Newb: Finishing oak cabinets

[O. Rob Anderson]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I can't seem to find it using search.

I'm in the process of refinishing my white oak kitchen cabinets. Not sure if I'm doing this right, so thought i'd ask if I'm doing it correctly.

I'm using lacquer thinner, then sanding down with 120 grit sandpaper then applying lacquer thinner again to open the pores. We are looking for a darker finish and decided to go with Minwax Dark Walnut. I know it's not the best stain out there, but I really like the color. I originally tried sanding my cabinets with 220 grit sand paper, but the stain was going on really light on a few doors I tested. By doing it this way, it seems to be giving me a nice even stain application. Before I move on to sanding them this way, I was hoping you experts would chime in to let me know if this is a proper procedure.

Next question. I'd like to spray on a finish. I don't want to use a lacquer. I have a Nova 390 sprayer and was wondering if I could use it to spray on a finish, if so, which spray on finish should i use? A precat varinsh? There is a Shermin Williams down the street from me, so if I can get a spray on finish from them, that is compatible with the Minwax wipe on stain, it would make it easier for me to get a SW product. Also which tip should I use if I decide to spray... an 11 or 12 tip?

If this is not feasable, should I use a brush on polyurethane instead?

Thanks folks!

[Phil Phelps]

Are you stripping the cabinets with lacquer thinner? I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly. 150 grit is usually as fine a grit for oak, anything higher inhibits the stain. However, 150 on veneers can be dangerous. Why don't you visit your SW dealer and go over this project with him. He should carry a stripper and stain, and clear coat, that will work for you.

[O. Rob Anderson]

Thanks for responding Phil. No, I actually stripped them down with my orbital sander using 120, 220 grit sandpaper and then sanded with the grain with a block sander using 220. Initially, I was getting some splotching and the stain was going on light. I was under the impression that oak doesn't splotch. I then ran into to a gentlemen at the SW store, showed him one of my doors and suggested I use lacquer thinner to penetrate the wood to lift the grain then sand using a 120 grit sandpaper and wipe on lacquer thinner again. Seems to have worked. I'm just not sure this is the right way to do this even though it seems to be working :) 2 drawers and a door have come out exactly the way I want it after staining it. Nice and even all around. I applied some poly on the 2 drawers and they came out beautiful, but I'm afraid that it may start to flake later on since it may not adhere totally, since these cabinets have been stained and finished before. I'm looking for something that adheres really good regardless and something I can spray.

So am I still okay using 120 grit sandpaper? I've already sanded all my doors, drawers and facing using 120.

[Phil Phelps]

Rob, if it's workin' who am I to say differently. If you have had success with 120 paper, then continue. Seriously, I would continue and then post the results. Sounds like you are doin' okay. Good luck, Phil

[Howard Acheson]

>>> I was getting some splotching and the stain was going on light.

The reason for this is that you have not properly and completely removed the prior finish. Sanding and then using lacquer thinner is not removing all the finish. The deep pores still contain prior finish which is inhibiting the aborpsion of your new stain.

The proper way to remove an existing finish is to use a chemical stripper containing methylene chloride. This will do the fastest and most complete cleaning.

[O. Rob Anderson]

Thanks Howie! I'm sure glad I found this forum. I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks again folks!


>>> I was getting some splotching and the stain was going on light.

The reason for this is that you have not properly and completely removed the prior finish. Sanding and then using lacquer thinner is not removing all the finish. The deep pores still contain prior finish which is inhibiting the aborpsion of your new stain.

The proper way to remove an existing finish is to use a chemical stripper containing methylene chloride. This will do the fastest and most complete cleaning.

[Jim Becker]

Rob, I'll also add that if you don't have appropriate spray facilities, you do not want to be spraying lacquer, including pre-cat or other highly volatile and dangerous finishes in a home shop environment. Even wiping those cabinets down with lacquer thinner poses risk to your person...be sure you're wearing a NIOSH approved respirator and have very good ventilation. If there is any kind of flame-producing equipment anywhere around your shop, be sure they are turned off.
--

On the sanding, 220 is absolutely too fine even when using a combination pigment/dye stain like the Minwax you've settled on. You're not leaving any "tooth" for the pigments to hang onto. The advice on 150 is spot-on, IMHO. Also, the Minwax stain is an oil-based product. You may want a barrier layer of de-waxed shellac over it if you intend on using the solvent based lacquer. The stain uses oil based varnish as a binder and the solvents in lacquer will attack it. The same advice holds if you choose to use a water borne product or anything containing polyurethane resins...this to insure proper adhesion of your finish.

