kreg beaded face frame jig

[Virgil Johnson]

Anyone have any experience with this?

Virgil

[keith ouellette]

But out of curiosity I looked at the video. I never even thought of a beaded face frame before and now I want all my face frames to have beads.

was it just me or did it seem like that unit is a great new way to make face frames even if you don't want a bead. I liked the way it made joints for the rails and stiles of the face frame. It looks sturdier and seems like it would make alignment much easier.
I think it would be a good tool just for that purpose.

And I just noticed this you may want to look at
http://www.familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17095

I had to register with them to look at the pictures( off course) and haven't seen them because I have to wait for them to review my app.

[Virgil Johnson]

It seems to me the beading would add so much nice detail without all the work.

virgil

[John A langley]

Virgil - Last summer I was a judge for the Sequoia Award at AWIF in Vegas. One of the entries judged was the Kreg Jigs Beading System. I found it to be very innovative and it would be very useful for somebody who only does an occasional beaded faceframe. The man who demonstrated it to me was well versed in it, of course. I thought there might be a little bit of a learning curve. In our shop we have only done 3 or 4 jobs with beaded faceframes - so if you are wanting to do the beaded faceframe look, the least expensive and involved way is to build your faceframe, use a bead bit and run a bunch of beaded stock, rip it off on the table saw, and apply it to the inside edges of your faceframe.

The one remark about lining up the faceframe - you will spend more time setting up the jig. The most important part of the system was the router bit to cut the notches.

I hope this answers your questions.

[Virgil Johnson]

One thing that troubles me with the Kreg jig is that you would need several notching bits - since the top rail and bottom rails - especially with doors - are often different widths.
Not only the expense but more set up time.

Virgil

[John A langley]

Virgil - Not necessarily true. Your top and bottom rails are usually open on one side. Center rails need to be at least as wide as the bit, however if you make it wider you only need to slide the faceframe stock either way to get the wider width. The biggest problem I saw is, you have a series of faceframes to make, you need to make all of one like cut at one time.

[Alan Bienlein]

But out of curiosity I looked at the video. I never even thought of a beaded face frame before and now I want all my face frames to have beads.

was it just me or did it seem like that unit is a great new way to make face frames even if you don't want a bead. I liked the way it made joints for the rails and stiles of the face frame. It looks sturdier and seems like it would make alignment much easier.
I think it would be a good tool just for that purpose.

And I just noticed this you may want to look at
http://www.familywoodworking.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17095

I had to register with them to look at the pictures( off course) and haven't seen them because I have to wait for them to review my app.

You mean these pictures.
136857136858
I can only allowed upload two pictures so thes are what I picked. It took me about 45 minutes to make the jig from stuff I had lying around the shop. The only bit I had was an old 45 chamfer bit that was dull hence the burnt edges but it worked like a dream for about $500 less.

[John A langley]

Alan - That's very much the way the Kreg Jig works. Really the only thing you would need to buy from them is the notching bit because it does cut on the flat top part of the bit and gives you a nice flat surface to put your rail into. There are two or three ways of doing the beaded faceframe without spending a lot of money.

[Alan Bienlein]

I know and have done them with the bead milled into the parts and with the bead applied seperately. I'm doing my kitchen cabinets and this time I decided to do it with the bead as part of the stile and rails. I came accross Kreg's jig while I was working on it and was interested in it till I saw the price :eek:. Thats when I slapped mine together.

[Virgil Johnson]

I got onto the Familywoodworking site and wow - I can make that.

Just get the bits from Kreg and away I go.

Thanks for saving me $500.

Virgil

[Peter Quinn]

Virgil, A guy I work with described a series of shop made jigs at a place he was at in the past for cutting the notches in the beaded frames with integral bead. He said it was pretty much a couple of templates and a few dedicated PC trim routers. You had to notch the inside corners with a chisel, but he felt it was pretty quick and easy over all. Their jigs had some way of adjusting to the width of the center rail on the FF's so you nailed the exact width in the stiles. Sorry I have no pics except a vague mental picture of what he was describing.

At work we use an applied bead, but it can be a problem with some woods like cherry where the bead ages to a different color than the frame and looks a bit like racing stripes. I too like the machined jack mitered idea but can't see spending the money on the Kreg jig unless a lot of frames per year are involved. By the time you add the jig, the router table, the bits, that adds up quick.

I'd love to see pics of what you come up with.

