Sawstop!

[David Colafranceschi]

I know a few members have owned these machines for a couple of years. What are the likes and dislikes for them? Would you do it again?

[John Coloccia]

The only bad thing I have to say about the SawStop, at least the contractor saw, is that the blade guard stinks for at least two different reasons. I replaced it with a SharkGuard and everything works much better.

If I upgrade to a cabinet saw, it will absolutely be a SawStop cabinet saw. That sums up how I feel right there.

[David Prince]

Everytime I put my fingers in the blade it keeps stopping the saw. It is getting hard to get my work done! :eek:

[Andy Sowers]

I've had a PCS sawstop since the field testing program started last April. If I had to do all over, I'd definitely buy it again. In addition to the safety brake, the fit/finish of the saw is excellent.

HTH
Andy

[Brian Peters]

Likes:

Lowers insurance premiums
Solid well built saw with no "cheaped out features"
Saves fingers and expensive trips to the ER
Gives you better peace of mind that your employees are working with the safest saw made


Dislikes:

None yet

[Barry Vabeach]

David, the SS is fairly pricey, as such you can expect most users to be pretty defensive of their decisions to purchase. I have the PCS, and overall am very impressed. There is no doubt that their manual was written in English, not translated, and the assembly packets set a new level ( the screws are blistered packed so that each size is separate, and the cards are color coded so you know what section applies to each part) The overall fit and finish is excellent, the adjustability seems to be top notch. The only downside, IMHO, was the contractor and ICS seemed to have too high a price premium for the blade brake technology. In contrast, I think the PCS and the new Uni are comparably priced which means that you get the blade brake for free. I haven't heard anything which would maket the new Uni much better than the PCS, other than its riving knife adjustment is way cooler, but that is offset by the blade brake. Other downsides to the SS is you need a separate brake cartridge to use a dado, and you can only use standard sized blades - for ex. you can't use a 7 1/4 blade on the saw since it will sit too far from the sensor - neither of those apply to me, but they could apply to some. One final upside is CS is excellent - I assume you would get the same CS from Delta, but from what I have read, not sure about some of the other competitors. I was told by someone who used the SS ICS that you buy the saw for the brake, but once you get it home you realize you would have bought it even if it didn't have the brake.

[David Schmaus]

I have the PCS and smile every time I walk into the shop. It is a pleasure to use. Only negative is the cost but I'm over it...

[brian watson]

Got the contractor saw and would absolutely do it again in a heart beat. A wonderful peice of machinery.

[Paul Ryan]

I have had the PCS saw since March and would not trade it for anything at this point. The only dislike I have is the price. $3,000 is a lot for a table saw, but insignificant if it saves my or someone else's fingers. It is a really nice table saw. To be honest the best table saw I have ever used. With the dust collecting guard it is really the cats but. I guess my other concern is the saw is too nice to cut green treated on. So I have to use my neighbors old jet for that.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I have the big ICS. The saw is everything I expected. My only complaint is that it takes a little longer to change between a regular blade and a dado stack... but I knew that going in to it.

In the end, it will not improve your woodworking. However, it may save a body part!

[Don Bullock]

What's not to like? I have the original SawStop table saw (now called the Industrial Cabinet Saw). I'm pleased every time I use it. The contractors I've had working on my house and garage/shop the past two years have all been amazed at how nice it is and how easy it is to use. I need to add, however, that I'm using an Incra fence with mine instead of the SawStop fence, but I think I'd be just as pleased with their fence. Yes, it cost me a lot of money. I feel that it was money well spent and would recommend a SawStop to anyone especially now that they have a choice of saws.

[mreza Salav]

I have the ICS version (for a few months) and love it. Very accurate and well built. Every think you imagine is adjustable on it and safety features are not just limited to the brake and riving knife. It has the largest table size and the fence is great.

The only complain I have is it takes a bit longer to change blades as I have to spend 30 second to adjust the brake if the blade sizes are different (some are 25cm and some are 10"). Also, changing to dado brake takes twice as much time since I have to change the brake too, but that's Ok.
Overall, I think this will be my last table saw and I'll buy it again.