[Phil Phelps]

Thanks for responding Phil. No, I actually stripped them down with my orbital sander using 120, 220 grit sandpaper and then sanded with the grain with a block sander using 220. Initially, I was getting some splotching and the stain was going on light. I was under the impression that oak doesn't splotch. I then ran into to a gentlemen at the SW store, showed him one of my doors and suggested I use lacquer thinner to penetrate the wood to lift the grain then sand using a 120 grit sandpaper and wipe on lacquer thinner again.
So am I still okay using 120 grit sandpaper? I've already sanded all my doors, drawers and facing using 120.
Rob, I hesitate to counter what the SW salesman told you, but he should have offered you a better stripping agent than simply suggest lacquer thinner. It's been years since I stripped a lacquered finish but there is a product as thin as lacquer thinner and does a great job. It's not a paste, but it cuts through varnish and lacquer with ease. And since it's oak with an open grain, I'd be using a brass bristle brush on the grain. When finished I'd wash it down with denatured alcohol. That's the way I did it 20+ years ago. Ditto Becker and the fumes, be careful. Pilot lights?

[O. Rob Anderson]

Thank you for the advice folks. I went out and purchased some Jasco paint stripper that is formulated on removing any kind of finish... lacquer, varnish, poly etc... As soon as I applied it and rubbed it off I could see througout the grain shiny spots go to the surface. I then sanded it down and the wood grain looks soo much better and cleaner. Actually looks bare. I by no means am a finisher, but this is something I've been wanting to do for sometime now.

Ditto on the fume respirator. I purchased one when i started the project. How long do the cartridges last? I've been using it during my sanding and anytime using the lacquer finish and staining up to this point. I bought me a cartridge kit this morning now that I'm full blown into the project.

Also, I'm really digging the polyurethane finish on the 2 drawers I've done so far. I did notice though, that after sanding with 400 grit the 1st coat and applying the 2nd coat one of the drawers, it seems to have lost it's luster a bit. I'm using MW fast drying poly satin. Should I apply a gloss coat first, then apply the satin poly as the finishing coat? I've reverted to a brush on poly, since I have no experience shooting a finish with a spray gun. Will I get a professional look using the brush on poly?

Oh another thing I noticed. I noticed that the Dark Walnut stain I'm using seems to be spotting the grain. I'm wiping it off as the spots show, but is this something only found using the MW product? These MW products are just not giving me a break :mad:!

[Mike Christle]

Rob, bare wood is exactly what you want. My method is stripper and steelwool/scotchbrite to remove all of the old finish. Once all of the residue is off the wood, wipe it with either lacquer thinner or denatured alcohol. If possible, I'll let what I stripped sit overnight so it can dry out, then sand with at least 120. Any finer grit will close the pores on the oak, giving you a lighter stain color.

As for the stain you're using, make sure to let it sit for at least 8 hrs before you seal and finish it, or better yet, overnight. It's an oil base stain that takes quite a while to dry. I've used quite a bit of MW fast dry poly with excellent results. I reduce it no more than 10% with mineral spirits for better flow (depending on temp), and I use a Purdy ox hair natural bristle brush for the best results. I've used Minwax stain under poly, conversion varnish, and pre-cat with excellent results. No shellac required.

As for your respirator, the cartridges should last for a long time. Probably months in your case. When you can start to smell solvents while you're wearing the mask, it's time for new carbon cartridges. Hope this helps.

[Jim Becker]

The respirator is an absolutely need for personal protection, but the actual environment is also necessary to consider if you're going to use lacquer...proper ventilation of the space, for example...and you can't just use a simple fan safely due to the volatility of the solvents.

BTW, oil-based finishes on drawers could cause long-term odor issues. Drawers are best finished...if they get finished at all...with either a water borne product or shellac. Oil based finishes tend to off-gas "practically forever". Not such an issue with silverware, but there are a lot of things that get stored in kitchens, like food and linens, that will pick up the smell.

