Sawstop

[John A langley]

I've only been around the forum for a couple of months. The one thing I've noticed is there are a alot of people very enthusiastic about Sawstop. It is a very innovative idea and in theory should work well but are we really safer in relying on the saw to be our safety net. Would we become complacent in our safety practices because we think we have nothing to worry about? I'm not sure it is the answer.To replacing one, educating ourselves in using the saw, two, using good common sense and good safety practices. At some point in time this mechanical device can fail like any mechanical device. I just don't know and would like other people's thoughts on it.

[Garrett Ellis]

Would we become complacent in our safety practices because we think we have nothing to worry about?

No. I didn't, but I guess I can't speak for everyone though... I used one several times a week in a class this past semester, and witnessed another student trip it and walk away with a tiny nick. I have used different table saws both before and after the class.

I'm still scared out of my pants about possibly coming in contact with a spinning blade...

[Dennis McGarry]

I think you would have to be Rather dense in the head to ever become "Complacent" around a spinning saw blade, no matter what machine it was one.

Its not a matter of complacency but more a method to help lesson the chance of a major injury IF an accident does happen, like safety glasses..

[Jack Mincey]

In my mind it is better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it. I've taught High School Shop for 27 years and never had a student cut on the table saw. Kick backs have hurt a couple, but not bad. When my old saw died a few years back it was a no brainner which one the school had to buy. The sawstop not only has this safety feature, it is a very well designed and built tool. The bandsaw has been the tool in my school shop that has caused most of the problems over my 27 years. Luckly none of them required stiches, but it did take a few weeks for one students finger to grow skin over the tip of his thumb. He was lucky that he didn't take but a 1/16" off the tip. Most of the accidents I hear of with table saw's are to person's that have used them for years. Over confidence is one's worst enemy in the shop. You start to do stuff that you know better than to do and it will end up costing you more than you want.
Jack

[Rod Sheridan]

The Saw Stop technology is really a secondary protection system, it's not designed to be the primary safety system.

The primary safety systems in order of preferences are;

- eliminate the hazard using engineering. For example cut rebates on the proper machine such as a shaper which has guards suitable for non through cut/edge treatments, OR

- add suitable guards (such as overarm guard) so that the dado head is properly covered when cutting rebates, AND PROVIDE

- training and periodic testing/inspection of operators for proper use of the machines and safety features.

Secondary Systems

- when the unthinkable has happened and someone has come in contact with the blade use the "self destruct" feature to stop the cutter.

Obviously at home, you are the engineer, operator and safety inspector so you have to determine which machine is the safest for the particular operation, decide which guards need to be purchased or fabricated, and what training you need to perform the operation.

Occasionally, there's no safe way to do what you want, so you need to come up with plan B.

After that you should never need to use the secondary safety feature, however if the unthinkable happens, it's certainly worth every penny and more.

So in answer to your question, I don't think it should make you complacent. Being a well trained and professional wood worker (or hobby wood worker) means that you have the training to evaluate the safety aspects and make suitable professional judgements such as " since I can't cut rebates on my table saw without removing the guard, I need to cut them on another machine or fabricate/purchase a suitable guard before cutting any rebates".

Having a secondary (backup) safety system just indicates to me that you're doing things properly and professionally.


Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

I've only been around the forum for a couple of months. The one thing I've noticed is there are a alot of people very enthusiastic about Sawstop. It is a very innovative idea and in theory should work well but are we really safer in relying on the saw to be our safety net. Would we become complacent in our safety practices because we think we have nothing to worry about? I'm not sure it is the answer.To replacing one, educating ourselves in using the saw, two, using good common sense and good safety practices. At some point in time this mechanical device can fail like any mechanical device. I just don't know and would like other people's thoughts on it.


Do you drive more recklessly when you have seat belts on, when you are in a car with antilock brakes (though they require a slightly different technique), when you have air bags or when the car has traction/stability control? Bottom line the SS is a great saw competative with any other TS with a safety feature that helps prevent one type of injury in the shop. I doubt it changes the habits of a woodworker that learned on other saws, it probably does impact the mindset of those that have only used a SS. Even the ones in the latter group probably keep in mind a "trip" causes a couple of hundred dollars in damage to the wallet and down time, which in and of itself may be enough to keep one focused. Although I did not purchase a SS and the money I spent was equl or slightly more than a SS PCS I don't get all the SS discussion both the disciples and detractors get far too worked up. It is a wonderful saw at a slightly premium price that gives some peace of mind, if it was not as good a TS as other premium saws but just with the brake I would get the ferver however that is not the case.

[Josh Reet]

Do you drive more recklessly when you have seat belts on, when you are in a car with antilock brakes (though they require a slightly different technique), when you have air bags or when the care has treaction/stability control?