[Cliff Holmes]

Don, I'm considering an ICS and I want to transfer my Incra fence over. Other than $70 for the new fence and base, are there any issues to watch out for?

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I have the "old" 5 horse ICS. The saw is the best saw I have used, and I am not in the least bit unhappy with it. I hope to never test the brake feature. Every time I start the saw, it makes me happy. Never have to worry about cutting a finger off. I was beginning to get afraid of my old contractors saw. I personally know 3 people who cut parts of thier finger(s) off. Being afraid of a saw is as dangerous as being careless IMO. Having the peace of mind to not be afraid of the saw, is worth buying the saw. As everyone else has already said, the saw is a top shelf saw. NO regrets.

Dislike? Cost...... But you get over it.

[Brian Tymchak]

My only complaint is that it takes a little longer to change between a regular blade and a dado stack...

Does the blade break work with a dado? Or is there a special break for dados? That question has been in the back of my mind since I first saw the SS advertised.

Thanks, Brian

[Cliff Holmes]

Yes, there's a separate brake for dado blades since they're only 8" (tighter curve)

[Cliff Holmes]

Ick, this kind of stuff is why I'm seriously thinking of a SS

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=522574&id=1597515465

[Chris Padilla]

...and you can only use standard sized blades - for ex. you can't use a 7 1/4 blade on the saw since it will sit too far from the sensor...

Ah, interesting point about the SS that I hadn't considered. There have been a few occasions using my Griz 1023 where the 12" blade from the miter saw came in handy.

One time was using my sled and cutting a tallish piece...the 10" blade wasn't gonna make it and I got to looking around the shop and spotted my MS and said, "Hmmm, will it fit and give me a 'taller' cut?" Sure did....

[Darrin Davis]

I would buy it again even if it didn't have the brake feature.(cheaper of course) I don't think the saw could be built any better! I have a Delta X5 that I love but I always like using the SS better.

[Don Bullock]

Don, I'm considering an ICS and I want to transfer my Incra fence over. Other than $70 for the new fence and base, are there any issues to watch out for?

There were no problems at all installing the Incra with the lengthened parts. There are quite a few of us here on the Creek with Incra's on our SawStops. I know of one person who successfully installed a "stock" (without the longer pieces) Incra on his SawStop.

[Cliff Holmes]

Not being arrogant, but I trust my instincts using a TS

I just don't understand why people think that only a careless moron would want/need a SS. Personally, I think the bottom line is that SS owners have accidents at the same rate as other users, it's just that the consequences are nowhere nearly as severe.

I've been using tablesaws for almost 40 years with no accidents. I most likely will never have an accident. But I'm not dumb enough to think it could never happen. For me, the consequences of losing my finger(s) would be catastrophic, I would most likely lose my ability to earn a living for quite a while. To protect a $100K+ income, an extra few hundred dollars seems pretty trivial.

Plus, it's a darn fine saw. Every time I go into Woodcraft I take a few minutes to play with one. The PCS price is right in line with other quality saws, it's almost like you're getting the brake system free.

[Mark Bosse]

There are two myths about SawStops:

(1) You can't cut wet wood. Well, I do it all the time. I can't cut wet PT wood. The manual makes the same point. There is a simple method to test whether "wet," or any other wood, will trip the brake.

(2) You can't use non-standard blades. I use smaller blades all the time. The brake may - repeat may - not stop a smaller blade. The gap between the brake and the blade may be too big. I have not tripped the brake with an 8" blade on. I don't want to waste the money. Just remember, the brake may not work with any setup other than the manufactures recommended set up.

Basically, you get a first rate saw and a fantastic safety system. If you go outside the manufactures recommendations, the saw still works, who knows about the safety system.

[Rod Sheridan]

If I were going to buy another cabinet saw, it would be the Saw Stop.

As others have said, it's inexpensive safety insurance.

Regards, Rod.

[Paul Ryan]

I just got my woodworkers journal today. The sawstop PCS beat out a whole bunch of other saws including the new uni, pm2000, and general 650. What made the PCS saw the "best bet" as they like to call it was the equality to the other high priced saws, the saftey system, and excellent dust collection.

