Woodcraft Groz planes - A Good Deal?

[Bob Elliott]

Are the Groz planes that Woodcraft has on sale any good? THe link is here: woodcraft.com/Tab/003.aspx These planes are about 1/2 the price of Stanley planes, are they any good? Pleasepost experience/advice.

Thanks,

Bob

[Sam Takeuchi]

Groz, Kunz (that green cheap ones, not their premo line), Anant, Stanley (regular production plane line) and other cheap planes aren't good. You'll have to spend a lot of time tuning them before you can actually make them to work like they should and even then, overall quality isn't all that great. If you are looking to spend 20 to 30 bucks, look around to get a vintage Stanley, Record, Miller Falls, Sargeant, or Union. They are around at flea market, online auction, tool dealers and so on. You may have to tune them up, but once they are tuned, they will work nicely.

[Michael Faurot]

Do they work? Yes, if you're up to the challenge and have the time to tune them up.

Will they work as good as a vintage Stanley? Maybe.

If you have the money, skip the Groz and get a Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane.

If you're looking at the Groz planes, because you're curious about whether you want to work with planes and hand tools . . . I started with a Groz No. 5 and spent a lot of time and effort to get it to work. It's okay for carpentry kind of stuff, but not that great for fine woodworking. If you've got the tenacity and time to mess with these things, you may eventually get them to work okay. But there's a strong possibility they'll just frustrate you. If you don't have a lot of money to put toward getting some planes, then go to the Classified forum and see if anyone here has a vintage Stanley (or Millers Falls, Sargent, etc) that they've rebuilt and would sell you.

[Jim Koepke]

Bob,

I am not too familiar with the yard sale and flea market scene around Santa Cruz, but you can probably do a lot better with a used Stanley, Sargent, Miller's Falls or Union plane. There are also many others that were made by these makers that were private branded like Keen Kutter and Winchester.

Check out the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=103805) for information on what to look for (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=116419) and what to do with a plane to make it perform as well as it can.

Scroll down to "#7 Rehabbing old tools" in the first link. Bob Smalser and myself have provided a lot of information for someone who wants to restore old tools.

jim

[Brian Kent]

These are the only effective inexpensive planes that I have found. Lee Valley has them too.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&dept_id=13602

Brian

[Don Dorn]

I belive Christopher Swarz said in answering someone that wanted an inexpensive plane that worked as well as the far more expenisve ones - "I believe you can get those at the same store that sells Unicorns that fart cupcakes"

I've been down this road too and learned a valuable lesson. Save and get the Veritas or LN. No tuning up except for honing the blade and you'll be happy with a high quality plane long after the money is forgotten. I'd even go so far as to recommend the LV bevel up smoother and spring for a 38 degree blade too. Then, with a decent block plane, you'll have a setup that will go most of the way toward everything you need them to.

[Richard Niemiec]

What Sam said above. Don't confuse yourself looking at Groz.

Cheap is cheap.

[James Scheffler]

Are the Groz planes that Woodcraft has on sale any good? THe link is here: woodcraft.com/Tab/003.aspx These planes are about 1/2 the price of Stanley planes, are they any good? Pleasepost experience/advice.

Thanks,

Bob

As someone mentioned above, the modern Stanley Bailey line (not to be confused with the premium "sweet hart" line) isn't very good even though they are twice as much as the bargain basement brands. I bought the No. 3 equivalent "contractor grade" Stanley a few years ago. I got it work ok after a lot of work. However, deficiencies in the machining on the frog and corresponding surfaces on the base would prevent it from ever being a really good plane.

I do like my vintage Stanleys quite a bit.

Jim

[Tri Hoang]

I rather get a good Stanley type 10/11/12 and a Hock blade (if needed) than the WoodRiver, Groz, or new Stanley premium SW. The next step up would be a Veritas/LN. You can make the Groz work...it just take some elbow grease. In addition, you'll probably hate it every time to have to deal with sloppy adjustments. Finally, when you hate it enough to sell it, you'll probably lose 50% of what you paid for.

[Phillip Pattee]

I agree with Brian Kent. The Groz may look appealing because they are currently on sale at Woodcraft, but if you are interested in hand planes and have a budget that fits the Groz price range, I think you would be much happier with the Mujingfang planes from Japan Woodworker http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98%2E107%2E2155&dept_id=13602,

or Lee Valley http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50251&cat=1,41182,41187&ap=1.

[Dave Lehnert]

Ok, I will go against the grain on this one.

I have one and it seems to work well. It is a very usable plane. BUT......I will add I have never used a premium plane. I am sure a premium plane is well worth the extra $$$$ Will not argue that point. But that does not make the less expensive planes unusable. Just maybe a little harder to get where your going.

[glenn bradley]

Do they work? Yes, if you're up to the challenge and have the time to tune them up.

I found this to be true as well. I own one. It'll stay that way I believe.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree about the Groz planes but I was at Woodcraft today and spent some time looking at the WoodRiver bench planes. They seem to be well made copies of the Stanley flat sided Bedrock planes. I'll probably buy one just to see if it works as good as it looks. The good points, just from handling the planes, are that the planes are heavy, have the Bedrock frog mounting, a thick iron, and the tote fit into my hand well. Unless there's some hidden problems I didn't see, I expect it will perform as well and any Stanley Bailey plane, and perhaps as well as a Bedrock plane. According to the owner, who I know and who has always been very honest with me, they're selling a bunch of the WoodRiver planes and people seem satisfied - they aren't getting returns.

