Question on the thread laser cut toys?

[Stanley Waldrup]

I was following the thread on laser cut toys and seen it was moved. Where did it get moved to? I bought 2 sets of patterns in pdf format (downloaded) and found out I was unable to convert them for use as laser patterns becouse of all the grids in them. Ok If I wanted to redraw everything.
Stanley

[Doug Griffith]

Here is Jon's account:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=58585

[Gary Hair]

OK, but why are all of his posts gone?

[Dan Hintz]

Two common reasons this happens:
1) The thread was becoming too commercial
2) The thread was becoming a flame war

[Mark Winlund]

Two common reasons this happens:
1) The thread was becoming too commercial
2) The thread was becoming a flame war

Why cant the moderators delete the content but leave an explanation of the censorship? In this way we could better understand the reasoning involved. Perhaps the people in charge of these policies could issue a "sticky" explaining the policy along with examples of misconduct. Another idea might be to conduct a review, and a vote among the current (actively participating) membership to determine whether the censorship is neccessary or even desired.

Mark

[James Jaragosky]

Why cant the moderators delete the content but leave an explanation of the censorship? In this way we could better understand the reasoning involved. Perhaps the people in charge of these policies could issue a "sticky" explaining the policy along with examples of misconduct. Another idea might be to conduct a review, and a vote among the current (actively participating) membership to determine whether the censorship is neccessary or even desired.

Mark
Food for thought.



The site is not a democracy.
The TOS is clearly states all the ruels and policies.
If we let everyone vote on what actions the mod's make there would be more hard feelings than the way things are currently done.
This site is spider-ed quite often by Google and others, which is a huge selling point for Keith to potential advertising companies. If we let some advertise for free then why would the rest pay.
The mod's do a heck of a job, Lets support them and not publicly second guess them.


Just my opinions
Jim J.

[Scott Shepherd]

Just an educated guess on this one, but it clearly listed the guys website and he posted on it, telling all about his business. That's free advertising. He got sales from that thread, as people have mentioned they bought things from him and thought his products were cool and unique.

That's free advertising, and it's not allowed to the best of my knowledge. It had all his contact information, his website, his phone number, the works. People pay for advertising on this site and it's not fair to allow some people to post their website for free while charging others for it.

That's my educated guess. I have no knowledge of what happened to it.

[Lee DeRaud]

Just an educated guess on this one, but it clearly listed the guys website and he posted on it, telling all about his business. That's free advertising. He got sales from that thread, as people have mentioned they bought things from him and thought his products were cool and unique.

That's free advertising, and it's not allowed to the best of my knowledge. It had all his contact information, his website, his phone number, the works. People pay for advertising on this site and it's not fair to allow some people to post their website for free while charging others for it.I hear what you're saying, but if it's the thread I'm thinking of, (1) it was started by someone else and (2) all the contact info you described was posted by someone else. I got the impression the only reason he posted was to clear up some of the misconceptions that were running rampant in that thread.

It almost sounds like he's being punished because other people posted that they liked his stuff.

[Frank Corker]

I have to agree that the post should have disappeared, unfortunately what appeared to be a legitimate question ended up, in my opinion, to be a great advert.

[Doug Griffith]

So...

We like to hear unbiased opinions from other end users and learn from their experiences.

We like to hear directly from the manufacturers because if anybody knows the nuts and bolts, they do.

If the manufacturer posts information that in any way contributes to a sale then that is bad because other manufacturers can do the same thing and not pay for advertising.

The only way around this conundrum is for us to never mention companies or products by name and not let their representatives on here.

Or they can come on here and bash their own products so nobody wants to purchase them.

I'm glad I'm not an admin.

[Keith Outten]

The thread in question is being discussed privately.

It certainly has merit and there were comments made that the company owner felt he needed to explain his side of the story. Unfortunately the thread became to much of an advertisement and was removed. We are discussing the option of editing some posts and restoring the thread. Personally I wouldn't want to edit some of the comments made by our Members in defense of the company owner but he should be allowed to resolve issues that might be a misunderstanding concerning his products. The question is, does he have the right to use my companies resources for free to advertise and provide tech support for his products?

We deal with this kind of "fine line" issue here almost every day, it is difficult to decide the best course of action and be fair to everyone. We prefer to consider what is best for our Community first then we can debate the merits of any other issues involved on a case by case.

[Lee DeRaud]

The question is, does he have the right to use my companies resources for free to advertise and provide tech support for his products?Advertise? No.