[Mike Zilis]

I've had the contractor SS for about a year now. No regrets. This was my first table saw. If I had to do it over again I would get the PCS. Until something comparable comes on the market with an equivalent safety system and build quality, there's really no other table saw for me but a SawStop.

[michael case]

I'm not defensive of my purchases. Some people are, as has been suggested in these responses. But, not me. I had a Powermatic 66 and would be the first to tell you what junk it was. I own the Delta floor model drill press with that great wood worker table. But I would be first to tell you how much slop there is in the quill. If I buy a machine and it sucks I'm glad to share the bad news. I'm not shy about. I believe far too many manufacturers get away with selling far too much junk. They hate me on the Festool website where defending your purchases is a way of life. So having prefaced this I will tell you that the Sawstop industrial is finest machine I have ever purchased. Believe me if I had payed the big bucks for this machine and it was not great you would hear from me. Don't listen to nay sayers (who by the way are not SS owners) Buy it, enjoy, and never look back.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Don't listen to nay sayers (who by the way are not SS owners) Buy it, enjoy, and never look back.

I happen to own the 2 most hated/loved tools, the Shopsmith and a Sawstop.

Agree. Most (NOT all, for you flamers) of the nay sayers are those who never used either of them.... LOL I've given up defending my tools.

I feel for you Festool owners, I used a few and love them. I just CANNOT afford them. If I could, I would buy the entire line. Then, I would have 3 tools to defend.... :eek:

[Van Huskey]

I'm not defensive of my purchases. Some people are, as has been suggested in these responses. But, not me. I had a Powermatic 66 and would be the first to tell you what junk it was. I own the Delta floor model drill press with that great wood worker table. But I would be first to tell you how much slop there is in the quill. If I buy a machine and it sucks I'm glad to share the bad news. I'm not shy about. I believe far too many manufacturers get away with selling far too much junk. They hate me on the Festool website where defending your purchases is a way of life. So having prefaced this I will tell you that the Sawstop industrial is finest machine I have ever purchased. Believe me if I had payed the big bucks for this machine and it was not great you would hear from me. Don't listen to nay sayers (who by the way are not SS owners) Buy it, enjoy, and never look back.

Excellent post and I feel probably completely unbiased. I am not a SS owner but I chose not to be, in that I spent enough money to have a PCS on a different saw/fence combo. The SS is an EXCELLENT saw would be happy to have one, don't think it is overpriced and I think it is the equal of my PM2000LE in most respects and has it beat on safety and DC but for about the same money ( a little more actually) I have a saw that fits me better, a fence system that is better (for me) and a guard/DC that is better (for me) it just ddn't come in one box.

SS has its disciples like Festool and rightfully so but that will also bring out the "anti-" crowd just as quickly. The anti crowd is made up of luddites, people who hate to be told what to do, those that dislike the politics of the inventor, probably some who are a little jelous of those spending 1,800 to 5K for a TS along with those that just dislike that much love for any project. For me personally I love the SS it was just was not for me it is a fine saw and just marginally overpriced if it did not have a brake, IF SS did not have such tight price control (sounds like Festool) you would see a LOT more SS disciples. Interesting that the companies that have the most fervent followings also have the strict price controls (SS, Fein, Festool et al). Hmmm chicken/egg. Maybe if everyone starts some Fein/Festool/SS hate then you could buy a vacuum for less than $500...

[Richard Link]

I owned the original Sawstop cabinet saw (essentially the ICS) for about 2 years or so and really loved it. Very solid and well made saw. I had some experience with their customer service folks after the saw was delivered damaged by the shipper and they were supremely helpful.

I made some mods to the saw including adding a sliding table (the Jessem Mast-R-slide) and a digital readout to the fence system. The machine was very reliable and pleasant to use both with standard blades, thin kerf blades and dado stacks. Never fired the break in all that time.

