Your expert advice wanted!!

[Joshua Easter]

I would like to start this thread with a big thanks to everyone who has posted helpful, useful and much needed information for all of us that are not as expericenced and need help on topics for time to time.

I have an age ol' question for all of you fellow wood enthusiast's so without further adieu: I am currently in the market for a new cabinet saw and after hours and hours of eye straining research I have come to the conclusion, I must ask for advice from more seasoned woodworkers.

Let me clairify my current and future uses for the saw; I am currently a hardcore hobbiest who has a serious issue when it comes to working with wood, I just can't get enough if you know what I mean! This all started a few years back when I was remodeling my current home, well that small remodel job turned into a life changing event. As the time progressed I found myself not only wood working for my own benefit but now I was conducting small jobs here and there for family members and friends. I am pretty sure that is how most of us started, right? Now I have started my own wood working business that I run when I am not at my full time profession. I currently build cabinets, mantels, furniture and any other items that you can put in a home. I currently own a Craftsman professional cast iron top cabinet saw with a Biesemeyer fence, the saw is ok and when needed works to the best of its abilities, there are some small issues that I have with the saw one being the 1 3/4 hp motor/w single belt does not have enough muscle for my taste but one could say that is all personal opinion, right? Some of the other issues are as follows: Trunnion is small and weak, Single v-belt and the Dust collection is piss poor. To say the least the saw is great for someone who wants to continue as a hobbiest not for someone who wants to go professional or has a long lasting pasion for wood working.

Now that everyone has a better idea of how I use my saw and the purposes behind why I do what I do it is time to get down to the good stuff. I have currently been debating between purchasing a top of the line cabinet saw or completely going to the other side and purchasing a sliding table saw......The differences between the two are staggering from the research I have conducted. There are two major issues I am having from pulling the trigger on a sliding table saw:
1. Space availablity in my current shop. I only have a two car garage where I conduct all of my handy work and until I build my new house which will have a 30'x50 shop in the back I have to sapce everything accordingly in the space I have available.
2. Cost between the two is quite substantial, I am not cheap but I just do not have $6k-$10k laying around for a saw. In no way am I suggesting that Martin, Felder, MiniMax, Altendorf or any other manufacture does not make a great product or their product is not worth what they are asking, I'm saying, me as a person do not have the funds at this point and time for one of these high quality pieces of equipment. On the other hand I might be able to purchase a nice used unit from an individual or a company who is upgrading to newer equipment. There are draw backs to purchasing used equipment, one you never know what the machine has been through and two how the individual treated or maintained the unit.

I have been told once you step over the line and purchase a sliding table saw you will never go back to a traditional American saw. As for the learning curve that you experience when using a sliding table saw I am not concerned about for that is part of the fun, I think.

On the other hand you have your traditional American table saws that we all know and love so well. I have many thoughts and debate's over many of the saws on the market these days. Out of all the manufacture's out there I would only purchase a few; SawStop, General (not International) made in Canada only, Oliver and Northfield. I am not a fan of machines and casting that are sub contracted or made in China or any other foregin country who decides to subtract quality for quanity!! Let's just say I like my machines to last and fucntion properly, not to mention that when you assembly the unit it goes together properly...

SawStop and General are on the top of my list for new model table saws but I was reading somewhere that SawStop was sub contracting out to foreign soil!! Is this correct? Also has this new unit been tested over time? I understand the safety awareness behind the unit, don't get me wrong I think the company has a great idea but what I am want to know is R&D time for this unit. I want a machine that is built by a company who has tested their unit(s) to the extreme's, I want a machine that has been tested by "we the people" not some machine that recieves rave reviews from some magazine where the manufacture hands some cash to the editor for a "BEST IN CLASS" review. I want a unit that has and will stand the test of time!!

Now let's look at the other end of the spectrum; We have the older generation saws like Oliver & Northfield that were built and manufactured when companies took pride in their products and did not worry about lining their pockets at the expense of the consumer by making cheap products....I am mechanically inclined so conducting a rebuild of an old unit would not be an issue. These machine's have been around for some time, their parts are heavy duty to say the least and if one keeps the maintenance up to par the machine will out last its operator.

Any ways I would greatly appreciate your input on both subjects at hand.

1. Slider vs Traditional ? Pro's & Con's
2. New vs Old on the Traditional American Cabinet Saws? Pro's & Con's

Again I appreciate all your time on this matter, I know this thread is quite long but I just want to be thorough, making sure all basis are covered. Take care and have a great day.

Cheers,

Josh

[scott spencer]

Josh - There's nothing wrong with taking the big leap and getting exactly what you want for now and future use if you can justify and afford something like a commercial slider. I suppose one downside of taking that leap is that we don't really know what technology will show up in the future, and render your expensive saw obsolete. It's also not possible to determine what your interest level will be like in 10-15 years.