Provide tech support? I certainly hope so: there's ample precedent for it and banning it seems a bit counter-productive.
And if providing such tech support leads to sales, I guess I really don't have a problem with that. YMMV.

[Jon Cantin]

Funny thing is, I joined this site because of the thread, otherwise I wouldn't have ever heard of sawmillcreek nor approached Keith (through e-mail) to join the free giveaway program. I did not start the thread nor post "advertising information" to the best of my knowledge - others posted my contact info etc.

Did I get some sales? I think so... it's hard to tell but this was not due to any sales message on my part, I was just answering questions posed by members on this site and defending myself. Actually Keith, several members were edging me to advertise on this site.

I leave it in your capable hands,
Jon

[Mike Null]

I am the mod who moved the thread to the moderators forum for discussion. I felt that Jon was taking advantage of the situation to promote his business. He also requested design help in trade for products as I recall.

The thread is currently in the moderators forum for discussion and can be restored if the mods or Keith feel that it should be restored. My personal feeling is that it should not.

I did delete Jon's hyperlink and noted the reason why. Also the "help wanted" bit and the reason. I also PM'd Jon with an explanation.

[David Fairfield]

Fair enough. I had the same issue on a another bulletin board where I mentioned my company name and products in reply to a posting of photos of my wares. I was immediately zapped because I wasn't an advertiser.

I understand that, on the other hand, the monthly advertising fee was about 3x my monthly income from that type of product. Probably not a good investment. I think a lot of small time garage/basement businesses fall into that forum dead zone. It would be an administrative impossibility to make a sliding scale to include everyone, so I guess the only answer is, grow the biz till its profitable to invest in an advert.

For the record, no association with the manufacturer in question. I found him by searching laser engraver as a book subject on Amazon. Was surprised to find one.

Dave

[Jon Cantin]

All due respect Mike, this is plain silly. I'm being accused of promoting a business when other members are the ones asking me very valid questions about my business? This is a pissing match than anything else, you are over reacting.

I also can't be allowed to offer other members who are kind to me some advice and develop relationships with them? Please outline WHERE my sale pitch was! There was NONE! Unless you plan on changing your overreaching policy, I don't plan on coming back. I have better things to do with my time then waste it with people who make a fuss about nothing and second guess everything in a negative manner.

It's too bad, because I was starting to enjoy my time here at this forum. Feel free to delete my account, I wish things could have went another way Keith.

Jon

[Mitchell Andrus]

I am the mod who moved the thread to the moderators forum for discussion. I felt that Jon was taking advantage of the situation to promote his business. He also requested design help in trade for products as I recall.

The thread is currently in the moderators forum for discussion and can be restored if the mods or Keith feel that it should be restored. My personal feeling is that it should not.

I did delete Jon's hyperlink and noted the reason why. Also the "help wanted" bit and the reason. I also PM'd Jon with an explanation.


I pay dearly elsewhere for the kind of advertising that could be gotten in a single thread on the 'Creek for free.

Every member here is likely to find some of my products at least interesting if not purchase-worthy and offering products in exchange for design/production assistance would surely fatten my product line and my paycheck. I and 1,000's of other merchants can't do that here for obvious reasons. No problem with that, that's not why I contribute my $50.00 each year. (It's deductible and I get at least that much back in helpful assistance - happy to pull my weight)

I am satisfied that the mods are doing the right thing when overt advertisements, no matter how innocent the placement may have been, are removed.

I do however notice when a Porter Cable router or Saw Stop is touted as being the best solution to a member's call for help and guidance. Non-members selling woodworking products DO get a break that members and even contributors selling similar product don't. Not fair, that's life!!!

It's a very fine line and the solution would be to have the mods investigate EVERY link and product mention for a connection to a member's source of income. Not likely.

.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Feel free to delete my account, I wish things could have went another way Keith.

Jon

I found your post offering free plans in exchange for design assistance to be an advertisement - a help wanted ad. An advertisement for design assistants and design assistance. There's no other way to describe that post.

No hard feelings, we're by nature a resourceful bunch. We'll find you when we need you.

Put your offering of "free plans in exchange for design assistance" on your website.

.

[Chuck Stone]

I also went looking for the "Cancel Account" button when I realized that it
appeared that members can trash vendors (who may not have even heard of
the Creek) yet vendors defending themselves will cost them money.

I understand not allowing vendors to advertise 'on my dime' so to speak,
and also that this is not a democracy. But a sense of 'Fair Play' is universal.