[Virgil Johnson]

Peter

It might be a little while before the pictures. I am skipping away to (Ocala) Florida for a bit to escape the New York (State) winter.
Back in 3-4 weeks. I have work to do down there.

Virgil

BTW the Laguna slot mortiser worked out great.

[Karl Brogger]

At work we use an applied bead, but it can be a problem with some woods like cherry where the bead ages to a different color than the frame and looks a bit like racing stripes. I too like the machined jack mitered idea but can't see spending the money on the Kreg jig unless a lot of frames per year are involved. By the time you add the jig, the router table, the bits, that adds up quick.

I'd love to see pics of what you come up with.

Just out of curiousity Peter, how do you guys mount doors when using an applied bead? Mount the plate to the partition, or use a plate that screws into the back of the face frame?







I have yet to do a decent sized job with beaded frames. I finally bought a cutter to run rail+stile material through the shaper to cut the bead more consistantly than with a router. For the mitres I cut the "female" end on the tablesaw with a mitre gauge and just use the fence as a stop for openings. Once you know where its cutting its pretty easy and repeatable. If its on an end stile the top & bottom rails I just cut the square part on the table saw as well. For mid rails+stiles, a sharp chisel makes pretty quick work of those. Even if it tears out a bit, thats not so bad as long as the top is clean, (which it will be because its already been cut with the bead), then the pocket screws will pull everything together nicely.

A router set up for cutting the mitres on the "male" ends would probably be slick though. Curently I just cut them on the chop box, its time consuming and easy to screw up when just doing it by eye. Makes me think I should get a 45* cutter for the shaper and use the coping clamp/sled.

[John Lucas]

I have been reviewing the Kreg system for just over amonth. I like it a lot.

http://www.woodshopdemos.com/Kreg_B34.jpg

Here is the story: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/Kreg%20Bead%20JIg%20-%201.htm

[Brian Peters]

I will pass, applying bead is a much better way to go with beaded face frames IMO.

[Jim Becker]

I haven't seen it live or used one, but I only hear good things about it.

[Mike Heidrick]

So I am not telling anyone to modify a router bit but there is a Woodcraft Chamfer bit that occasional goes on sale for $5 - http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2001860/620/45-Chamfer--12-CL--12-SH.aspx

Could watch for that one to go on sale and try this real cheap. $55 For the Kreg router bit seems high and I reall like Kreg stuff.

[Stan Urbas]

After looking at the videos and reading the posts, my question is: You are ONLY talking about beading the cabinet face frames, right? NOT the rails and styles on the door/drawer fronts, right?

The Kreg video shows the cutting and assembly of the face frames. This would not work for door rails & styles. Well, actually, it could work, but who would want the screws to be showing on the backs of the doors? Or would you go to the trouble of plugging them? WAY too much work! My only remedy would be to cut a groove in the receiving part, then to make the part with the butt-cut longer and do a matching cut on it, so that you end up with a T&G glue joint on your door rails & styles. A bit of work, but that would achieve the results.

Now getting back to the face frame. If you do the beads on your FF, are you then abandoning overlay doors? Obviously, if you have an overlay you cover up the beads, so it would have no purpose.

Since I only do overlay cabinets I would have to have some sort of way to incorporate the glue joint in order to make this beading approach feasible. Or am I missing something here (wouldn't be the first time)?

[Dave Mendoza]

Unfortunately, I've only heard good things from folks that received them free from Kreg (one of them writes quite a bit on this wonderful MB). It's becoming difficult to identify who has actually purchased one of these items and who is actually trying to sell for Kreg. I will need to put my hands on this setup at the next woodworking show.

[Jim Solomon]

While everything Kreg makes is well thought out, I just can not justify spending $499 for this tool. I could use that money for more important things for my workshop. IF I had a cabinet shop I can see it being worthwhile.

[Dave Mendoza]

I saw a demo live at the Baltimore woodworking show today. It's a great looking product. I can see paying this price if you are a doing an entire kitchen and want to speed things up. My only issue was the clamp. It didn't have a quick release, so it was a little tough releasing it once it was clamped.

[Loren Blount]

This looks like a nice system for making beaded face frames, but couldn't you use a sled that runs in the miter slot of your router table to hold the rails and stiles as you pass them over the bit to make the notches instead of buying the kreg fence system, or building a dedicated jig, or is there something I'm missing from watching the video.


Loren

[Mike Heidrick]

My only issue was the clamp. It didn't have a quick release, so it was a little tough releasing it once it was clamped.

