LN News Letter Comment on O1 vs A2

[Jim Koepke]

Lie Nielsen sends out a news letter on a regular basis.

This month there was a comment about their new O1 bevel chisels.


Our A-2 Steel chisels will hold an edge extremely well, especially when sharpened at an angle of 30 degrees or higher. Some folks however prefer O-1 Tool Steel, because O-1 holds up better at lower angles, 25 degrees or less, making them more useful for slicing or paring tasks. So in response to customer requests, we are making our standard five sizes available in O-1.

jim

[Rob Davidson]

I saw them on the LN website yesterday and placed an order. Well see how they are...

[Eddie Darby]

Thanks for the heads-up !!!

I'll have to go to their site.

[Barry Vabeach]

I sat through an intro to dovetailing by Rob Cosman ( not the full class) and he talked about the tearout - bending that you see in the middle of the wood when you chop down the strike line, from either side, after using a fret saw to remove most of the waste. He said he had nearly eliminated that problem by grinding some of his smaller chisels to low angels ( IIRC 18 ) I thought he was using LN's but I don't recall whether he was using the A2. He said he settled at 18 because the chipping of the chisel that occurred when he went any lower. I just tried it with an old 0-1 and went to 20 and the edge looks pretty fragile, but I haven't tried it that much. I wonder if he asked LN to offer O-1 to accomodate that concern.

[Sean Hughto]

Barry, FWIW I never worry much about how pretty or ugly that endgrain is as it will never be seen once the joint is assembled and which contributes little or nothing to the strength of the joint. Indeed, I often undercut this portion a bit, making a very shallow V to keep the highest points at those visible edges and thereby ensure a tight joint.

Am I missing something? Why does Cosman thing that the results of this chopping or paring should be pretty?

[James Taglienti]

I have got a couple chisels that i grind down to 20 or a bit less... they last for about a half hour of continuous use... i was going even more acute but they would just fracture and leave little bits of steel in the wood that would further damage the chisel later on. it was actually a humorous situation.

[Barry Vabeach]

Sean, it was his feeling, and he diagrammed it and it made sense, that the chipping came from the bending of the fibers before they sheared - if so then you would have a hump in the middle instead of a dip. He said he likes to avoid extra steps - so if you could get that straight, instead of humped, you saved some time in not having to go back to make a shallow v. IIRC, he was concerned that if the V is made too wide, there is a risk the exposed edges would be very thin and could compress too much when you assemble it, though I may not have caught that correctly.

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, Barry. I understand the concept. I make my dts somewhat differently than Mr. Cosman. Among other things, I chop out the waste, for example. I therefore, can form the slight v inthe chopping process, and very quickly pare the hair's width down to the scribe line on the edges left in chopping because you want to start the chop a tiny fraction from the scribe line. Everyone has their methods.

Thanks for the reply.

[Jim Nardi]

They should have gone to a better steel. One of the powdered steels that will really hold up. I don't think the 01 is really and improvement. They went to A2 on the theory the edge would hold up all that more. LV is selling japanese dovetail chisels that hold up just as well at LN. This whole sharp vs sharper is an argument in the land of diminishing returns. To get there you need to buy a stone that is in the 300 dollar range and have some serious skill.

[Larry Williams]

They should have gone to a better steel. One of the powdered steels that will really hold up. I don't think the 01 is really and improvement. They went to A2 on the theory the edge would hold up all that more. LV is selling japanese dovetail chisels that hold up just as well at LN. This whole sharp vs sharper is an argument in the land of diminishing returns. To get there you need to buy a stone that is in the 300 dollar range and have some serious skill.

I disagree, I think the O-1 is a huge step forward. IMO the magic-bullet, "hold an edge forever" steels are the dream of those who haven't mastered basic sharpening. This post reminds me of a guy on another forum who started out looking for a steel that would hold an edge, should he ever get one, forever. He wanted to avoid the learning curve and expense of learning to sharpen. He now may be the world's authority on diamond sharpening, has probably spent more time sharpening and spent more money on sharpening supplies than anyone I've heard of. All to avoid learning to sharpen???

The real diminishing return, I think, is when sharpening becomes more labor and resource intensive than actual woodworking. Sharpening should be easy and fast--learn it and move on.