If defending yourself unless you pay is not allowed, it would seem to me
that the only fair option would be that nobody is allowed to mention any
product, unless it is offered by a paying advertiser.

Of course, the forums would get very quiet.

[Mitchell Andrus]

If defending yourself unless you pay is not allowed, it would seem to me....


Many, many vendors (some being members/contributors) have posted in defense of their products or services when a problem is discussed. Often (with email being just this side of beating on a hollow log) a vendor hears about a customer's complaint here first. The mods absolutely allow and encourage posts that include explanations and help for specific complaints/problems as long as a link isn't posted.

One of the reasons this forum exists is so woodworkers can find solutions for problems with merchants.

The forum does not exist so merchants can solicit assistance and/or sales from prospective customers outside of buying advertising space.

.

[Scott Shepherd]

Jon, I also hope you'll stick around. I think we all have a lot to offer each other. You leaving hurts all of us, your self included. I think we have a classic misunderstanding. I understand you came here because your company was mentioned. You saw some negative information that was incorrect and you wanted to set the record straight. My guess is that you just wanted to reply, not become a long time contributor at first glance. You may not have read the terms of service for this site an the policies regarding advertising ( I could be wrong, but I know I didn't read them when I joined either). So you posted, several things were borderline on promoting your site, which is against the terms of service. The thread was moved to a private area for discussion by the moderators.

Keith, the owner, has said he's like to see it stay up because he thought it had value to everyone and they are reviewing it to see how they can be fair to you, as well as fair to others who pay to advertise.

There are many members on this forum that own businesses and sell products, but don't pay to advertise. They post on a daily basis and do so within the terms. I'm sure you can do it, I think we just started off on the wrong foot. I for one, would like to see you stay around.

As mentioned, it's a fine line and one the moderators wrestle with every day, so don't take it personally or against your company when it doesn't go the way you'd like. In the end, it's humans making the decisions and some times mistakes will get made (not saying one was made here, I didn't see the full thread).

I ask that you give Keith time to sort it out and see if you agree with his decision before you ask to have your account deleted.

[Lee DeRaud]

The forum does not exist so merchants can solicit assistance and/or sales from prospective customers outside of buying advertising space.I assume then that any mention of a member actually running a business, having customers, or using a laser to make money will be purged.
Or not.

It would seem that "advertising" is in the eye of the beholder.

[pete hagan]

I like James post...This is not a democracy! haha Just what I tell my employees sometimes..

Seriously.. I hope we find a happy medium with the product provider as discussed in the post, the forum and rules and we little users because open discussion about the industry is exactly what makes this a great forum. I'm sure that anyone out to sell their wares would jump at the opportunity to show their stuff to these creekers and the mods have every right to bump blantant freeloading.

In this case I think Jon's enthusiasm and self-protection simply got in the way of a mod's interest to govern a really good discussion of selling stuff in the laser community and how to price something fairly to make a profit. Mod did his job properly, posters were actively discussing a good topic and Jon (IMO) was eager to work through our issues.

My 2 cents is that I appreciate the time and energy it takes to run this forum and hope that future discussions will abide more closely with site rules avoiding the post bumping.

[Mark Winlund]

I assume then that any mention of a member actually running a business, having customers, or using a laser to make money will be purged.
Or not.

It would seem that "advertising" is in the eye of the beholder.


Agreed. We will be left with the "I just bought a laser; how do I make lots of money with it?" posts. I am reminded of the thread where Xenetech's president posted a number of replies saying how wonderful his product was (in response to technical problems with his software). Isn't this advertising? Should all posts regarding engraving machines and software be banned in the off chance someone might try to plug their product?

One of Jim J.'s points was that "this is not a democracy". Perhaps not, but given enough discontent, you will be left with chicken soup without any chicken in it.

We are left with the spectacle of censors examining every thread and response to it with a magnifying glass for forbidden content, finger hovering over the delete button.

Lighten up, folks!

Mark

[Gary Hair]

I agree with Jon. If this forum can't be used as a tech support venue for manufacturers and vendors then what good is it? If a member can't talk about a vendor, and the vendor have the opportunity to correct misinformation, then what good is it?

I completely understand the idea of not providing free advertising, but that thread was not a sales pitch, it was pretty far from that. There is a ton of information here from the members, but we can't thwart an honest attempt by a manufacturer to clarify information posted about his company.

If he did cross the line and get to "salesy" then he could have been warned and edited his post - removing the entire thread would be ridiculous.

Gary





All due respect Mike, this is plain silly. I'm being accused of promoting a business when other members are the ones asking me very valid questions about my business? This is a pissing match than anything else, you are over reacting.