Van used exactly the example I was going to. So I'll just say +1

[Richard Link]

Alas, John, this is a topic that has really been hashed to death in the past on the forums. I understand your point, though. I owned a Sawstop for several years (don't now) and certainly didn't get complacent on the safety procedures just because of the blade brake. Just as I don't drive like a maniac just because I have seat belts or an air bag in the car these days.

Many woodworkers imply that the Sawstop is "bad" because it makes people complacent. I don't understand that argument. The Sawstop isn't bad because it has additional safety features. Again, this is much like saying we shouldn't have seatbelts in cars because it discourages people from being careful drivers. Seems idiotic to me. Owning a Sawstop doesn't eliminate my personal obligation to educate myself about my tools and how to use them safely.

I also think its somewhat odd that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of Sawstop +/- safety discussions in the forums. We don't invest a lot of time into arguing the relative merits of +/- for blade guards on circular saws or bandsaws or router tables or eye protection. Why is that?

Well, my personal opinion is that everyone feels the need internally to justify their position. If you are not a Sawstop owner (either because the saw is too expensive or you just like your current saw), you tend to vociferously advocate that blade brakes are unecessary or even "bad" because subconsciously you recognize that you are accepting a level of risk that others have opted to avoid. If I get distracted by a meteorite and inadvertantly cut off my index finger in a one in a million event, I'm going to have to face myself afterward and accept the reality that I chose to accept this risk when I had an available alternative. On the other hand, if I own a Sawstop, I need to energetically espouse its benefits to justify the extra investment. Heck, I owned a Sawstop for 2 years and never fired the brake once. Was it "worth" the extra $2K I spent as compared to a standard cabinet saw? (I think so....)

Ultimately, the arguments against the Sawstop have often been driven by cost. That's why we don't get so excited about blade guards on circular saws, etc. which are cheap and standard on most saws. Whether its worth it to the individual to pay a premium for a blade brake on a table saw is really up to the individual. Perhaps now that Sawstop has less expensive saws, this argument will be less of a driver.

In conclusion, owning a Sawstop does not equal throwing out common sense just like driving a car with seatbelts or wearing eye protection doesn't. The availability of the blade brake on at least one saw, however, does put pressure on those who chose not to use one. For some, this is no problem and more power to them. For others, that little voice in the back of your mind can be troubling.

When I see someone aggressively denegrating the blade brake or any other safety feature on a tool, I think of that line from Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Best wishes.

Rick

[Eric DeSilva]

Do you drive more recklessly when you have seat belts on, when you are in a car with antilock brakes (though they require a slightly different technique), when you have air bags or when the care has treaction/stability control?

Well, apparently... the answer is "yes."

Purdue University engineering professor Fred Mannering did a study and concluded "[w]hat we found is that people tend to compensate for advanced safety features such as anti-lock braking systems, air bags, [and] electronic stability packages by driving more aggressively."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2530234

[Don Bullock]

Actually I think I'm more careful with my SawStop because I don't want to set the brake off. I'm also finding that I use the guard all the time. That's something I never did with my old Craftsman TS.

[Victor Robinson]

Actually I think I'm more careful with my SawStop because I don't want to set the brake off. I'm also finding that I use the guard all the time. That's something I never did with my old Craftsman TS.

LMAO! Losing a finger...ehhh. But if I set the brake off I'm gonna be out $70 + blade! Just funny how the psychology works there...

[Van Huskey]

LMAO! Losing a finger...ehhh. But if I set the brake off I'm gonna be out $70 + blade! Just funny how the psychology works there...


The funny thing is it is the same way for me, when I have used one of my friends ICS I was constantly aware of the $70+ Forrest even a brush would cost me. I am always aware of the nebulous danger of hurting myself in the shop, but the easily quantifiable cost of tripping the brake lingers in the forefront of my brain!

[Dan Friedrichs]

It's a decision of relative levels of risk that each person needs to make themselves. There is a small risk of a rabid skunk walking into my shop and biting me on the leg - but the risk is small enough that I don't invest in skunk-repellant. I perceive the risk of cutting myself on the TS to be greater, so I'm planning to buy a SawStop. You may be much more proficient with a TS, and have more skunks in your area, so your priorities may differ from mine.

Dr. Link's comments are great, but omit the fact that many people value their safety to different degrees. He would probably face serious career consequences if he had a TS accident. If you make a living in a different way, you may not be as worried about it.

[bob frost]

Actually I think I'm more careful with my SawStop because I don't want to set the brake off. I'm also finding that I use the guard all the time. That's something I never did with my old Craftsman TS.

Great point Don. I am considering the Sawstop ( even though it is $1800 more than the G690 i had in mind), because I sometimes make mental mistakes and combined with inpatients from time to time, and the fact that I have grand children that will be getting to the age where I hope to interest them in woodworking in a few years, has me leaning toward the SS.