flooring help needed

[Rick Moyer]

Below are some pics of the flooring after pulling up the carpet. I don't want to redo the whole floor at this time so I would like to replace the existing filler pcs. with oak to match the rest of the floor and stain/finish to match as well as possible. I can certainly make the necessary boards, but would like your advice regarding removing the pcs., installing new, etc. OR, if you have different suggestions, I'll entertain those as well. My main concern is the boards would not be staggered, but would this be OK or too noticeable? Again, I don't really want to re-do the whole floor right now.

As you can see, there was apparently a wall and closet in each area that was removed and they decided to just fill in pcs. and put down carpeting overtop when the layout was changed.

[keith ouellette]

I cant wait to find out also. :)

If it were me though. I would find the wood I was going to use for the repairs so I would know its widths.

use something like a roto zip and some straight edges stuck to the floor with double stick tape and cut out the appropriate amount.

cut flooring to size leaving the smallest amount of gap for expansion that i could

stain it and then glue it to the sub floor

But that is what I would try.

try being the opertune word because I don't really know.

[Nick Laeder]

I had a similar situation. We paid a flooring guy $60 to patch an area like that, and then $1.25/sf to sand/stain/refinish our kitchen floor.

I love installing wood floors, and have refinished a couple of them, but after a price like that, I don't think I'll ever stand behind a drum sander again.

Check the yellow pages for hardwood flooring guys who work out of their trucks. A lot of craftsmen are hungry right now, and will give very competitive pricing.

[roman fedyk]

I have done this before...I used a Fein Multimaster to cut out the old pieces, cut the new pieces to the right size and then face nailed the new pieces. You will need to refinish a few boards around the new pieces to help them blend in.

If you don't want to buy a Fein the HF Multitool will do the job as well. The blades are very thin and they are designed to plunge cut giving you a very neat job.

[Dave Lash]

If you replace the patch areas by weaving in new oak flooring, it will still be hard to match the finish without redoing the whole floor. If you decide to refinish the floor I would use a U-Sand machine rather than a drum sander; there is no gouging, it is easy to control, and it does a nice job of leaveling and smothing the floor. The Home Depots near me rent the U-Sand, and as I have used both a drum sander and the U-Sand, I would say the U-Sand is definitely the way to go. The U-Sand is basically a big four disk random orbital sander with dust collection, see link.

http://www.cherryhillmfg.com/u-sand/why.htm

[Rick Moyer]

Thanks for the U-sand link Dave. Right now I just want to get the pcs. removed down to the underlayment or floor joists and replace with new matching boards. Some time later I may refinish the whole floor.

Might be a good time to justify a multitool/multimaster type tool, Roman. Sounds like you feel that would be the best way. I have a RotoZip but I don't think that's going to be the easiest way. I'm looking for the best/easiest way to remove the old stuff, and whether I should/need-to tongue&groove, face nail, glue, or what, the new boards. Keep the responses coming!

[Brodie Brickey]

Rick,

I'd cut the bad spots out as suggested above. I'd also make sure the pieces I put in are the same width as the rest of the floor.

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The same board width will make it much easier to trick the eye. After that its just finish and stain (if any). When you remove the bad wood and you have a tongue groove to work with, go ahead and use it. No matter what you'll have to glue it down to the underlay. You can also stagger the lengths if its multiple width boards.

[Jim Foster]

You should not need anything specal to cut out the old pieces, circular saw, crow bar, hammer, chisel, etc. Cut a long narrow section out of each board your removing and then work the remains out. If you have a good hardwood flooring reference, I think you'd find someone could do that work for you at a pretty reasonable price and even feather in some finish reasonably well.

[Rick Moyer]

I thought I would start in the bedroom (3rd pic) where you see a small rectangular pc of board in front of the dresser. Removing the board was no problem. My problem is cutting a straight line ACROSS the ends of the existing boards (not a lot of room). What will be the best tool to do this in this confined area? I suspect I need to get a multitool type tool. My rotozip is the drywall one so there isn't really a place on it to butt against a straightedge very well. Circular saw won't get in to where I need it here. Router I would be concerned about hitting an unseen nail in the tongues and also would not get to where I need it. Will a miltitool be ok with encountering nails?

My only real issue with this project is removing the filler pcs. and squaring the openings without damaging the remaining flooring or the tool(s) I will use. If the concensus is that a multitool will be the best thing to use I will have to get one tomorrow.

[roman fedyk]

Yep multitool with a metal/wood combo blade. If a nail is hit it might damage the blade but they are really cheap at HF. Put a 2x4 across the area you want to cut and hold the blade against that as a guide and you should be able to cut a nice straight line across the boards.

[Rick Moyer]

Yep multitool with a metal/wood combo blade. If a nail is hit it might damage the blade but they are really cheap at HF. Put a 2x4 across the area you want to cut and hold the blade against that as a guide and you should be able to cut a nice straight line across the boards.

I thought you might jump back in with that recommendation. OK, a multitool it is.