I also can't be allowed to offer other members who are kind to me some advice and develop relationships with them? Please outline WHERE my sale pitch was! There was NONE! Unless you plan on changing your overreaching policy, I don't plan on coming back. I have better things to do with my time then waste it with people who make a fuss about nothing and second guess everything in a negative manner.

It's too bad, because I was starting to enjoy my time here at this forum. Feel free to delete my account, I wish things could have went another way Keith.

Jon

[Mitchell Andrus]

It would seem that "advertising" is in the eye of the beholder.


In the eye of the moderators, in this case.

I see a post as being advertising when a merchant offers a product or service in exchange for something of value. Clearly the post in question did that.

.

[Rodne Gold]

Mods normally respond to complaints , so folk musta complained !
My take as a moderator is that it was a response to partial misinformation and forum members questions and not an unsolicited sales pitch.
I am one of many however and others might disagree.
In general , moderation here seems to be VERY gentle indeed in most cases
I have very little work to do in this position...

[Mitchell Andrus]

If he did cross the line and get to "salesy" then he could have been warned and edited his post - removing the entire thread would be ridiculous.

Gary

Jon started another thread that didn't address the original thread's issues.

Two separate threads. One started as a "hey look at this" thread, the other crossed the line towards advertising.
.

[Jim Good]

The problem with the thread is that is has both good information/discussion that also went off-topic and included some advertising. Whether is was calculated or not is not the question. Some of the thread needed to be removed but you hate to lose the entire thread. That is what Keith and the others are discussing.

There isn't an easy answer and I respect the attempts of the moderators to find a good resolution.

It's hard to talk about your products without sounding like an advertisement. I've had threads deleted. I understood, especially after Mike explained the reason. No problem at all. I hope Jon can understand, too. I think the longer he stays on this forum, he'll understand the atmosphere of this forum. The folks here are incredibly helpful and it is a family atmosphere with a wide range of knowledge.

As someone stated, it is a resourceful bunch and they will find you if they need something from you. Take advantage of the PM function. You can develop relationships without using public threads. Get email addresses and take it off-line.

The original thread involved a misunderstanding on shipping charges. If it had stayed on topic, there would not have been a problem.

[Gary Hair]

Two separate threads. One started as a "hey look at this" thread, the other crossed the line towards advertising.
.

which is why it makes no sense to remove them both. I never saw the second thread, just the first.

Gary

[Doug Griffith]

you will be left with chicken soup without any chicken in it.

Exactly!!! My favorite line of this thread so far.

Besides the obvious, mentioning products helps search engines drive potential contributors and advertisers to Sawmill Creek. Google "epilog universal trotech" and Sawmill Creek is the first result. Does this mean Sawmill is capitalizing on the manufacturers? There wouldn't even be a laser engraver forum without them.

[Dan Hintz]

Fair enough. I had the same issue on a another bulletin board where I mentioned my company name and products in reply to a posting of photos of my wares. I was immediately zapped because I wasn't an advertiser.

I understand that, on the other hand, the monthly advertising fee was about 3x my monthly income from that type of product. Probably not a good investment. I think a lot of small time garage/basement businesses fall into that forum dead zone.
Yep, I'm in that zone for a number of forums and the same thing has happened to me on numerous occasions... though in my case the "x-factor" was several times higher than 3!

[Kim Vellore]

I have been here on this forum for a while and I have seen the changes over the years, The negative I have noticed is we have become intolerant and quite rude esp. to newbies. I think the moderators need to look in a case by case basis. I have noticed we go with a heavy hand on newbies who may not be familiar with all the subtle sensitivities of this forum. Of course with these constraints useful information will also be missed. Take is easy folks and get the forum back to what it was.

Kim

[John Noell]

[QUOTE=Mike Null;1298669 He also requested design help in trade for products as I recall.[/QUOTE] Is that wrong to do here? Didn't Corel do the very same thing - offering free product for beta testing? (I am VERY sympathetic to the tough job the mods have so this is not a complaint or adverse comment. I'm just curious about where the line tends to be.)

[Tom Bull]

I think the moderators do a great job. I have been edited out, and sure didn't think I would quit being a member. That would be "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."
When I read the original toys postings I immediately saved a link because I felt like it was out of line and would be pulled.

[Keith Outten]

I haven't been able to work on a solution to this issue yet because of the holiday break. My time is being shared between my Admin duties here, shop projects and the effort that Aaron Koehl and I are investing in the new server and network upgrades for The Creek.