There's also sound wisdom in taking advantage of a nice deal on a good used traditional style cabinet saw. There's less downside risk, and most of these saws can easily be made to operate like new.

There are also some current opportunities that are pretty appealing to a hobbiest or light commercial user with some of the compelling deals from Grizzly right now. ie: the Shop Fox W1677 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/W1677-Shop-Fox-Heavy-Duty-Tablesaw/T21849) 3hp cabinet saw (same as the G1023SL) is currently being offered for $795 ($889 shipped). It is made in Taiwan and lacks a riving knife, but a slider and a "************" aftermarket riving knife (~$100) can be added if you wanted. For another $100 you can jump to 5hp. These saws are well proven and have a fairly large and happy following of serious hobbyists and light commercial users. There's not much downside risk, and you just may find that it'll suit your needs for a very long time. If not, it's not hard to imagine selling this saw easily in the $700-$750 range.

Just my 2 cents.

[Joshua Easter]

Scott, thank you for all your input. I am in total agreeance with you on entire technology issue. That seems to be an issue the entire world is experiencing, the advancements in technology are great but enough is enough. Please understand I do like technology but not when it changes fast so fast that if you spend $10k on a saw and with in 5 years it is out of date!! I mean come on!!! I think we all work hard for our money and I know I do not want to give it away if I do not have to....

I have looked into Grizzly but my main issue with the comapny is where the product is manufactured. I can not get myself past that fact, I have to have an item that is manufactured either on the American continent or in Europe that is the bottom line. That is just my opinion so no hard feelings please.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Josh, I am a hobby user and went through the usual saw progression, a contractor saw, a General 650, and now I have a Hammer B3 Winner on order for April delivery.

I have the same purchasing bias you have, I only want Canadian, American or European machinery.

The cabinet saw hasn't changed in what, 80 years? All it does well is rip wood that already has a straight edge.

A slider can rip as well as a cabinet saw, yet it can also straight line rip sheet goods or rough stock, and cross cut sheet goods or solid stock.

Once you've used a sliding saw, you'll wonder why you didn't get one earlier.

As to space, the Felder/Hammer machines have easily detached outrigger tables that reduce the saw cabinet dimensions to the same size as a cabinet saw. So if you find that you're ripping stock continuously, or working on small pieces, or want to store the saw, you can remove the outrigger table in a minute.

Yes the price is high, however so is the accuracy, quality, and flexibility.

To me, the slider is a "no brainer" decision for your application.


Regards, Rod.

[Terry Rogan]

Josh, you're thinking too much. :D

For a serious woodworker, the basis for all the work you do will "simply" be a cabinet saw of high quality that runs with no vibration and has a true table and accessories that are true to the blade and table.

The single desireable thing about the Saw Stop is it's safety feature. I can't speak for the saw's quality and features, but just know that it's patented safety feature is what it's all about.
So if that kind of safety is important to you, then it should be your only choice.

Beyond that, I'd stay with the long tried and true cabinet saws like the Unisaw, or the Powermatic, or even the General.
Keep in mind that even brand new saws need to be fine tuned and tweaked to bring out it's true capabilities, just like a good hand plane requires the same after purchasing.
As far as a sliding table saw, I don't see the need. You won't be doing that much that needs a sliding table in the first place, and secondly, there are very good sliding table add-ons that you can install on a basic cabinet saw. However, even after all these years, I have personally still not seen the need to do so.

In my business, I don't use "typical" woodworking equipment because what I do is produce mouldings and trim using high-speed Weinig moulding equipment (Hydromat), and my "lil' ol' planer" is a four-head Pinheiro that I can run a truckload of lumber through in a day. A gang-rip saw allows me to keep up with those production requirements.

But I am also a woodworking hobbyiest on the side, and my cabinet saw is a Unisaw that I bought almost 20 years ago and still performs like new. I wouldn't give it up for anything else because it is the most used piece of (personal) woodworking equipment I have.

So my advice is what you already know; get a well built cabinet saw.
Beyond that, I'd stay with Delta or Powermatic or General due to their long term reputation for parts availability. And for that same reason, I'd avoid an import (from anywhere). My Weinig equipment is made in Germany, and even though they have a well stocked distributer here in the US, there have still been times when I had to have a part brought in from Germany.

Just my .02....

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I can tell you why I have a Felder slider if that helps your thought process any. I started with a Delta contractor saw, than a Jet cabinet saw. Both of those where good tools, but when I learned a little about the euro style saws, it became obvious quickly that the inherent design limitations of those old style machines was never going to be as efficient or offer the same working opportunities as a euro slider.

After much thought, I decided that I wanted to try the euro approach because it seemed to open up many other possibilities in my pursuit of woodworking bliss. I wanted to be able to use a sliding table to aid in cabinet construction, as the biggest cut off sled ever, and for the shaper that my machine includes.