Next question (for anyone): What would make a Fein more desireable over a less expensive variety? There's a Harbor Freight place 40 miles away, Fein I would have to order I think. I'd reluctantly be willing to buy the Fein if it will be better for me in the long or short term, but what would determine that?

NEVERMIND. I just went back and read this thread below. i suspect with what I will use it for the HF will do for me.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=128751&highlight=fein

[Mike Gadget]

Just a thought, but is there a place that you could take out some existing finished flooring and move it to the patched locations. A closet or less visable area. Then fill in that area that will not be as visable, you may not have to worry as much with the finish matching that way.

[Michael Drew]

I feel your pain. I have a similar situation. A leaking Christmas tree warped an area of my floor and the boards are cupped pretty bad. I don’t think sanding them down will be enough and I need to pull them and replace. Mine are random length and width hickory…. I nailed them every 2-4 inches and used construction adhesive in addition to nails because I have in-floor heat.

Thinking a bit outside the box here… Have you considered cutting out more flooring and doing something with tile? Possibly an area that looks as if you intended it to be a tile / wood area? I think you are kinda hosed because the ends are in a high traffic area. You will see this every time you walk by. Others may not, but you sure will and it will more than likely drive you nuts.

[Don Jarvie]

Hire someone.

Eventhough you can do this they flooring guys can get the pieces to fit tightly and match the stain. The time and aggravation you will spend is worth the money.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

You should not need anything specal to cut out the old pieces, circular saw, crow bar, hammer, chisel, etc. Cut a long narrow section out of each board your removing and then work the remains out. If you have a good hardwood flooring reference, I think you'd find someone could do that work for you at a pretty reasonable price and even feather in some finish reasonably well.


Jim has done this before, circular saw chisel etc. Multi tool is fine if you intend to salvage the patches you are taking out. Since that's not the objective why would you buy a precision cutting tool.

Unless you need to convince SWMBO you need the tool.

Once had a guy who worked for me remove this type of patch with a hatchet.


Greg

[Rick Moyer]

Just a thought, but is there a place that you could take out some existing finished flooring and move it to the patched locations. A closet or less visable area. Then fill in that area that will not be as visable, you may not have to worry as much with the finish matching that way.
that could work in the smaller (BR) area but not in the larger LR/DR area. I expect to refinish the whole floor sometime down the road anyway. I just need to get the right material in for now and make it look a little better.


I feel your pain. I have a similar situation. A leaking Christmas tree warped an area of my floor and the boards are cupped pretty bad. I don’t think sanding them down will be enough and I need to pull them and replace. Mine are random length and width hickory…. I nailed them every 2-4 inches and used construction adhesive in addition to nails because I have in-floor heat.

Thinking a bit outside the box here… Have you considered cutting out more flooring and doing something with tile? Possibly an area that looks as if you intended it to be a tile / wood area? I think you are kinda hosed because the ends are in a high traffic area. You will see this every time you walk by. Others may not, but you sure will and it will more than likely drive you nuts.
I considered some tiling accents, but the overall areas don't really lend themselves to that.

[Rick Moyer]

Jim has done this before, circular saw chisel etc. Multi tool is fine if you intend to salvage the patches you are taking out. Since that's not the objective why would you buy a precision cutting tool.

Unless you need to convince SWMBO you need the tool.

Once had a guy who worked for me remove this type of patch with a hatchet.


Greg

I know you can't tell from the pics but there are gaps between the flooring boards and the patches. In other words, the flooring is not cut exactly straight across in some areas where there is a patch pc perpendicular to the main floor boards. I will need to true(square) these areas up prior to installing new flooring. In some places there is no room to get another tool close to the wall to do that. There is where I think a multitool will be beneficial. Clear?

[Scott Hildenbrand]

http://www.creativehomeowner.com/index.php?pane=project&projectid=chflr153

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjyjHuvdXDs

It's not a hard process to get the damaged parts out and to replace them.. Getting the finish right is the kicker, until you can refinish the whole floor.

[roman fedyk]

If the floor boards are not even, you may need to take an additional board out on the side where it is not quite right. That way the entire patch will be perfectly straight, like the rest of the floor. Whatever you do, think it through, as you are doing.

[Rick Moyer]

No I mean the ends are not cut evenly to the patch. one or two are about 1/4" longer or shorter, or slightly angled. I need to square them off.

[Rick Moyer]

Scott, thanks for the links.

[roman fedyk]

Same applies. If you cut the ends off square it will look like a patch. You want to install the boards in a staggered pattern like the rest of your floor. If you cut across two or three boards straight, you will never be able to make it not look like a patch.

[Ben Franz]

I've run into this type of repair fairly often doing remodel work. One other method to cut back the existing floor so you can weave in the patch is to use a small router with a 1/8" diameter solid carbide bit (also handy for inlay work). Use a square as an edge guide and you can rout up to the edge of the board. Split the board lengthwise with a circular saw and pry out. Then, square up the end of the cut with a chisel. I'd suggest buying replacement T&G flooring at a supply house - they should have most species and widths in stock. Getting the last board in might require ripping off the bottom of the groove side. Good luck.