Had I been able to resolve this one quickly I doubt there would have been as much discussion or discontent. Unfortunately I am spread a bit thin right now so my work schedule is based on priority and not first come first served. As always my primary concern is what is best for the majority here, the new electrical generator I installed today and the new server we are about to bring online have preference.

In spite of my personal situation I do appreciate your comments on this issue, it is more complex than just this one instance and it deserves a review occasionally.

Thanks,
Keith

[Dan Hintz]

Take whatever time you need, Keith... I doubt this one instance will be the end of us, either.

[David Fairfield]

If mods are balancing fairness to sponsors/advertisers against providing info to board members, I think the type of business is an issue to consider. I don't think there are any commercial providers of laser cut toy blueprints paying for advertising on the creek, so I don't think Jon was really competing with anyone. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dave

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David,

The point is that this website is, in fact, supported by paid advertisers. Without those advertisers, the site would either disappear or go to a paid Contributors only.

As a result, we try to allow every manufacturer to defend unfair claims about their products but we cannot allow them to advertise for free. If we do, then the paid advertisers would be paying for nothing....we would lose advertisers and the website would probably disappear.

We try to be fair.....but we are human.

What type of service is being offered has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they should be allowed to advertise here for free.

Paid advertisers would use the opposite argument...."they advertise and don't have to pay for it....Why should I?".

As Mike stated...this is not a democracy.....the internet is NOT FREE. Someone has to pay the bills......advertisers and contributors pay the bills here. Contributors have enhanced privileges.....paid advertisers can advertise.

We try to allow all manufacturers to provide technical support and to defend their products against unfair claims. It is not black and white as so many people try to oversimplify things. Nothing in life is that simple. It's shades of gray.

[Chuck Stone]

I have noticed we go with a heavy hand on newbies who may not be familiar with all the subtle sensitivities of this forum. Of course with these constraints useful information will also be missed. Take is easy folks and get the forum back to what it was.


Perhaps part of that is that "the newbies" never knew what it was.
They're new. :p

[David Fairfield]

Ken, I understand. Since you're dealing with grey areas, seems something to consider, if the poster is stepping on an advertiser's toes or not.

Dave

[Mike Null]

For what it's worth, I did edit the Jon's posts and deleted the links and the barter propostion. I also sent a PM to Jon advising him of the reasons for the edit. Jon later inserted an email link.

After that he listed his web site without a link which is permitted. But as I read his posts I interpreted them to be for the purpose of advertising his product. I then moved the thread and asked other moderators to provide opinions. (I moved only one thread) The result is mixed and Keith will make a decision. And I will be content with that.

BTW, I sell a product that can be used by most of the engravers on the forum. I don't use the forum to promote my product unless I choose to offer a "free stuff" item. You will not find any reference in my sig to this product.

I have tried to be light handed in my moderation of this forum mainly watching for language, personal attacks, religious and political issues and advertising. This forum membership is considerate and doesn't require much moderation. The biggest problem is people who want to promote their products without paying the toll or following the rules.

[jack Halley]

Keith sent a pm

[Guy Mathews]

For what it's worth, I did edit the Jon's posts and deleted the links and the barter propostion. I also sent a PM to Jon advising him of the reasons for the edit. Jon later inserted an email link.

After that he listed his web site without a link which is permitted. But as I read his posts I interpreted them to be for the purpose of advertising his product. I then moved the thread and asked other moderators to provide opinions. (I moved only one thread) The result is mixed and Keith will make a decision. And I will be content with that.

BTW, I sell a product that can be used by most of the engravers on the forum. I don't use the forum to promote my product unless I choose to offer a "free stuff" item. You will not find any reference in my sig to this product.

I have tried to be light handed in my moderation of this forum mainly watching for language, personal attacks, religious and political issues and advertising. This forum membership is considerate and doesn't require much moderation. The biggest problem is people who want to promote their products without paying the toll or following the rules.

I have been following this for a while and will now throw in my buck-three-eighty.

You hit on a good point within the signatures. My own signature is a continuous billboard for everything from software to laser scanners. For those of you who follow my postings, mainly at the CNC forum, you know that I rarely will come right out and endorse a product but I will offer many solutions for the same situation. You also know that I shoot from the hip and really do not lose any sleep if I hurt your feelings!:D I also disclose in my listings anytime I talk about the Polhemus FastScan that I am on refferal program with that company and recieve payment if one of my contacts buys a laser. I do not recieve compensation from any other companies whose products I use. In spite of that, I will often throw out names like Nextengine, Davids Laser, LDI and HandyScan to name a few when addressing 3D Laser Scanning.