[Jim Koepke]

This post reminds me of a guy on another forum who started out looking for a steel that would hold an edge, should he ever get one, forever.

If a steel could hold an edge forever, then it would be impossible to sharpen.

The dreamers never see the obvious, only the dream...

jim

[Kevin Adams]

If anyone wants to see further evidence of what Larry is talking about, I would highly recommend his new dvd on sharpening molding plane irons. Two or three basic oil stones (and the Indias will set you back less than $20 each), a strop, a diamond stone to condition the stones, and a can of wd-40...it really couldn't be easier. After all of my experimenting over the years, I'm right back where I started and have more time to worry about design and execution of projects rather than what new sharpening paraphernalia I need.

Of course, this is just my humble, amateur opinion and everyone is entitled to their own journey on the subject. And btw, I have changed out my few L-N irons with their O-1 and am very pleased. I also have O-1 in my LV spokeshaves.

Take care,
Kevin

[rob cosman]

Quick note to clairify, I have a few chisels I have ground primary bevels at 17 degrees, a degree or two higher on the secondary and a degree or so extra for the tertiary. I use these on soft woods, the ones that tend to fracture under the cutting pressure of the chisel particulary between the tails and pins. While this part of the joint does not contribute to the effective glue surface of the joint, when it fractures it often comes very close to the surface. If during clean up of the finished joint you have to remove more material than originally expected, the area becomes translucent or worse shows a gap. My friend and mentor the late Alan Peters actually worried about the appearence of unseen surfaces such as these. In his words "there is only one way to do the job"!

As per O1 vs A-2, I still say the cryo treated A-2 chisels I have will hold an edge better than any chisel I have used even at the extreme angle I mentioned above. I have been working with a metal manufacture for the past year, interesting how those that work this stuff everyday often have very different opinions than those that market the same. To say the least I have had my eyes opened. "Properly" treated cryo A-2 rules in my shop. cheers
Rob

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks for the details, Rob. I too find A2 just fine.

As for the breaking fibers, you no doubt know this, but for the potential benefit of those here who might not, I would mention that pushing a chisel across the fibers in a straight line courts breaks, but moving the chisel in a slicing motion - on a diagonal or in an arc - provides a much cleaner cut with less chance of fiber breaks. The one place this may be hard to do is at the base of the tails board where the pins openings are expecially narrow - i.e., you need one of your narrowest chisels anyway, and can only effectively cut the waste at the center of the board by pushing the chisel forward (no room to slice).

[george wilson]

Powdered metal is ghastly expensive. I noticed that MSC apparently stopped listing it in their 2010 catalog. Probably few sales.

Some of these more sophisticated steels will not take an extremely sharp edge either,because their grain structure is too coarse to allow such. They are made for cutting metal,not wood.

As for sharpening the most difficult steels,My system of diamond stone,white,then black Spyderco ceramic stones,and a bit of strop works just fine. I have a pocket knife with a D2 blade that needs to be sharpened on the very hard ceramic stones. Softer stones won't abrade it.

[Jim Nardi]

I disagree, I think the O-1 is a huge step forward. IMO the magic-bullet, "hold an edge forever" steels are the dream of those who haven't mastered basic sharpening. This post reminds me of a guy on another forum who started out looking for a steel that would hold an edge, should he ever get one, forever. He wanted to avoid the learning curve and expense of learning to sharpen. He now may be the world's authority on diamond sharpening, has probably spent more time sharpening and spent more money on sharpening supplies than anyone I've heard of. All to avoid learning to sharpen???

The real diminishing return, I think, is when sharpening becomes more labor and resource intensive than actual woodworking. Sharpening should be easy and fast--learn it and move on.

LN did make their chisels out of A2 for a reason. LN appears to follow a philosphy of only making slight improvements on what others have invented. Which is probably their business stadegy. Going to 01 from high carbon steel is no real improvement. If they stray from their business plan and start making tools no better than what you can buy off of e-bay how will they stay in business? Selling chisels made from a powdered steel for $75 or more each and x amount worth of sharpening supplies appears to be money maker. People do buy tools on a perceived or real notion that they are better. I am sure Thomas has looked at mass production of quite a few diffrent steels for several products. The true cost of the steel for a chisel could only be a few dollars more when your talking about economies of scale. There are quite a few people now making planes blades out of very exotic tool steels.