Lee Valley Engineer squares

[Richard Andersen]

Lee valley's catalog does not make mention to who makes their Engineer's squares. I was wondering how they compare to the ones (Groz brand??)Rockler and WoodCraft sell.

[Mark McGee]

I got one of the small squares. It was a no name tool made in China or India. I compared it against my good machinist square and it was way out of square (several thou over two inches). They refunded my money and I tossed it in the trash. I was surprised because I have a lot of Lee Valley tools and they are usually excellent.

[Richard Andersen]

I emailed LV customer service about their engineer's squares and who makes them. The response I recieved was: " Unfortunatley we do not provide manufacturer information to anyone in order to protect our suppliers after a considerable investment in sourcing different jproducts from around the world" They further went on to say the only exception is if the manufactuer's name was either on the product or packaging.

I'm a little dissappointed with LV response and to me comes across as being a little "shadey" about the quality of the product. Think I will pass on the Lee Valley squares unless others can attest they are of good quality. This is my first dealing with Lee Valley and everything I have always read or heard indicated Lee Valley and quality products went hand-in-hand...now I wonder.

[Rod Sheridan]

Richard, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of those squares, in fact I did.

Lee Valley gives an accuracy for their product, and if it's out of spec, they'll exchange it or give you your money back.

They are the #1 company in customer service in the wood working field.

I once purchased a wood/brass/steel try square from them, it was about $30 in 1987.

It was out of square, and I hung onto it for years because it looked so nice on the tool wall.

Finally, about 10 years later I took it back, unused, and with no receipt. They couldn't arrive at a refund cost because they no longer carried that product, so they sent the square back to Ottawa.

A couple of weeks later I received a letter and a cheque from Leonard Lee, who stated that the latest I could have purchased it was 1989, and it would have cost X amount, including taxes. Attached was a cheque (not store credit) for X amount.

I've been a very loyal, and very satisfied customer to this day.

Regards, Rod.

[Eddie Darby]

I have Groz and Lee Valley squares. The Lee Valley have all been right on the money, and the Groz have had a couple that I had to return since they were off.

I use the Groz as an inexpensive square for use in tough conditions, such as a tool box, while my Lee Valley squares are stored safely with all my fine measuring tools.

If you ever have a problem with a Lee Valley product, their customer service is the best that you will ever run into, so I think that should be a factor as well as the cost, in deciding what to buy.

[Tom Henderson2]

I have two comments.

First, there is nothing shady about LV.

Most companies that sell rebadged products will keep the original manufacturer a secret. There are exceptions, but generally this will be true.

If the OEM is not a retailer (many offshore manufacturers don't sell retail in North America), you may not recognize the name, anyway.

As others have said, LV will refund your money if you don't like it.

For squares, my suggestion is to buy PEC products (www.productsengineering.com (http://www.productsengineering.com)) which have always provided outstanding accuracy at low cost. Mail order from rutland tool (www.shoprutlandtool.com (http://www.shoprutlandtool.com)) or elsewhere.

My $0.02

-TH

[Richard Andersen]

Richard, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of those squares, in fact I did.

Lee Valley gives an accuracy for their product, and if it's out of spec, they'll exchange it or give you your money back.



Regards, Rod.

One question I have is how do you determine if the engineer's square is truely acurrate to specification? I have nothing/other square to reference the LV squares against

[Chris Padilla]

Richard,

There are lots of ways to check how square a square. Place the short end against a flat board or fence or straightedge...draw a line perpendicular. Now flip the square so the short leg is facing the opposite direction...draw another line...compare the lines. If it looks good to you, you're set. As to making sure it is within spec, that takes high dollar equipment...you'll have to take the manufacturer's word for it...or invest in a very high quality square like a Starrett.

[Pete Bradley]

My set is Groz (made in India).

If someone called me up and said the square I sold was out of spec because they checked it against a flat board, I doubt I'd be very polite.

Pete

[Trace Beard]

Rutland 4PC Steel Square Set on ebay for $23


http://cgi.ebay.com/21751800-4PC-Steel-Square-Set_W0QQitemZ200378220790QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item2ea77900f6#ht_2420wt_1167

[glenn bradley]

Like Mark I have gotten the very rare low-quality tool from Lee Valley once or twice. They have always been great about refunding my money or replacing the tool if it is just a QA issue.

[Dan Friedrichs]

My set is Groz (made in India).

If someone called me up and said the square I sold was out of spec because they checked it against a flat board, I doubt I'd be very polite.

Pete


Well, if it's that bad that the error could be seen using only a flat board...

I have 2 of the LV ones (made by Groz in India). If you buy two, you can check them against each other :)

[Chris Padilla]

My set is Groz (made in India).

If someone called me up and said the square I sold was out of spec because they checked it against a flat board, I doubt I'd be very polite.

Pete

Maybe you didn't understand HOW to check it. Let's use the fence of your table saw...that should be pretty flat, no?

Put the short leg against the fence such that the square is laying on the cast iron top on its side...now draw a line on the cast iron top using the long edge as your guide. Now flip the short leg to the other side and draw another line on the cast iron top. This effecitvely DOUBLES any error so that it is more easily seen. If the two lines look reasonably parallel to you, you're done. If the lines diverge from each other, you can then calculate how much error it has (but divide your final answer by 2).

[Jason Hanko]

If you buy two, you can check them against each other :)
Nope - they might be precise (agree with each other), but that doesnt mean they're accurate (right)

[Dan Friedrichs]

Nope - they might be precise (agree with each other), but that doesnt mean they're accurate (right)

I know, but the chances of two different size squares (presumably made on different lines) being out-of-square by exactly the same amount in the same direction seems pretty low.

[Brian Backner]

If you want to test the accuracy of a square using another square, you actually need a total of three to do the job correctly. Using just two squares can give a false reading as they can both be out the same amount. But by checking three squares in all possible combinations of two will reveal any problems, but will not tell you, necessarily which one is out.

To check an individual square, machinists use a combination of a grade A (inspection grade) granite surface plate and a very high precision gadget called a cylinder square. A cylinder square is basically a length of stress relieved cast iron rod that has been turned on a high precision lathe to a true diameter (i.e., not tapered) and with the ends faced off to a perfect 90 degrees to the turned surface. The thing is then precision ground on all surfaces. These things are typically square to within 0.0002" per foot, or better, depending on the manufacturer. Here is one example that will set you back less than the cost of new Volvo:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=638-7632&PMPXNO=2612430&PARTPG=INLMK3

Using a set of three squares and a precision surface plate, it is also possible to create a set of three "perfect" squares by comparing, then adjusting, combinations of the surfaces via a process called scraping using the principle called the "Symmetrical Distribution of Errors."

Considered something of a "lost art," scraping metal surfaces into perfectly flat or straight configurations is a fascinating, if highly skilled, procedure that has today been replaced by CNC enabled grinders. For those that may be interested, the Bible of the practice is the book Machine Tool Reconditioning by Edward F. Connelly (1955 by Machine Tool Publications, St. Paul, USA). If you do decide to check it out, get the book through inter-library loan as you do not want to even think about purchasing a copy!).

Brian
Taxachusetts