[Phil Phelps]

The respirator is an absolutely need for personal protection, but the actual environment is also necessary to consider if you're going to use lacquer...proper ventilation of the space, for example...and you can't just use a simple fan safely due to the volatility of the solvents.

BTW, oil-based finishes on drawers could cause long-term odor issues. Drawers are best finished...if they get finished at all...with either a water borne product or shellac. Oil based finishes tend to off-gas "practically forever". Not such an issue with silverware, but there are a lot of things that get stored in kitchens, like food and linens, that will pick up the smell.
Mmmmm. I'm wondering? I painted a bathroom cabinet inside and out a couple of months ago with Benjamin-Moore's Satin Impervo, and there is no residual oder. Don't get me wrong, alkyd paint has an strong oder, but I have not detected an oder from my kitchen, (five years ago), bathrooms or closets. My drawers are not painted, however. Maybe it's had an improvement in the chemistry from the Moore people? BM alkyd products are all I will use.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, I've only used the acrylic version of the Satin Impervo, so I don't know much about the alkyd type and it's odor characteristics. Perhaps it's formulated differently than oil varnishes? I just don't know.

[Roger Bullock]

I know you will get as many different suggestions on finishes as there are woodworkers so with that said here is my 2 cents worth.
Several years ago I was introduced to a new product (at that time) made for the gym floor market called Varathane. The company has since been bought out by Rust Oleum but still sells it under the Varathane name. Personally I use the water based version but they do offer it in an oil base.
This produces a very durable finish in my book. I have used it on all the furniture that I have built as well as floors and trim. I have used both sprayer and foam brush it apply. When I say durable, an example would be the hot and cold drink test. You can put a cup of hot coffee and a glass of iced tea next to each other on a coffee table and come back the next day, pick them up, knock the water from the iced tea glass off and there is no hot or cold rings on the table.
LOML put a large scratch across the top of another table one day. I lightly sanded out the scratch without getting into the finish and simply applied another top coat in the affected area. I might note that I did not sand out the entire top, just the scratched area. The repair and new finish were as new again. You can readily get it at the box stores.

[Phil Phelps]

Phil, I've only used the acrylic version of the Satin Impervo, so I don't know much about the alkyd type and it's odor characteristics. Perhaps it's formulated differently than oil varnishes? I just don't know.

Jim, I'm not sure they sell it up there. According to my sources, EPA will soon ban alkyd paints in the near future. They will ban water soon.

[Phil Phelps]

[QUOTE=Roger Bullock;1302325]I know you will get as many different suggestions on finishes as there are woodworkers so with that said here is my 2 cents worth.
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]Several years ago I was introduced to a new product (at that time) made for the gym floor market called Varathane.

Rodger, that product has been around for decades. Many furniture builders do not like poly, of any type, to finish furniture. To each his own, however.

[Prashun Patel]

Rob-
Any pigment stain will spot the grain as you're seeing. That's a function of the open grain nature of oak - not your stain. You're right to keep wiping it off until it stops spotting.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I'm not sure they sell it up there. According to my sources, EPA will soon ban alkyd paints in the near future. They will ban water soon.

My BM dealer carries both the alkyd and the acrylic. But yes, it's likely that there will be increased restrictions on oil and solvent based products that have more than minimal amount of VOC going forward.

That said, there is some interesting work being done by some manufacturers. Target has a product now called EM2000, but originally was named Hybrivar. It's an alkyd varnish applied as a water borne. It has more VOC than the rest of their finishes, but gives some of the "look" benefits of an oil based finish while utilizing a water carrier for application. It cures the same way as the Target acrylics in that the water evaporates and the solids and solvents that were in suspension coalesce and cure. Now while this is a clear finish, the implications could be interesting when you think about it.

Relative to the Impervo, you might want to try out the acrylic version when you have the chance; both to see how you like it, but also to prepare for when you, as a pro painter, may be "forced" to switch. I have used it and was quite pleased with it. The 100% acrylic Impervo and SW's Pro Classic seem to flow out nicely. The former can be tinted deeper, however, at least that was the case when I was buying for a project. SW wasn't going beyond mid-tones at that time.