Waterbased finish recommendation

[Wes Billups]

I'd asked a question about HVLP systems last week and a couple of response mentioned Target brand finishes. I'd like to get some more input from those that have used these versus the others available. I've used Minwax's Polycrylic (sp?) and Crystalac sold by McFeeley's. The Crystalac was much better than the Polycrylic. I'm hoping to expand my finishing knowledge and try something new. I've just completed building a maple bathroom vanity, wall cabinet, and mirror surround that I thought would be a good opportunity to try with Target finishes.

Some key questions on this brand of finish.

Where is the best place to purchase Target finishes?
Does it require thinning in order to spray, if so what do you use?
What type of finish would your recommend for bathroom cabinets, knowing it's going over dyed maple?
Can this material be safely shipped with it being 15°F outside right now?

Are there other brands of finishes you'd recommend? I've heard good things about General Finishes and it's available locally.

I'm also open to oil based finishes but would prefer not to use them since I'll be applying the finish in our basement.

Let me hear everyone's opinions/comments.

Thanks,
Wes

[Jim McFarland]

I normally buy Target finishes from Jeff @ Homestead Finishing (located in Cleveland). However, The Finishing Zone has a promo going on now for 30% off (code JX10, online sales only) and I have bought from them with no problems when they have a sale. Email to either one should result in good advice re the coating to use for your project if others don't post recommendations. I use EM6000 for all the projects I do (burn in and buff to desired gloss similar to traditional lacquer) but I have not used it for a bathroom project -- not sure how well it would do with the humidity swings. I have received orders in freezing weather and no product problems when I used it -- can't say it was at 15* F though!

[Sam Layton]

Wes, I used General Finishes, Enduro Pre-Cat sanding sealer, and Enduro Pre-Cat Urethane on my bathroom vanity. I am spraying the drawer fronts and drawers now. I added the cross linker.

I have never used Target finishes, just heard good things about them. I like he GF's. It is easy to spray and looks great. I use their oil base stain and top with the above Pre-Cat. I tried the water base stain, and did not like it at all. Using the oil base stain, you just have to let it dry completely before using the Pre-Cat Urethane. I will be using this on my kitchen as well.

It is ready to spray out of the can, and it is available locally. I don't think you can go wrong with either one.

Sam

[Wes Billups]

Jim and Sam,

Thank you for your responses. I did a little research on the General Finishes and may go this route. Can either of you give me input on applying these over a waterbased dye? I'm wondering if I should seal the color with a thinned dewaxed shellac prior to applying the top coat.

Wes

[Rob Cunningham]

I've been using Target Coatings for several years now and am very happy with their products. Mostly I use EM6000, but have used EM2000 and EM9000 on several projects with great results. I haven't found a need to thin any of their products. Purchases are made through The Finishing Zone website.
I would suggest you seal in the WB dye before applying the top coat.

[Jim Becker]

I generally purchase Target Coatings finishes directly from Target (http://targetcoatings.com). There is often free shipping and the promo codes sweeten the deal even more. The current code for January 2010 is JX10 and it takes 30% off your order. The gallon of EM6000 I just bought was $30.80 shipped to my door. That said, if I needed tinting, I'd go directly to Jeff Jewitt as others have mentioned. He did the tinting for my kitchen project in 2003, for example, and it was bang on what I wanted.

[Sam Layton]

Wes, I have never applied a water base dye, so I can not answer your question. I have called GF's several times to ask questions and they were very helpful.

I am just learning all of this as well. My understanding is, if you do use dewaxed shellac, only spray a thin coat or it could crack under the top coat. I asked GF if I should use dewaxed shellac after using their oil base stain prior to using the pre-cat sanding sealer. They said not necessary, just let the oil base stain dry good.

Sorry I can not be anymore help, Sam

[Wes Billups]

Jim, I spoke with Jeff at Homestead Finishing yesterday. For the bathroom cabinets he is recommending the Emtech 8000 conversion varnish. I can't decide what gloss level to use (gloss, semi, or satin). All the built-in cabinets in my house are currenly off-white so I don't have anything existing to go off.

Can you or anyone else recommend which one to use on built-in cabinets?

As a side note I have 400' of trim and 5 doors to finish. I'd like to use the same Emtech 8000 on the trim work. It'll be stained poplar.

Is this a good or bad idea?

Thanks,
Wes

[Mike Goetzke]

Wes - I switched to Taget WB finishes a little over a year ago. I used to use lacquers and oil based poly before I got serious about spray finishing. I'm still not comfortable/confident with the way the finish looks right after I lay it down but after about 20 min. these Target finishes really level out nicely. Just a warning so you don't panic like I did the first time I sprayed a WB finish. Good Luck!

Mike

[Scott Holmes]

Gloss will highlight every flaw. Satin will hide most flaws.

For a Gloss finish the surface MUST BE FLAT or uniformly curved if it's not a flat surface. Flat and smooth are not the same.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, I tend to use the satin most of the time. I actually used up the last of the quart of USL gloss I had lying about on the tack trunk project I finished (literally) last week and don't feel compelled to replace it.

