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Jon Lanier
01-01-2010, 11:53 PM
I have a fascination with the etymology of words and phrases. Well, heres a new one I learned.

It was necessary to keep a good supply of cannon balls near the cannon on old war ships. But how to prevent them from rolling about the deck was the problem. The storage method devised was to stack them as a square based pyramid, with one ball on top, resting on four, resting on nine, which rested on sixteen.

Thus, a supply of 30 cannon balls could be stacked in a small area right next to the cannon. There was only one problem -- how to prevent the bottom layer from sliding/rolling from under the others.

The solution was a metal plate with 16 round indentations, called, for reasons unknown, a Monkey. But if this plate were made of iron, the iron balls would quickly rust to it. The solution to the rusting problem was to make them of brass - hence,Brass Monkeys.

Few people realize that brass contract much more and much faster than iron when chilled.

Consequently, when the temperature dropped too far, the brass indentations would shrink so much that the iron cannon balls would come right off the monkey.

Thus, it was quite literally, cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey. And all this time, folks thought that was a vulgar expression.

Mike Henderson
01-02-2010, 12:02 AM
I had never heard that phrase before. Maybe it's a regional thing.

Or maybe that phrase is only used in cold country.

Mike

Paul Ryan
01-02-2010, 12:07 AM
Learn something new everyday. That is interesting. I have heard of a brass monkey but never knew what it was. I have never heard of freezing the balls off of a brass monkey though. Thanks for the useless but interesting information of the day.

Ken Fitzgerald
01-02-2010, 12:12 AM
I had heard that phrase many times....probably while in the Navy but didn't know it's historical origin.

Steve Schlumpf
01-02-2010, 12:36 AM
Jon - very interesting! I've heard the phrase many times - now it makes sense!

Chris S Anderson
01-02-2010, 1:07 AM
I never heard the phrase before, but I am going to use it every day at least once for the next 2 months here in Chicago where it's cold enough to freeze the balls off of a brass monkey.

There's one.

Mike Henderson
01-02-2010, 1:12 AM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_(colloquial_expression)) has a discussion of the phrase. It differs a bit from your etymology.

Another discussion here (http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.asp).

Mike

Mitchell Andrus
01-02-2010, 11:04 AM
Nonsense.

The deck of a ship had little space for the storage of cannon balls. There weren't stored on the deck just on the off chance they might need to be fired. The rolling deck of a ship is no place to stack 20 pound, round balls 4 layers high. Steel-toed shoes were not naval issue.

Brass and the labor to shape it was expensive. This storage system would have been an easy carpenter's apprentice job, not a skilled foundry job.

Racks to hold stacks of cannonballs on land made of various materials have survived in memorial displays, usually next to a Civil War cannon.


From http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq107.htm

It has often been claimed that the "brass monkey" was a holder or storage rack in which cannon balls (or shot) were stacked on a ship. Supposedly when the "monkey" with its stack of cannon ball became cold, the contraction of iron cannon balls led to the balls falling through or off of the "monkey." This explanation appears to be a legend of the sea without historical justification. In actuality, ready service shot was kept on the gun or spar decks in shot racks (also known as shot garlands in the Royal Navy) which consisted of longitudinal wooden planks with holes bored into them, into which round shot (cannon balls) were inserted for ready use by the gun crew. These shot racks or garlands are discussed in: Longridge, C. Nepean. The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. (Annapolis MD: Naval Institute Press, 1981): 64. A top view of shot garlands on the upper deck of a ship-of-the-line is depicted in The Visual Dictionary of Ships and Sailing. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 1991): 17.

The first recorded use of the term "brass monkey" appears to dates to 1857 when it was used in an apparently vulgar context by C.A. Abbey in his book Before the Mast, where on page 108 it says "It would freeze the tail off a brass monkey." [Source: Lighter, J.E. ed. Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. (New York: Random House, 1994): 262.]


A photo of a more classic and workable cannonball delivery system is shown below, this one from the USS Constitution. Other delivery systems included the laying of a channel on the deck upon which balls were rolled to the gunners eliminating the labor-intensive need to carry and then stack the heavy balls.

I used to research old warships' construction techniques and fittings for a seafarer's museum in Canada. "Brass Monkey" is an oldie but goodie and can be seen incorrectly at some museums on the deck of a ship.
.

Jerome Hanby
01-02-2010, 11:58 AM
Snopes calls false on this one. From a different site I saw the exact text from the initial post also calling it false.


Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_%28colloquial_expression%29) has a discussion of the phrase. It differs a bit from your etymology.

Another discussion here (http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/brass.asp).

Mike

Ben West
01-02-2010, 12:31 PM
This is one of those things that sounds plausible at first, but falls apart with closer examination.

Even if the baseline story were true, brass wouldn't expand or contract enough to have any impact on a few square feet of cannon balls. Over 20 feet, brass wouldn't expand or contract more than perhaps .25 inch, at the most.

Good story, though.

Pat Germain
01-02-2010, 1:20 PM
I'm also interested in word origins. I had heard that explanation before as well as the contradictions.

I like the phrase "Balls to the wall". Here again, everyone assumes it's vulgar. But the phrase originated with WWII four-engine bombers. The throttle sticks each had a ball on top. To achieve full power, the pilots would push all four balls to the most forward position, or against the forward wall of the flight deck. I welcome any alternate explanations. But that's the one I'm familiar with.

Curt Harms
01-02-2010, 2:05 PM
I'm also interested in word origins. I had heard that explanation before as well as the contradictions.