Did it have the blue boot? The quick release is in there on all there newer clamps.

I hope to see this face frame setup in Feb. in Collinsvile.

[Dave Mendoza]

Did it have the blue boot? The quick release is in there on all there newer clamps.

I hope to see this face frame setup in Feb. in Collinsvile.

Hi Mike - I asked the person doing the demonstrations and he said it didn't have the quick release. He did make some minor errors during his demonstration, so it could be he wasn't completely familiar with the jig. I'll wait until I do a bar in the basement before I put this jig on my wishlist. Once you get in the groove, it seems you can pump out face frames quickly. For now, I'll apply the bead afterwards or do it the Glen Huey way. Might take a little longer, but it leaves a few more dollars in my wallet for some Festool. I walked out of the show with the ETS 150/5 and a show special for a Kreg Klamp table.

[Alan Bienlein]

Here is and update on the one I made.The first pic shows how I clamp and the fence extensions with thw built in stops
137915
Here is the back of the jig with it extended. Including the fence extensions it was about an hour to build
137916
Next post I'll show pics of the frames I've done in pecan.

[Alan Bienlein]

Here are some of the frames Ive done with this.
137917137918

[Alan Bienlein]

And here are the rest of them
137919137920137921
I didn't buy their special bit which would have made it quicker but I am doing it this way from now on.

[Mike Heidrick]

I seriously think Alan's version is SWEET and about $480 cheaper even if you bought everything new!!! Great job Alan!

[Jason Yeager]

I was thinking a sled would work as well, either in the miter slot, or just made to ride on the outside of the router table. Alan's jig is pretty sweet too, I like the ingenuity.

[Peter Quinn]

Just out of curiousity Peter, how do you guys mount doors when using an applied bead? Mount the plate to the partition, or use a plate that screws into the back of the face frame?


Karl, I just read this post and realized I never replied. 99% of our beaded FF cabinets get solid brass full mortised butt hinges that are mortised into the bead, so I have never had to deal with Euro hinge plates at all. We do use them for some frameless cabs, but the bulk of our stuff is very New England traditional.

For side jobs out of my home shop I've used some half crank blum hinge clips that seem to hang off the back of the FF's. My parts rep sent them, I guess they are made for beaded inset FF applications. They accept the blumotion for doors too which I like.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, I just read this post and realized I never replied. 99% of our beaded FF cabinets get solid brass full mortised butt hinges that are mortised into the bead, so I have never had to deal with Euro hinge plates at all. We do use them for some frameless cabs, but the bulk of our stuff is very New England traditional.

For side jobs out of my home shop I've used some half crank blum hinge clips that seem to hang off the back of the FF's. My parts rep sent them, I guess they are made for beaded inset FF applications. They accept the blumotion for doors too which I like.

Wow. Mortising in that many hinges is a lot of work. Reason I asked was the plates that mount on the back side of the face frame need some pretty long screws that go in at an angle. Just wondered if you ever ran into issue with them poking into the bead, or with an applied bead, it popping the bead.

[Alan Bienlein]

On my cabinets I used non mortise hinges and made a jig that drills the holes in the stiles of the face frame and also in the door to accept the hinges

[frank shic]

just bought the set and i am currently building a new mobile router table for it. i will let you guys know how it works out. i'm not as good at cobbling stuff together as our alan is ;) yes, that $500 chunk stung a bit but since i'm currently remodeling the entire master bathroom myself i figure i can "compensate" myself a little lol. btw i found out early on in the demolition process what happens when you violate the FIRST LAW of general plumbing - whooooooooooosh water everywhere before you can even blink an eye... i was having the perfect evening with my wife up until that point :eek:

[Peter Quinn]

Wow. Mortising in that many hinges is a lot of work. Reason I asked was the plates that mount on the back side of the face frame need some pretty long screws that go in at an angle. Just wondered if you ever ran into issue with them poking into the bead, or with an applied bead, it popping the bead.

Well, once a jig is made for the lowers and uppers, and I guess modified for the occasional odd ball cab it goes reasonably quickly, though not nearly as quick as euro hinges. The stuff is supposed to look more like furniture I guess. The hinges are often in the $40-$80/pr range, so cost wise its not for every customer, but thats the market my boss goes for?