Ultimately, I ended up replacing the saw with a 9' sliding tablesaw (a Felder combo machine), which I actually love even more. In many ways, the transition to the slider has been a much more radical change in workflow and I doubt I'd go back to a standard cabinet saw at this point for love or money. On the other hand, for a American-style cabinet saw the Sawstop was top notch. If I'd had the room, I would certainly have kept it around, if only for dadoing, etc. but that wasn't an option. I'm already 10 lbs into a 5 lb sausage casing with the slider as it is....

Rick

[Ed Leach]

Kyle,
My wife talked me into buying a Shopsmith about ten years ago, and although it has worked well for me, I have decided it is time to get new TS and some other fixed tools. I am looking at Sawstop and leaning toward the PCS. Which one do you have, how did you decide which one was right for you, and do you keep the Shopsmith after you bought the SS?

[michael case]

Let me help you make your decision based upon real life experience. I was not very specific in my last post. So let me detail by comparison why I recommend the Sawstop. Lets put the safety feature aside and look at the Sawstop as a saw. Lets compare it head to head with the Powermatic 66. I've owned both the Powermatic 66 and the Industrial Sawstop and so I actually know what I’m talking about (well maybe about this anyway). The Powermatic 66 is often held up as the gold standard. Well then the Sawstop is the platinum standard. I purchased PM 66 back in 2002. The table flatness was on the 66 was not as good as the Sawstop. I went over the 66 with a Lee valley straight edge and its was off by a 1/32" corner to corner! Not only is the Sawstop table far more accurately machined it is also thirty inches wide. The 66 table is attached to the cabinet with three inboard bolts. You adjust it by loosening the bolts and shifting the table as best you can. Tighten it up, and of course it shifts. You get to loosen the bolts and try again and again. All table saws have this defect except the Sawstop. The Sawstop table is held in place by eight (yes 8!) outboard bolts and moves on a centered boss. The table has two set screws that allow you to dial it in to absolute zero. No more banging the table back and forth because the set screws hold the table in place while you tighten up the bolts. The wings on my 66 drooped and had to be laboriously shimmed. Again this is a defect common to many saws. The wings on the Sawstop were true and needed no shimming. The miter slots of the 66 were not truly parallel to each other. This is also a common defect on many saws. It causes any truly tight and accurately made crosscut sled to bind. The miter slots on the Sawstop are dead true to each other. The fence on the 66 moves under pressure on the end (see Fine Woodworking review) The Sawstop fence has been rated the most rigid. Poor quality was evident in the tilt mechanism on my 66. The rack with the gear teeth was very crudely cast varying wildly between 5/8" to 3/4" and was not machined except for the teeth. It had concave milling but it was out of line with the worm by almost 1/4". This meant that instead of the worm getting a full swipe contact with the gears it only caught the edge. All the wear was on one small point of the teeth, thus defeating the whole purpose of the concave machining. There was no fix. The rod that holds the gear runs through an iron block that has no adjustments. The tilt mechanism on the Sawstop is vastly superior to the 66. The rack is much, much, heavier than the 66 and its faithfully cast. Its precisely machined to a full 1 1/8" wide and wraps the larger worm dead center. As a result of the size and precision lavished on it, the tilt mechanism is as smooth as silk. The raising mechanism is unique and works with a power assist gas piston and a massive steel post. It is also very smooth. Most importantly, though I was never satisfied with the run out and crude cuts the 66 produced. Before I sold it I ripped a piece of white oak with a Freud glue line rip blade and saved it. I took the same piece and the same blade and ripped the other side of the piece with a Sawstop industrial. The finish of the cut produced by the Sawstop was far, far smoother than the 66. The 66 has no riving knife. The Sawstop has a beautiful riving knife. Its heavily chromed. Even the cam faces on the handle that locks the riving knife are heavily chromed. The hand cranks are heavily chromed. The 66, along with other saws, access the interior with plastic cowlings (the 66 ‘s cowling is unbelievable flimsy and crude) The Sawstop has a hinged steel cowling with quality latch, as well as a quality steel door on the right also with a quality latch. And of course there is the matter of manuals. The spiral binding, color photos, and logical grammatical English of the Sawstop manual has no peer. And lets not forget about customer service. Sawstop people (real people!) answer their phones starting at 6:00 am PST. This way they can answers calls from the east coast at 9:00 am EST. They have always answered for me by the third ring. Ask anyone about reaching Powermatic customer service! A half an hour on hold is standard. Overall the Sawstop is a superior saw because of its features as a saw. It is the most well and truly made saw I've seen. Oh! the Sawstop also a fantastic safety feature too.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Ed, PM'ed you.