I like the phrase "Balls to the wall". Here again, everyone assumes it's vulgar. But the phrase originated with WWII four-engine bombers. The throttle sticks each had a ball on top. To achieve full power, the pilots would push all four balls to the most forward position, or against the forward wall of the flight deck. I welcome any alternate explanations. But that's the one I'm familiar with.

Sounds about right to me. A number of airplanes have weather radar displays forward of the power quadrant. A newer unofficial term is "Radar Power":).

Jim Rimmer
01-02-2010, 8:00 PM
I once had a document with origins of lots of phrases currently in use such as rule of thumb, mind your p's and q's; upper crust; etc. One of my favorites is the word threshold. In old England (or Europe) most folks had dirt floors in their houses. They used the straw from the threshing of crops to spread across the floor for warmth, cleanliness, etc. The placed a board across the bottom of the door opening to keep the straw from being pushed or falling out the door. The board was used to "hold the thresh" thus, threshold.

I make no claims on the accuracy of this tale. :rolleyes:

Mitchell Andrus
01-02-2010, 9:42 PM
"The board was used to "hold the thresh" thus, threshold."

Nope, or at least unlikely.

"Thresh" is at best a transitive verb is not and never has been a proper noun. It's classic usage is as a verb meaning to beat, stamp, trample.

http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/thresh

More junked-up sayings at:
http://www.goodwords.com/sayings/


Problem with the 'net is... it's become a huge circular game of telephone. A bit of worthless fluff goes into it and by the time it's your turn to do some research the fluff has been so widely copied from site to site, it's become the only bit of crap available even if it's completely wrong. Reliable, audited by adults, non-wiki sites are becoming lost in the fog. We've created a misinformation super highway.


Some day our kids will simply have to rely on a paper version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica from 1987 for a clear understanding of what's really what.

.

Jim Rimmer
01-02-2010, 11:02 PM
"The board was used to "hold the thresh" thus, threshold."

Nope, or at least unlikely.
Thus my disclaimer about the accuracy of the explanation. :D

Tim Morton
01-03-2010, 7:17 AM
Here in Vermont we shortened the saying down quite a bit.....:D

Dennis Peacock
01-03-2010, 9:07 AM
Problem with the 'net is... it's become a huge circular game of telephone. A bit of worthless fluff goes into it and by the time it's your turn to do some research the fluff has been so widely copied from site to site, it's become the only bit of crap available even if it's completely wrong. Reliable, audited by adults, non-wiki sites are becoming lost in the fog. We've created a misinformation super highway.


Some day our kids will simply have to rely on a paper version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica from 1987 for a clear understanding of what's really what.

.

So far? IMHO, the above statements are the most true and accurate out of this thread. The net has become much like the old time neighborhoods, start a rumor and by the time it comes back around to you? It is so far away from what was said in the beginning that it doesn't even come close to the original statement. :D

Now, I'm NOT saying anyone here is not telling the truth....but I'm just saying something about "sayings". ;)

Mike Henderson
01-03-2010, 9:51 AM
So far? IMHO, the above statements are the most true and accurate out of this thread. The net has become much like the old time neighborhoods, start a rumor and by the time it comes back around to you? It is so far away from what was said in the beginning that it doesn't even come close to the original statement. :D

Now, I'm NOT saying anyone here is not telling the truth....but I'm just saying something about "sayings". ;)
The good thing about the net is that there are ways to verify the accuracy of some statements. Prior to the net, when someone would tell you a story such as one of the above, you had no easy way to check the accuracy. You didn't have access to people who were experts in that field, and may not have had easy access to books on the subject. So you let the comment go. And since no one challenged it, it became accepted.

Today, it's fairly easy to check out some of these statements. And if you don't check them out, and you "publish" them (tell other people on the web) someone will check them out and publish the facts.

It's a modern version of what our founding ancestors believed it - if you allow the free exchange of ideas, the truth will come out.

What upsets some net users is that people publish things without making the relatively minor effort to check whether the statement is true.

Mike

Carlos Alden
01-03-2010, 10:51 AM
I'm also interested in word origins. I had heard that explanation before as well as the contradictions.

I like the phrase "Balls to the wall". Here again, everyone assumes it's vulgar. But the phrase originated with WWII four-engine bombers. The throttle sticks each had a ball on top. To achieve full power, the pilots would push all four balls to the most forward position, or against the forward wall of the flight deck. I welcome any alternate explanations. But that's the one I'm familiar with.

Well, it may not technically have coined to be "vulgar" but I betcha when those young male pilots uttered those words there was lots of snickering and guffawing. It's not like the metaphor escaped them.

Carlos

Jon Lanier
01-03-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm bummed. I'm going to have to take that out of my Etymology notes. That was a good one too.

Mitchell Andrus
01-03-2010, 1:51 PM
What upsets some net users is that people publish things without making the relatively minor effort to check whether the statement is true.

Mike

I get even more upset when mis-information is spread to further an agenda and to hide any truth you might have been able to find if you had looked.

To offer a non-political metaphor to illustrate:

How do you tell a fifth grader that we landed on the moon when dad says it didn't happen and has 100 websites to prove that it was a hoax? I'll bet for every word on the web describing the moon landings, there are 100 words debunking the quaint notion that we actually did it 6 times.

I'm very afraid of how the web will be used in the next 10-20 years. If 'net providers start restricting website access to further a particular agenda - look out!

A little bit further... Again purposefully non-political:

A Google search can't find moon landing information anymore? Well, I guess we didn't land on the moon after all.

He who controls the information, controls the facts.

Scary.
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