board so hands are thrown free in the event of a kickback. Even still there is a proper method for running wood so it doesn't kick back. In 20 years, I have never had a kickback on my cabinet saw. I have had one on a portable ridgid when I accidently dropped a sheet onto the blade after feeding it, but no hands were involved there. I am more afraid of falling onto the blade of my portable and giving myself "open heart surgery" than cutting my fingers off.

I agree in the safety features of the sawstop, and I would like one for my childrens sake. But for myself I would never buy one just for the break. It would come down to all the other features of the saw first, and the break would just be a bonus. But it appears sawstop has a top notch saw to boot.

[Ron Carlton]

I wonder if we had the same dialog when blade guards first came out.:confused:

[Van Huskey]

I wonder if we had the same dialog when blade guards first came out.:confused:


In that same vein we should consider how long it will be before there is a thread trying to hack the SS so the bypass is always engaged...

If I had a dollar for every TS cut I have seen made without a guard on the saw (not counting non-through cuts either) I could would buy an ICS then I could have a tank and a brake, not just one or the other.

[Brian Penning]

To get a true apples-to-apples price comparison on saws with 50" rails, I had to add in the additional ~$85 brake cartridge required for dado blades on the SawStop. The General came out the cheapest...about $300 less than the SawStop. The Unisaw was the most expensive...about $200 more than the SawStop.

It really was a toss-up between the General and the SawStop. I changed my mind at least a half-dozen times in the past 24 hours. Ultimately, I went with the General and placed my order for it this morning. I think it will be a saw that will last longer than the other saws for a bit less money. The simplicity and basic utilitarian nature appeal to me. The riving knife was a more important safety feature than the blade brake. If you could put a blade brake on the General, it would be hard to beat from any aspect.


IF the General and the SS had been the same price, would you have made the same choice?
BTW, I sold my General to get the SawStop ICS and there was at least a couple of thousand dollars difference in the two.

[mreza Salav]

Rob, I hope you never regret your purchase, ever! Congratulations on your new saw.
But if it was me I'd have happily paid that extra $200 for a SS.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Congratulations.

The suspense was killing me.:)

[Rob Steffeck]

IF the General and the SS had been the same price, would you have made the same choice?


But if it was me I'd have happily paid that extra $200 for a SS.

Let me clarify. The small difference in price really didn't matter. I probably would have made the same choice even if the General was a bit more than the PCS. Now if the ICS was close in price to the General, things would probably be different.

I get the whole safety brake thing and I like it. Just like I think seat belts and motorcycle helmets are smart. The thing that slightly bothers me is how its implemented. Its more of a philosophical issue. The closest thing I can relate it to is seat belts in a rental car. In most rental cars, the car will beep and "bing" at you until you put on your seat belt. You have no choice in the matter unless you want to be annoyed your entire trip. The difference with this scenario and the SawStop brake is that I don't own the rental car. If I don't want to use a feature of something I own, I should be able to no matter how ill-advised it may be. And I'm not talking about the temporary bypass mode. If I want to disable it for my use, but enable it when the neighbor wants to use it or I get employees, then I should be able to. If I don't want to buy the dado brake, I should still be able to use my $3,000 saw with a dado blade. The SawStop is not a Libertarian-friendly tool. ;)

I understand why it probably can't be this way. Liability and business reasons dictate otherwise.

[Van Huskey]

I understand why it probably can't be this way. Liability and business reasons dictate otherwise.


SS may see it this way but they may not, as I think they could easily have a keyed constant bypass mode without any really liability if the saw lets you know it is in bypass mode. I really think this is SS looking at a situation with slightly biased eyes and thinking "why would anyone EVER want to do that". An analogy would be in the car industry. Several of the more luxury car brands find it impossible to build a car without COMPLETLY defeatable traction/stability control even in their performance oriented cars, the more performance oriented manufacturers like Porsche and BMW have always allowed you to completely defeat these systems rather easily, a simple light on the dash lets you know. These manufacturers understand the importance of this feature to a group of people who own/drive their cars. That all said I not am sure the number of people that would want this feature on their SS merit its inclusion.

[Rob Waldref]

All helmets have to be snell approved, the only thing that separates them is style (looking good) and airflow.


Picking nits here, but I don't think that is correct. It is possible that all US sold helmets have to be DOT certified.