Michael, you forgot to mention that the blade guard/anti kickback pawls works very well, better than most. :)
Other than that, I think you got most of the major points. LOL

[John Coloccia]

No, stop being ridiculous. The only reason to purchase a sawstop is so you can be a reckless table saw operator. I don't need no stinking brake going off every five minutes.

There, I just thought I'd get that out of the way. Great points that no one seems to ever get. It's the best American style table saw money can buy, in my opinion, with or without the brake.

[John Neel]

I purchased the ICS before the PCS was available. As a hobbyist I would probably have purchased the PCS if it was available but I am happy to have the excuse that the PCS was not available as a reason I purchased the ICS. If I were to be purchasing again, I would buy the ICS.

I think Michael Case made the best statements about the Sawstop. I can confirm his statements about SS CS. They have always answered the phone quickly or replied to emails thoroughly. I will likely have to store the saw for 2 years. CS gave me very thorough advice on how to do this.

I can also confirm the ease of adjusting the top. I had almost no prior experience in making such adjustments, but using an alignment tool with a dial indicator I was able to bring the top to within .001" - it was out because I had so do some disassembly to get it through a narrow doorway. It was an easy adjustment. I have had some difficulty adjusting the fence. My dial indicator says it is .003 out. I have to try that again.

Even though the saw is "safe" I have great respect for the blade and try to follow all the rules. My fingers stay as far away from the blade as possible. I use push sticks where I have seen most others not use them.


I have very little experience with other brands. I had a portable DeWalt for 7 years. I made a few cuts on friends saws. I purchased the Sawstop because one of my friends, an engineering graduate with extensive experience in table saw use, cut off three fingers with a table saw. To see the accident up close, to see the changes in life, is to get a different perspective on the safety issue. It only takes one little mistake to have that life changing experience.

I have been fortunate to take a few woodworking classes in the past year. My classmates related some of their experiences with respect to safety. The guy missing part of a thumb now has a SS and wishes he had it before his accident. The guy with part of his index finger missing now has a SS and said the same.

Sawstop and others now say it is the number one seller in the U.S. Every review I have read of the saw(s?) gives it high scores in every category. It is much safer than other saws while being their near equal or better in accuracy, ease of use, and adjustment. Those must be some of the reasons SS is outselling other brands.

I guess the above says I am happy with the purchase and would buy the SS again. Do pay attention to the comments Michael Case wrote so well.

[Darrell Bade]

I decided the ICS was the only choice for me. Of course that was because 2 years ago that was the only choice. I have only looked at the PCS once and looks like a good saw at a decent price. As a weekend woodworker I would would probably be tempted to buy the PCS based on price but the one thing I really like about the ICS over other saws I have used is the bigger table. I am really glad there was only one choice when I bought mine.

[Bill Borchardt]

To answer your original question "Would you buy one again?"
- The answer is Yes!

After having a Craftsman 22124 hybrid saw for 6 years I bought a SawStop PCS a few months back (mainly for safety reasons).
(Note: The Craftsman "zipcode saw" was a great saw for the $$.)

Now that I've had the SawStop for some time I can say it's a better tool (albeit 3X more expensive).
The SawStop has excellent fit and finish, is easy to align and makes smooth accurate cuts.
Dust collection is good too.

I'd recommend the SawStop - Just bring money . . . . .:eek:

Billbo
Smyrna, GA

[guy knight]

i have the ics love it wouldn't trade it for anything ok well maybe a 9 foot slider

[Mike Heidrick]

Same as Guy only I would add a 9' slider and still keep the ICS. Man, I am comfortable using american styled table saws.