The same goes for CNC machines and Software. I have used a variety and continue to use different software to achieve different results. As for CNC Machines, while I am now partial to my CAMaster, there was a time while getting used to my CAMaster that I still preferred the ShopBot. I cut my teeth on a ShopBot therefore, at the time, I was much more comfortable with it. I also run a 10 spindle CNC carving Machine that puts both the aforementioned into a hobby class when compared side by side as far as I am concerned. It does not mean that the aforementioned are lesser quality, it means that when you spend 250K verses 40K... well, there is a little more machine for the money.

In light of this, I have seen many of the folks on this thread make statements such as, "Vectric wins hands down as far as software goes", and "This machine is better then that machine." What makes it funny, is that a lot of the times, these postings originate from people who only use speciffic software and hardware. When they offer up an opinion, it their experience with these products that they are sharing with us in this and other forums. That is what these forums are for. What people sometimes forget is that these are opinions based on user preference and not experience. Just because someone says it, does not always make it true.

You can not compare an apple to an orange if you have never had an orange. The same is true for software, tools and equipment. To say that you saw it at a show and it seemed more complicated then the software that you use right now may be true, but that is based on opinion and your experiences with the current products you use.

In addition, I have noticed many times that certain opinions that are posted only tell half of the story. One just has to look at some of the work being done at the CNC forum to understand what I mean. Buying a 3D relief model from a company, gererating a tool path, sticking a piece of wood on your CNC machine and hitting the enter button is a far cry from creating a 3D model from scratch or matching an existing piece. So what you have is something that you may have made on your machine, but in reality, you really did not make it, you kind of assisted using pre-existing stuff from other people. However, these models, patterns and artwork, and these techniques are gateways to the next level that so many strive to achieve. Add to that the fact that they give you a sense of accomplishment, almost instant gratification. This is why we need guys like Jon here at The Creek.

I myself suck when it comes to using a wood lathe, I know just enough to be dangerous! Yet, when I posted a project in the Turners thread, and described the non-traditional techniques that I used, I recieved many wonderful comments from the Craftsman that gather there as well as tips and questions from them on my techniques! Techniques? What technique? I got lucky!:D It was because of the comments from the Turners and reading about the products that they recommend that I am inclined to learn more about Turning.

Anyhow, when the thread by Jon first appeared I was actually going to report it to the Moderators because it had in my eyes become advertising. However, I was prejudiced by the fact that Jon was not a Contributor. On the other hand, I can honestly say that had Jon been a Contributor, I probably would have just sent him a PM asking him to edit his post and to familiarize himself with The Creek Rules. In reality, I should have done that from the start. I should have sent Jon a message and said, Hey welcome to The Creek. A quick note for you. Your postings should not contain a hyperlink to your website... yada, yada, yada. It was only after having a thread edited by Keith a long time ago that I even read the rules, and even recently I have violated those rules and been corrected by the Mods. Mistakes will be made, it is a fact of life. The way we correct them and make ammends for them is what defines us as Creekers and not just another forum.

I do hope that for the sake of the Engraving Forum, Jon stays with us and we pull together to help him grow. I also would like to apologize to him personally for not helping him out. Had this been in the CNC forum, I may have been able to help him out as myself, Jim, Joey and a few other CNC gurus have for new members. As a Creeker, it is our responsibilty to help new members and I hope that others who read this feel the same. We are not perfect, but we should aim for it at the very least so our attempts are at least worthy of The creek.

I feel for you Keith. This is one of those twist in the road that you have talked about and there is no easy solution. However, whatever you and the Moderators decide should be honored by all who visit and contribute to The Creek. Afterall, this is your barbecue, the members just bring the side dishes to the table.

With that, I am off to New Hampshire to SPS Spindle for a class on rebuilding spindles tomorrow. On the way, I am going to stop in Massachussets and help a fellow Creeker with his CNC Machine.

Mr. George Brown, if you are reading this, I am on the way! Can't wait to meet you and hopefully we will find the solution to your question!

Guy

[James Stokes]

Perhaps part of that is that "the newbies" never knew what it was.
They're new. :p

One reason people here are less suportive of the newbys is that 95 percent of their questions have already been asked and answered at least 10 times. If the new people would go back and read what has already been posted they would not need to ask the questions they are asking.
I read the forum everyday but very seldom do I post because the questions are the same. I have posted more today already than I have in the last 3 months.