What actually happened is a little different. I was thinking about the old work flow. The euro approach is different, and once I got that figured out, an epiphany happened. I am at least twice as fast with the Felder, while being safer, and more accurate. It is also just plain fun to use. I have never regretted the change.

I'm not trying to tell you that it's the only way to go, or the best or any of that, but I can tell you that for me, a slider saw opened up a whole new level of woodworking that I am really enjoying.

Another issue, this is a really good time to find some fantastic deals on used machines, sliding saws included.

Good luck!

[scott spencer]

...I can not get myself past that fact, I have to have an item that is manufactured either on the American continent or in Europe that is the bottom line. That is just my opinion so no hard feelings please.

I can certainly respect a man for sticking with his convictions.

[Joshua Easter]

Rod you definitely make a good point with the idea of removable outrigger tables, that would work in my situation perfectly. I have been concentrating hard on Felder products for a few different reason's, one their price is more feasible, second some models they offer are smaller in scale with less options. I do not require a machine to have fancy electronics to move the blade into the up or down position or tilt back and forth, for the price I can more than manually control those options myself.

Terry again I have an issue with the new Delta and Powermatic products, as you stated you have a Unisaw that is 20yrs old, that's when Delta products were made with pride and when America took serious pride in their products and not at their pocket books. Correct me if I am wrong but Delta/PorterCable is owned by Black & Decker Corp. which is operated by Pentair. We all know what happens to manufactures who are obtained by major corporations, their products go down hill while their profits go up. Again I want quality, quality, quality not just a name........

Steve I feel like my inner being is directing me to have a closer look into a slider. I really do like Felder, I contacted them via email yesterday for more techincal information on their products and I was amazed when I had a return email from them stating my request had been processed and I should have my catalog's shortly. Not to mention it was a real person who responded to my email not a generated computer email! Can we say "NICE" very nice.


No worries Scott I do appreciate the honesty.

Keep all the information and advice coming. Thanks again


Cheers

Josh

[steven swango]

My brother-in-law works for a company called Rexroth in Lexington, Ky. They make Black & Decker products, which is a subcompany of Bosch. He was telling me that by next year they are changing the name on his building to Bosch.
I use to work for a company called Leggett & Platt in the Winchester Ky. plant. At that plant at one time we made all Craftmatic Ele. beds as well as most of their competers beds. We also in our plant made most ALL bed frames, I have personaly placed one sticker over top of another brand name sticker because we were out of stock on a Simons product, the frames was the exact same made in the same plant by the same people, the only differencs was the name brand, the box the product went in and of corse the price. So I guess what I'm saying is that you really do have to look very very deep into who made your goods to find out the truth about it, and then you may not find the true makers of it.
On another note, when it comes to quality. When time was slow and the warehouses was getting full the bosses became very picky about what would pass and what wouldn't, when the warehouses was getting pretty empty things that was set to the side to be sent back because it was off a little bit was all of a sudden good enough to use because we needed them to fill the orders. example ( a jig got off that held 2 small arms that got welded to a tube that a Ele. bed motor mounted to, which put the motor in a small bind, for over a week we had to replace the tube which took a couple of mins. but when we got a big order in all of a sudden they were good enough) it was no safty concern just quality.
"CRAFTMATIC MADE IN AMERICA" I know it is because we put that sticker on every one of the beds, fact is all of the control boxes and their remotes comes from China all of the ply-wood beleive it or not comes from Russia the motors I'm not sure about, the steel did come from Philly.
Joshua I'm just like you when it comes to wanting my good to come from America, I'm in the Ky National Guards, I have done a tour in Iraq and will soon be heading to Afgan so yes I try to buy only American but I also know that it is hard to find something made entirly in America.
Leggett & Platt is a components Corp. and I'll be willing to bet very few people ever heard of them, but when you lay in bed tonight over 80% of you will be laying on a mattress that has springs inside made by them ( be it a Sealy or other brand) some has more coils than others, different gause wire tells you the firmest it will be, the fabric we don't do but 80% of the springs we make.

[Mike Heidrick]

Have you considered the new unisaw?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Josh, there is a guy selling a nice used Felder sliding saw for a good price on the Yahoo Felder Owner Group right now. If you are interested in that sort of thing, the constant banter from that crowd can be pretty educational, and there is usually at least a good lead or two on used machines. I don't remember the exact procedure to sign up, but basically you get email from everybody in the group.

[Van Huskey]

Have you considered the new unisaw?


If he is worried about SS contracting off shore for some of its parts then he would have a cow over the Uni, assembled here but not really made here by any stretch of the term.

[Rick Fisher]

Saw Stop is made in Taiwan by Geetech.. The brake is the domestic part.. The "Part" that SawStop sources in Taiwan.. is the saw .. part.. lol..