[Rick Moyer]

Roman and Ben, points both well taken. I found out that I can get the exact flooring (even the color matches, at least with the sample board in the store), so I shouldn't have to do more than replace the flooring without needing to refinish:)! Yes, I see that I will have to stagger the ends (random lengths) to make it look OK.

I'll post back when I get involved in the job.

[Rick Moyer]

Hire someone.

Eventhough you can do this they flooring guys can get the pieces to fit tightly and match the stain. The time and aggravation you will spend is worth the money.

I am starting to think this is wise advice. I tried taking out random lengths to stagger the seams. This is difficult, but doable, but; it is impossible to put in the new pieces unless you don't use the tongue and groove:mad:. (I don't know how to draw a pic here or I would).
Do I have to remove the tongues? How do I then fasten the boards down? I don't want this to squeek. I apparently don't know what I'm doing well enough and am currently frustrated. More advice on how to do this myself, please, before I throw in the towel.

edit: I've been doing more research. I believe I need to remove the bottoms of the groove side. I should be able to put the tongues into the existing grooves. I guess I then either glue down, or face nail the groove side, or maybe both. My questions are:
Do I need to do both?
What nails do I use, if I nail down?
What adhesive should I be using?
note: there is a subfloor with felt paper over top below the hardwood strips

[Ben Franz]

Rick-

Sounds like you're getting a lot of "experience" here - not always a bad thing but if your schedule is tight, hiring a floor mechanic might be worth it. This type of patchwork is really time-consuming and can be frustrating. Most of the time for narrow patches, there isn't much room to get the new pieces in unless you rip off the bottom side of the groove and face nail the new board. Sometimes this is only necessary for the last board. If you have access to the tongue side, you can nail through the corner at an angle (maybe predrill) and set with a nailset. Single width patches to weave the new wood in can be driven in from the end and then face nailed. Whatever method used, the cut backs need to be done accurately and I repeat my earlier suggestion to use a router and square - I find it much more controllable than a hand guided saw. All of this can become a nightmare if the new material isn't a good match for the old in width. After the patch is in place, the new area will probably stand proud of the existing floor since it hasn't been sanded. The best approach is to sand and refinish the entire floor, possibly using a stain to even out colors. I know this is more expensive - my approach is what I used doing remodels for mid to high end clients that wouldn't be satisfied with a result that looked like an obvious patch. You'll have to decide what result you want. Good luck and "Flooring Contractors - Wood" in the yellow pages isn't a crime.

[Rick Moyer]

1. I have some time, this is my slow season for work
2. re-finishing the entire floor is a down-the-road option, right now I want to get the same boards in place.
3. the worst part: the new pieces match in width but are 1/16" thinner than the old flooring. Unfortunately this is 1/32 above and 1/32 below the tongue of the new floor pieces, so I'll have to build up the subfloor 1/16 and remove 1/32 from the top of the tongue to allow the surfaces to meet flush.

So, if I face nail the pcs. that I need to, set the nails below and fill the holes, what nails should I be using? i don't think I can glue down because of the felt paper and required 1/16 build up.

[Mark Bolton]

To add to the other replies, you can cut the pieces out with a skill saw pass up the center and pry bar the remains out. For adding / creating butt joints all you need is a plunger router with a 1/4" straight cutting bit, a straight edge and a chisel. Have a helper stand on the straight edge while you mkae the crosscut with the router stopping at the edges by eye. The multitool is a waste of time. We have done hundreds of these and watched flooring guys do hundreds more this way. After that square up your edges with the chisel.

Now you CAN use the t&g on the replacement piece. You just back bevel the replacement so that you register it on the tounge of the piece in the floor and using a block of wood and mallet drive the back beveled tounge by the grooved piece remaining in the floor. You have to back bevel enough to allow the piece to be driven in but not so much as to remove the tounge completely.

This way the small tounge remaining acts as a latch eliminating or reducing the need to face nail. Also if you have access below you can scew up from the bottom eliminating face nails.

The reason why floor finishers prices are so cheap to repair is becaus they rip off the tounge and face nail. It can be a much nicer repair than that.

That said, after that spring for having the entire floor refiniahed by a pro. It will cost you far less than the rent and time to do it yourself and you will NEVER get the finish as nice as a quality pro floor finisher will.

Excuse any typos, sent from iPhone,
mark

[Rick Moyer]

Mark, just to clarify what you said about back-beveling:
I should lay the new piece in groove-side-first, after BB'ing the lower portion of the tongue of the new piece, and then tap down the tongue side of the new piece of flooring?
How much of a back bevel would you recommend? 45 degree angle, or steeper or less steep?
As I understand it, I need to be able to pound this so it goes under the top portion of the groove without damaging the tongue on the new piece, thereby having just enough tongue to catch under the groove, right?