Cutting big teeth

[Jim Paulson]

Hi creekers,

I got a new saw project that I'm working on. I'm making a frame saw for resawing and cutting veneer and I've purchased the 1095 for the saw plate. It will feature a blade/plate of 36 inches. What would be the best way to cut 2-3 tpi on the plate? Would it work to rough cut the teeth with a hack saw then commence filing them for the final shape.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

My honest answer would be I do not know.

My thoughts about the question lead me to consider the care one wants to use when cutting teeth. If a hacksaw can make perfectly repeatable cuts, then it may be a good choice.

My own experience with cutting new teeth is the ability one has to make slight adjustments to the teeth when cutting with a file.

For veneer, 2-3 tpi seems a bit coarse. The coarser the teeth, the rougher the cut.

Just my 2¢,

jim

[David Gendron]

i'm sure it would work, I never done it, but if to can scribe the teeth on the plate, maybe using some machinist scribing fluid and an awl, then cut close to the line and finish it up with the files. what kind of files would you use for 2-3 tpi? how big tooth?
I want to make one of those one day...

[harry strasil]

2-3 teeth is too coarse, I have a 2 TPI framed pit style saw I made that is 5 Ft long, for resawing. 4.5 to 5 teeth would work better, file it rip with the front edge of the tooth 90 degrres and about a 3 to 4 degree fleam angle and set it very fine or its not gonna wonder around in the kerf and make it hard to follow a line, I set the teeth then squeeze them in a smooth jawed machinists type vise with copy paper lining the jaws, the teeth tips cut thru the paper and make for a nice narrow even set that cuts really fast.

video here, http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=112255&highlight=video

[Steve Clardy]

I'll have to find it, but ShopNotes has an article on making a homemade saw filing jig for making new saw blades and sharpening.
It has a threaded rod in it to make the tooth spacing even.

It was several issues back.

[Jim Paulson]

Thanks guys. Jr. and Jim's comments were helpful. A tool collector friend today contacted me about a frame saw he found. The frame is broken at one point so he sold to me at cost for $20. Here are some pictures of the saw that measures 22 by 36 inches and sports a 30 inch long blade. Interestingly enough the saw plate has rip teeth at 4 tpi. Since some of us need examples/models this will help me quite a bit on building one that I put to use.

Steve, let me know about the ShopNotes article if you can. :)

Thanks and enjoy the pictures.

[David Gendron]

keep us updated on your progress, I'm realy interested in how you will proceed!
Thank you

[Matt Ranum]

I was just glancing at the shopnotes article with the teeth cutting jig in it. Looked like it would work pretty well. Its the current issue so should be on news stands now. They are making a backsaw in this issue. If my scanner was working I would send you the article, but unfortunately it isn't.

[Peter Evans]

The saw blade in the fame saw is horribly concave! Makes one wonder how someone kept on using it in that state. One good source of teeth for copying is used power hack saw blades; just clamp behind the new saw plate and start the teeth, no need to file all the way down initially.

Cheers Peter

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

I saw a frame saw like that while browsing a pawn shop today. It was so rough looking I didn't give it a second look.

The Norse Woodsmith web site has some printable patterns for spacing saw teeth. A large bolt or anything with regular spacing to follow would work.

jim

[Adam Cherubini]

Hi creekers,

I got a new saw project that I'm working on. I'm making a frame saw for resawing and cutting veneer and I've purchased the 1095 for the saw plate. It will feature a blade/plate of 36 inches. What would be the best way to cut 2-3 tpi on the plate? Would it work to rough cut the teeth with a hack saw then commence filing them for the final shape.

Thanks,
Jim

No. It won't. Heat treated steel can't practically be sawn with a hack saw. Filing is probably the best way to do this. 2tpi really isn't too coarse at all. 4-5 will clog in kerfs much over 4" or so. When you talk about resawing veneers, I'm thinking about 12" cuts. I've done this many many times with a 4ppi rip saw. You have 2 problems:

1) The saw teeth will fill with saw dust and the saw will be lifted out of the cut.
2) The blade won't be long enough to clear the dust. Some teeth will remain in the kerf. So a 36" blade isn't nearly long enough. My frame saw has a full 48" long blade and a 60" would probably be better. One solution is to saw vertically. I find this inconvenient in my shop.

Not to talk you out of this, but sawing veneers as we see in Roubo is not easy. 2 experienced sawyers are really required. Sawing thin material is particularly difficult. These saws are not easy to steer.

And moving this much wood is a considerable amount of work. Folks made machines to do this work fairly early on. My 4' blade can resaw a pine 1x12x3' long in about 15 minutes (in the middle of a work day). I can do about 3 of these without a break. After three, I'm fatigued and everything I do after that is effected. I do 50 push-ups every morning and run 2-3 miles 3 times a week (unless my schedule or the weather prohibit it). If one is not accustomd to this sort of effort, I think this is not something worth experiencing. You won't get a sense for the work of 18th c craftsmen. Beyond that, I don't believe this is a practical way to produce veneer. I would argue that surfacing stock with hand planes IS practical. I think anyone can do it. Sawing joints by hand is practical. Ripping thick or long lumber and resawing lumber are both jobs that 18th c cabinetshops tried to get out of.

I'd argue that the former was so diffficult that it shaped almost everything they did, from design, to construction, to species selection. Some reproduction furniture makers talk about tool marks making their pieces appear authentic. I say that we don't see saw marks but they have a greater effect on the look of a finished piece. The evidence of a hand sawn piece is readily apparent to me.

That said, good luck with your saw and have fun with it. If you have nothing to proove and low expectations, you'll enjoy the experience as much as I did.

Adam

[Jim Paulson]

Filing teeth is what I'll be doing alright since it is spring steel.

Jim, I can also relate to your comment too about seeing frame or bowsaws in antique stores. I can't tell you how many I've seen that were way past their prime so to speak. I've seen so many that were full of nails, wires, and flimsy. It would be tough to buy an antique one on ebay if you wanted to use it. That is the reason I made my first bowsaw this year after I studied them and decided I could make my own.

I am hoping a small repair and some sharpening can make this saw work again. If not, I'll use it for making a replacement and hang the original on the wall.

It is humbling to see a saw like this one I posted that shows wear and tear from being used. Especially after Adam's comment here about the physical exertion required to cut wider boards. That is how I see the obvious concavity evident on my pictures of the saw blade. I could only hope some of my saws might be so used one day by ancestors to wear out the blades.:cool:

Take care,
Jim

[harry strasil]

just tape an old wooden yardstick to the edge you are gonna make teeth in and use the stick markings to cut the teeth with it clamped in a vise, and any good quality bimetal hacksaw blade will cut spring steel easily.

And narrow blades always get bowed in the middle as most people don't use the whole blade for cutting, normally just a short area in the middle.

[Steve Clardy]

Steve, let me know about the ShopNotes article if you can. :)

Thanks and enjoy the pictures.


109, the current issue.

http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/109/