The new Oliver is all Taiwanese machinery.. they install Baldor motors but the rest is Asian..

If you have the space, I would buy a nice Euro Slider..

I have become the same way.. I have 4 Euro Tools now, and really like them. I would not trust the new Delta Unisaw to actually be made in the USA.. I could be wrong, but would bet the cabinet and top are imported and "assembled in the USA".. This is Black and Decker we are talking about.. :)

[Joshua Easter]

Mike the main issue with Delta, SawStop and many other manufactures is like Van & Rick stated you will end up with a product that has been assembled in the USA with foreign parts.....The way companies sub contract everything is absouletly amazing now days! What happened to the days of pride of workmanship! I am not even sure if Powermatic is made in the states anymore, I believe the only traditional American cabinet saw that is built and assembled on the contient of North America is General, not the international side the Canadian side.

Steve I have registered with FOG and I am currently waiting for their approval process to be completed. I would definitely purchase a nice used Felder if the price was right. One issue is locating one that is close enough to drive to make the transaction, I like to see the unit run before I ever finalize a deal. As soon as I receive conformation from the FOD adminstrators I am going to take a closer look at what machines are available. I appreciate all the information about the website.

Thanks to all of you for the useful information, keep it coming.

Cheers,

Josh

[John Coloccia]

For what it's worth, I currently have a SawStop. I also have a Jet JJP12 Jointer Planer. If I had it to do all over again, I probably would have gotten a European Slider/Jointer/Planer/Shaper combo machine. It takes up a lot less room and is far more useful, in my opinion. I will probably upgrade in a couple of years, sell off a bunch of stuff, and do just that. This isn't a shot against the SS or the Jet as I have nothing but nice things to say about those, but the European style machines are just a little nicer, I think, and do well in a small shop like mine.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Josh, where are you located? The saw that I mentioned was in Denver.

[Rick Fisher]

Mike the main issue with Delta, SawStop and many other manufactures is like Van & Rick stated you will end up with a product that has been assembled in the USA with foreign parts.....The way companies sub contract everything is absouletly amazing now days! What happened to the days of pride of workmanship! I am not even sure if Powermatic is made in the states anymore, I believe the only traditional American cabinet saw that is built and assembled on the contient of North America is General, not the international side the Canadian side.

Steve I have registered with FOG and I am currently waiting for their approval process to be completed. I would definitely purchase a nice used Felder if the price was right. One issue is locating one that is close enough to drive to make the transaction, I like to see the unit run before I ever finalize a deal. As soon as I receive conformation from the FOD adminstrators I am going to take a closer look at what machines are available. I appreciate all the information about the website.

Thanks to all of you for the useful information, keep it coming.

Cheers,

Josh

The new Powermatic is made by Geetech in Taiwan.. The end of the 66 was (I beleive) the end of Powermatic making tools in the USA ..

The Sawstop is the same.. I dont believe the Sawstop of Powermatic are even assemebled in the USA . other than the brake on the Sawstop..

The only truly domestic saw left is the General made in Canada..

[John Harden]

Josh, like a lot of folks, I went through the benchtop saw, contractors saw, progression. Bought a PM66 when they were still made in the U.S. and had it for 9 years. Excellent saw!!!

Finally sold it and bought a Felder 700 series. No comparison.

As others have said a Euro slider made by Felder or MiniMax will do everything a cabinet saw can, do it better and safer, and do a whole lot more.

There's a misconception by many that they are only for sheet goods. Not so. I have a 9' slider on mine and very rarely use sheet goods. All my ripping is done to the left of the blade, usually with the wood clamped down. My hands never come near the blade.

Downside of course is cost. They do cost more, but you more than get what you pay for.

Both MM and Felder make less expensive versions that are in your price range.

Heck, you could even get a full combo if you're interested, or if not, a saw/shaper combo. This is what I have.

I was looking at the Grizzly sliders at AWFS and was impressed. They don't have the accessories that Felder or MM offer and aren't as refined, but still a good value in my opinion. Only thing I'd be worried about with them is continuing support for parts, etc. They change models quite often as their manufacturers change things. Probably wouldn't ever be an issue, but something to keep in mind.

Perhaps the best advice I can give you would be to contact Felder and MM and they'll put you in touch with someone in your area who owns the tools you're interested in and would let you come over to see and use them. I did this and it is invaluable. There's nothing like seeing them "in the flesh" and being able to use them. Both companies are very professional and won't try to hard sell you.

Regards,

John

[Chip Lindley]

Joshua, the farther back in history we go, the more real *Made in USA* equipment is available. Don't rule out a nice, clean used machine. You will be part of America's true manufacturing heritage, AND you will get lots of bang for the buck! Add an Excalibur/Exaktor slider and you will have a very flexible setup for breaking down sheet goods OR ripping solid stock. I LOVE my old Powermatic 66 and Exaktor setup!