Anyway, there is no angle on the screws for the clips I'm using at home. They project straight back into the box, and the screws go pretty straight forward into the FF. The bead gets glued and pinned to the FF with 23 ga, and occasionally a large one with a little spring gets a few quick clamps. Biggest problem I can see is that the screws are not that far from the edge of the FF so if the bead wasn't well glued and a door got opened then hit hard it could pop the bead off. And the clips are rather large. It basically turns a FF cab into a frameless application, might be just as easy to pack the case side out in reality and use standard frameless clips. Of course if you hit an open door hard enough, like say some clumbsy moron walks across the shop floor straight into a door that is open for adjustment and pushes it past its 120 degree opening, it could rip right off anyway. Not that I have done this mind you....:rolleyes:

Just looked it up, the mounting plate I'm using is a bh175H5030. I've been doing some side work in another guys shop and he just uses salice hinges for frameless and packs out the case with a strip behind the ff which may be stronger than these.

[frank shic]

i'm totally planning on using the blum hinges instead of the traditional finial hinges with the blum euro door stops:

[Karl Brogger]

Just looked it up, the mounting plate I'm using is a bh175H5030. I've been doing some side work in another guys shop and he just uses salice hinges for frameless and packs out the case with a strip behind the ff which may be stronger than these.


I've used those in the past, and just didn't feel they mounted all that securely. There are situations where they still make sense though. Like corner cabinets, yes there's hinges/plates available to make that work too, but I can only afford to stock so much hardware. The stuff takes up too much space as is.

I started mounting a Blum euro plate to the partition or end panel of the cabinet. Using various thickness plates to accommodate the different pockets behind the frame. I've been attaching them with the 5mm euro screws and they aren't going anywhere. The downside is you have to go to a full crank 107* hinge, vs the 120* half crank.

I think I'm drilling them at 21.5mm, and with a 1/4" pocket behind the frame I'm using a 6mm mounting plate.


The downside of throwing a strip in the opening to mount the plate to, is that you're going to have to do something with the shelves to accommodate it. (If I'm understanding you correctly) I've done this on plenty of sink bases though, where it isn't an issue.

[Doug Bartos]

Has anyone tried this system for FF beading? This works on your tablesaw and only costs 229. Saw it on the back of Wood Mag.

Doug

[George Bokros]

Has anyone tried this system for FF beading? This works on your tablesaw and only costs 229. Saw it on the back of Wood Mag.

Doug

Requires a min of 1 3/8" saw arbor length. Bummed me out since my arbor is only 1 1/4"

George

[Larry Rasmussen]

I emailed Sommerfeld today asking for some examples of current production saws with this length arbor just out of curiousity. In my survey of the current production saws, for example the Unisaw I have not found one that would accomodate Sommerfelds cutting head. I ordered the DVD and think the system looks viable but it does not appear to fit many saws.
Larry R
Seattle

[George Bokros]

I emailed Sommerfeld today asking for some examples of current production saws with this length arbor just out of curiousity. In my survey of the current production saws, for example the Unisaw I have not found one that would accomodate Sommerfelds cutting head. I ordered the DVD and think the system looks viable but it does not appear to fit many saws.
Larry R
Seattle

Larry keep us posted on what you learn. I am sure many are interested, I know I am.

George

[David Werkheiser]

Karl,
what set back are you using for Blum hinges? My drilling machine is set up for 37mm back from the front edge of box, which is fine for euro boxes but the doors protrude too far forward from the bead on face frames. The last job I did I used 1" thick face frames with 3/4" doors to get around this problem. I agree with you, the 5mm dowel screws in shelf holes are the strongest.
Frank, I have seen those Blum adjusters and plan on using them on next job.
David

[Karl Brogger]

I think the plates are mounted just a shade under 1-1/2" behind the frame. I made the drilling template for it a long time ago.

[Karl Brogger]

I was thinking about this again.

1-1/2" is ~38mm.

So are your beads cut back a 1/4" from the face of the face frame? I do mine as shallow as possible. Just deep enough that there is a full bead, but it won't get hit by the widebelt.

If that's the case, then just move them back a 1/4". I don't use the shelf holes from the linebore, I have a template that I line up with the top/bottom of the door opening and drill the holes with. The only reason I do it this way is that I can consistently drill my hinge cups the same distance from the edge of the door, and I don't have to worry about the shelf holes landing in the wrong spot.

[David Werkheiser]

Karl, that extra mm (37-38mm) would make a difference and would be less costly than using 5/4 for face frames. Thanks
David

[frank shic]

just assembled the kreg beaded face frame jig last night and the sliding action is incredibly smooth! i'm in the process of building the router table top and will post pics when i'm done.