The #3 plane that I'm interested in was only $110, a lot cheaper than I could buy a vintage flat sided 603 Bedrock.

Mike

[Incidently, that Woodcraft (Stanton, CA) has been selected as one of very few stores in the US which will be selling Lie Nielsen planes for the upcoming year.]

[Chris S Anderson]

[Incidently, that Woodcraft (Stanton, CA) has been selected as one of very few stores in the US which will be selling Lie Nielsen planes for the upcoming year.]

This whole drama in the woodworking world confuses me. 2 months ago I went to a Woodcraft class and wanted to buy a smoothing plane, but they didn't have LN. The instructor told me about LN and WC having a court battle and how LN was an honorable company and WC pretty much tried to screw LN.

I have 4 LN planes and a DT saw. I don't think I will buy any tool that LN makes from a different company. Now I hear that some WC stores are going to still sell LN? I'm confused. You get a 10 percent discount when taking a class at WC, and LN would be included in this, but they don't sell them at the store in my area. I hate business drama.

[John Coloccia]

I bought a Groz plane and took it back the next day. The thing was an absolute train wreck. You could save a heck of a lot of money by buying an old Stanley from an antique dealer and working on that instead of wasting money on a new Groz that requires ridiculous work to tune up.

[Mike Henderson]

The woodworking world is very mild as far as drama is concerned compared to some businesses. Having worked in one of those businesses, I can say I didn't find it a lot of fun.

Mike

[Steve Peterson]

I purchased a Groz plane a while back, mostly because of the price. I fiddled with it for a while and put it back in the box, although I should have returned it. The blade adjustment bottoms out before the blade can be properly adjusted. Screw holes are tapped at an angle. etc.

I don't even know why Woodcraft would bother selling such junk.

Steve

[Don C Peterson]

I'll second the warnings about Groz planes (and the new Stanley's too)

My first plane purchase was a Groz #4. I worked on that thing for days and could never get it to work. I took it back and bit the bullet on a LN. That was over 5 years ago and I've never looked back...

Last year a friend bought some new Stanley planes and asked me to help him get them tuned up. He had a #4, #5 and a #7 as I recall. I worked with him for an entire day to get those things tuned up and the only one that ever worked worth a darn was the #5, and it was a far cry from working nearly as well as any of my LN's or rehabbed old Stanley's. The frogs on the other two didn't seat properly and could not be made to function at all.

[Josh Bowman]

The Knoxville, TN Woodcraft had a Wood River, tuned by a local plane "expert". He wrote a blow by blow on the tune up. For the most part it tuned up well and didn't take long. They let be plane with it and even though the blade had been through a lot of planeing (clear hard wood), it made good shaveings. I like the old Stanley's and they are fairly cheap if you just watch for them. So it would be hard to spend much on the plane. But I did like it. No take this opinion and $1 and buy your self a cup of coffee.

[James Taglienti]

Vintage Stanley Bailey + Hock iron = cheap plane that works well.

[Kirk Smith]

I have Groz #4. Spent some times to tune it up. It works fine. Since I want to do some experiment with this plane. I both a hock blade and hock cap iron. Put in the Groz #4. I borrowed my friend's LN smoother to compare. I don't think I can tell the difference by looking at the shaves and how smooth both planes did to the wood.
The Groz does not look as nice as the LN, but it may work as well as the LN if you have Groz + hock blade and cap in it.

By no mean I want to say that you should not by the LN, but not all people have the money to buy LN or LV planes. Just remember the most important thing is the sharp blade + flat sole will do the work.

[Don C Peterson]

I have Groz #4. Spent some times to tune it up. It works fine. Since I want to do some experiment with this plane. I both a hock blade and hock cap iron. Put in the Groz #4. I borrowed my friend's LN smoother to compare. I don't think I can tell the difference by looking at the shaves and how smooth both planes did to the wood.
The Groz does not look as nice as the LN, but it may work as well as the LN if you have Groz + hock blade and cap in it.

By no mean I want to say that you should not by the LN, but not all people have the money to buy LN or LV planes. Just remember the most important thing is the sharp blade + flat sole will do the work.

Well, it helps if the frog seats to the body correctly... There's no question that some Groz planes can be made to work. The question is "Do you feel lucky?" You are one of the lucky ones.

[Kirk Smith]

No doubt that I feel that I am a lucky one.
The Groz plane looks really cheap sitting beside the LN smoother. There is no doubt that the LN is made of finest quality. I have to admit that I love the look and feel of the LN plane. But it is too damn expensive, for now I can not afford it. I will get it when I save up enough.
For now the Groz #4 serves me well.

[Eddie Darby]

No doubt that I feel that I am a lucky one.
The Groz plane looks really cheap sitting beside the LN smoother. There is no doubt that the LN is made of finest quality. I have to admit that I love the look and feel of the LN plane. But it is too damn expensive, for now I can not afford it. I will get it when I save up enough.
For now the Groz #4 serves me well.

You can always E-Bay your Groz later when it comes time to up-grade.
Lots of people have gone this route.