[Jamie Schmitz]

This is the most durable water base finish I have seen. Tricky to spray perhaps. Fairly easy to brush though, get a good quality brush and go light coats. I get mine from OSH. It does come in it's own spray cans too.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4055/4255476230_8620030950_o.jpg

[Scott Holmes]

Jamie,

NOT nearly as durable as the top quality oil based varnishes.

Per the MSDS, it is nothing more than a common water-borne acrylic, with a bit of poly added.

Windex and many other household cleaners will damage it. Hairspray and nail polish remover will ruin it.

[Jamie Schmitz]

Interesting finish for quick turn arounds. Very expensive though

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-_td0hzNVg

[Jeff Nolan]

I shoot the EM8000 series all the time, love it. It goes down like the 6000 but it has a considerably longer flash time, levels really well, and it's a varnish so it's non-yellowing and very durable. For a bathroom or any wet high use location, this is an excellent choice. I have been using less of the 6000 series for the last year because I'm so pleased with the 8000.

One reply mentioned Enduro finishes, I have used that line in the past with good results but don't like to mix. It's good to sample but pick a single brand that you rely on because you will develop a good feel for the product and reducing variables is a key part of quality output.

As for gloss, semi, or satin... unless I have to shoot gloss I try not to. The trend remains on the flatter end of the spectrum so satin is a safe choice but my personal preference is semi-gloss, which has just enough pop to give it some glass but not enough to be obvious.

You should not thin a water based product, in my experience. You can buy a Ford #4 cup to test the viscosity but again, in my opinion, what is coming out of the can for a fresh finish is just about right as long as you are spraying in conditions recommended by the manufacturer (heat, humidity, etc.)

Jeff @ Homestead is my go to guy if I need to have stuff tinted but increasingly I am using Finish Zone for the reasons that have already been said, free shipping.

[Arthur Travers]

Hi Jim:
This question was directed to you

Does it really make any difference whether using satin/semi or gloss if you are going to
rub and wax the finish?

[Jim Becker]

Hi Jim:
This question was directed to you

Does it really make any difference whether using satin/semi or gloss if you are going to
rub and wax the finish?

Well...if you're going to rub out to a sheen less that gloss, shooting gloss makes sense since you start at the "top" of the sheen and work your way to where you want to be. Further, your finish doesn't have the flattening agents in it...the stuff you have to stir really well if you buy a satin/semi product off the shelf.

Do remember that your finish should have plenty of time to fully cure before you rub it out. That applies to water borne finishes, too. There is still a chemical cure within the actual finish that's merely carried by the water onto the surface of your project.

[Jamie Schmitz]

Hi Jim:
This question was directed to you

Does it really make any difference whether using satin/semi or gloss if you are going to
rub and wax the finish?

I hope you are not talking about waxing a water base coating because I would not recommend this.

[Victor Robinson]

I don't have the finishing experience most others here do, but I used EM2000 varnish (satin) to finish our mahogany kitchen cabinet doors. I tinted some of the topcoat layers with black Transtint to tone (having used a WB stain as well, the color was coming out a bit lighter than I wanted).

I haven't used many of the other WB finishes out there, but my experience with the stuff was good enough that I may not even bother checking out other brands. I buy direct from Target Coatings via their Finishing Zone storefront.

[Scott Holmes]

When I use a water-borne it's usually EM6000.

[Jeff Nolan]

EM6000 is the best waterborne lacquer IMO, which considering it's the successor to the Oxford Ultima line is no surprise. There is really nothing to complain about, really good stuff.

The reason why I switched over to the 8000 line is twofold. The 6000 yellows like all lacquers do and on a couple of occasions I have had to go back to repair damaged work or match new pieces to work already in place and the finish became problematic, and while the 6000 is a durable finish it is also brittle which makes it more susceptible to damage.

The EM8000cv gives me extreme durability (water, UV, impacts) and remain water white clear. The one downside is that the time required between coats is longer so if you spray area isn't sterile that means there will be more opportunity for contaminants (it seems that without fail lately a bug will descend on whatever I have just sprayed). For kitchens, any wet location, and when durability is critical there is nothing else I will reach for.

It's also worth pointing out that Target has a new resin sealer, EM1000, that is replacing the 8800, that tints well and sands easily which makes it a great compliment to the 8000 top coat.


When I use a water-borne it's usually EM6000.

[Scott Holmes]

Jeff,

EM 6000 is a great finish, as are their other finishes... BUT it's not really lacquer, as in NitroCellulose Lacquer. It's an excellent acrylic water-borne finish. Technically it is a coalescing finish.

It does not dissolve when the solvent is reapplied as NC lacquer does when lacquer thinner is reapplied. Coalescing finishes are precured arcylic, softened in glycol ether and dispersed in water.

[Jeff Nolan]

It is absolutely a lacquer, an acrylic lacquer which is as you point out not a nitro-cellulose lacquer, but both are definitely lacquers. Are urushiol lacquers not really lacquers as well?

[Jim Becker]

Scott, EM6000 does burn-in/redissolve when re-coated. It's one of the features of the product.