Non-gloss Behlens Rock Hard Finish?

[Irvin Cooper]

Hello All.

I am in the process of building a walnut kitchen table. I had planned on using Behlens RockHard finish for the top and then satin poly for the rest.

I did not realize that Behlens apparently only comes in a high-gloss finish. The problem is that my wife really does not like high-gloss finishes.

Does anyone know if there is an equal alternative to Behlens Rock Hard, or if there is a way to minimize the gloss effect of Behlens?

Thanks.

Irv

[Jim Becker]

Rubbing out the excellent Behlens finish to the desired sheen is the way to go...and eliminates the need for you to buy any "poly". Your other option is to just us another high quality non-poly varnish for your table top in the sheen you desire. Waterlox, Pratt & Lambert #38, etc., are good choices if you want to brush or wipe on an oil based varnish to finish your project. And while the RockHard varnish "might" have slightly more "durability", with good care and feeding of your table, I doubt you'd notice the difference.

[Darius Ferlas]

+1 for Waterlox.

Just don't buy more than you can use in a short period of time. This stuff is very hard to store without gelling up and becoming useless. None of the voodoo methods I read about to extend its shelf life after opening the can helped.

[Pete McMahon]

" good care and feeding of the table..."
What do you mean by feeding?

[Jim Becker]

" good care and feeding of the table..."
What do you mean by feeding?

'Just an expression to say "take care of it". One of the "taking care of it" things is not to use harsh cleaners. Yes, they WILL eat up a varnish surface including "poly". I have used poly on exactly one project in all the years since 1998 when I started woodworking and that was our kitchen table. Guess what...it hasn't held up in any way, shape or form. The same cleaners have not touched the Target Coatings water borne products that the whole kitchen is sprayed with and that's two generations back of Target product, too.

[Pete McMahon]

Jim,

I was just curious. You know how that term is used in marketing for various polishes etc. The term that always gets me is " replace the woods natural oils" For one thing most furniture grade woods are not oily and it's awfully hard to "oil or feed" a piece of commercial furniture with a lacquer or CV finish on it. I saw an ad recently for a furniture polish "that improves the tone of my guitar" and "I use it on all my antiques" Pretty silly stuff for a bottle of scented mineral oil, but they're making money on it.

I wonder if those Target coatings are urethane and acrylic bodied.

Next question; what type of harsh cleaners are you speaking of?

[Irvin Cooper]

Thank you all for the feedback on this matter. I am going to go with the Waterlox satin.

Jim...do you have an opinion on paste wax for a table top?

[Jim Becker]

I wonder if those Target coatings are urethane and acrylic bodied.

Water borne products are acrylics by nature. Two Target products have urethane in them...the EM9300 Urethane top coat and the Superclear 9000 Water based polyurethane. The EM6000, EM8000 and EM2000 do not contain urethanes. The product on my kitchen cabinets is the Oxford PSL which is two generations earlier of the EM6000. No urethane. The primary property that polyurethane brings to a finish is abrasion resistance, but it also makes for a softer finish. So it resists polishing by nature and also tends to lack the clarity that non-poly finishes often seem to have.


Next question; what type of harsh cleaners are you speaking of?Believe it or not, a "more green" product line from Method ripped the shreds out of the poly on that table, but didn't affect the Target acrylic finish on the cabinetry in the least. I'll hopefully be refinishing it in the spring...when I have the energy to do so as the table top is 54" in diameter and 2" thick teak...weighs about 250 lbs. Um...that's just the top. :o


Jim...do you have an opinion on paste wax for a table top?

I never wax something that's been clear coated. The only time I use wax is for a BLO and wax finish which I occasionally use for certain kinds of projects.

[Neal Clayton]

+1 for Waterlox.

Just don't buy more than you can use in a short period of time. This stuff is very hard to store without gelling up and becoming useless. None of the voodoo methods I read about to extend its shelf life after opening the can helped.

air in the can is the killer. assuming you start with a gallon, break it up into full (and not mostly, i mean to the rim full) quarts after that, and it'll keep.

[Scott Holmes]

Just remember that even though Waterlox is one of the best phenolic resin varnishes made, it is very slow drying. Don't set it aside and do something else in the same shop or room without protecting it from dust.

[Howard Acheson]

Curious why you want to use one product for the top and another for the rest of the table?

As others have said you have two choices for your tabletop. Use the Behlens Rockhard, let it cure for four weeks and then sand lightly with 400 and then 600 W&D paper. The second choice is to use Waterlox Original Satin. The Waterlox is every bit as hard and even more durable than the Behlen's, and both are harder and more durable than any one part polyurethane varnish.

[Pete McMahon]

Howie,
How is Waterlox more durable than Rockhard?

[Scott Holmes]

Waterlox phenolic resin/tung oil, varnish; Behlen's Rockhard is phenolic resin/linseed oil varnish.

Tung oil's ONLY real claim to fame is that VARNISH made from tung oil, instead of linseed oil or soya oil is more waterproof and more watervapor proof then varnish made with the other oils.

Homer Formby has made a fortune selling his "tung oil" finish; which is an alkyd resin/soya oil wiping varnish. It's not even varnish made from tung oil. MARKETING

[Howard Acheson]

To add to Scott's responce, both Waterlox Original and Behlen Rockhard are made with phenolic resin. Phenolic resin produces a much harder and abrasion resistant film than a alkyd resin/urethane resin or totally urethane resin varnish.

The main attractiveness of urethane resin to a finish manufacturer is that it is less expensive than alkyd and phenolic resin varnishes.

[Scott Holmes]

To add to Howie's response... urethane resins are MUCH CHEAPER than alkyd or phenolic resins and most poly's are made with linseed oil which is the cheapest of the 3 oils used to make varnish...

Any question why they push the poly? PROFIT.

[Pete McMahon]

To add to your reponse on MARKETING:
The company Tried and True markets a varnish made to a 19th century formula because it contains rosin. In varnishes rosin was\is considered an adulturant and creates little more than a cheap coating. Marketing.

While the raw materials change over time commerce doesn't. A good fixed oil varnish made with copal was more expensive than an cheap essential oil varnish with damar.

As much as things change they stay the same.