Interest in A Larger Jointer

[Eli Frye]

Fellow woodworkers:
I'am looking to replace my old 6" jointer with a new 8" jointer, possibly a Grizzly. I have a couple questions that should help me make decision on which machine is best for me.
1. Is the parallelgram table adjustment necessary for accurate work? Will a dovetail way unit be the way to go? Basically is the extra cost worth it?

2. What are your thoughts in regards to the " spiral cutterhead" ? Is this feature worth the investment ?

I will appreciate any and all input from those familar with these units.
The type of work I do is getting more complex as the learning curve progresses. Made a coupe Maloof style rockers and other chairs to give some idea of my needs.
Eli

[keith ouellette]

From my brief experience with both types...

If the dove tail way jointer is very well made to high tolerance and set up properly when shipped then it wouldn't matter

but with many people we can't afford the best tools. The para jointer helps eliminate the problems poor fitting dove tail ways create without having to take it apart and shim it.

A parallelogram table won't correct a warped bed or a bed with a bulge in it so it isn't perfect in that respect.

The parallelogram table is a great invention in my opinion for what its worth.

[richard poitras]

Eli welcome to the forum!

I just got a G0490X8" Jointer w/ Spiral Cutter head and really like it. I used to have a jet 6’’ jointer. It was a nice machine, but the new one was defiantly a big step up.What I like is I don’t have to mess with setting blades and having to mess with alignment. I think it is well worth it.

[Myk Rian]

I don't think a parallelogram makes any difference. I get the same results from both.

A spiral or shelix head makes a big difference if you plan on jointing figured wood.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Dovetail vs paralellegram has been discussed a lot recently. Both are just fine, neither is better. Grizz is a good company, and if you have problems with whatever you buy, they will take care of you. Enjoy the bigger jointer. My take on the spiral heads is, skew the board across the cutter and induce shear that way if you really want it. Spiral heads are pretty faddy contraptions right now. A lot of wood was milled just fine with the old tech. Wonder who is going to sell those unique knives 20 years from now...

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, the parallelogram format only shines a lot brighter if you are making particularly deep cuts, such as rabbiting, or frequent in-feed height adjustments. (The former because that type of adjustment keeps the edge of the table equidistant from the cutter head...no growing gap) It's nice to have, but not something to burn money on for general face and edge jointing where you set the cut depth to 1/32" like I do and leave it there "forever".

As to spiral heads, many folks like them, both for surfacing complicated grain/figure and for quieter operation. Don't assume that you get a finish-ready surface from them, however. You still need to finish-plane/scrape/sand (any combination of those operations) to remove machining marks.

Don't rule out going wider than 8", even if it means going with a regular cutter head, too. Being able to face joint wide boards is a wonderful thing...and for figured stock, you can skew the material to get a shearing cut to minimize tear out.

[Kevin Groenke]

Don't rule out going wider than 8", even if it means going with a regular cutter head, too. Being able to face joint wide boards is a wonderful thing...and for figured stock, you can skew the material to get a shearing cut to minimize tear out.

+1 on Jim's comment. If you get an 8" now, you may find yourself wanting a 12" a couple years from now. Needing more than 12" is much less common then needing more than 8". We're quite happy with the G0609 we got a few years back.

-kg

[keith ouellette]

Honestly, the parallelogram format only shines a lot brighter if you are making particularly deep cuts, such as rabbiting, or frequent in-feed height adjustments. (The former because that type of adjustment keeps the edge of the table equidistant from the cutter head...no growing gap) It's nice to have, but not something to burn money on for general face and edge jointing where you set the cut depth to 1/32" like I do and leave it there "forever".

As to spiral heads, many folks like them, both for surfacing complicated grain/figure and for quieter operation. Don't assume that you get a finish-ready surface from them, however. You still need to finish-plane/scrape/sand (any combination of those operations) to remove machining marks.

Don't rule out going wider than 8", even if it means going with a regular cutter head, too. Being able to face joint wide boards is a wonderful thing...and for figured stock, you can skew the material to get a shearing cut to minimize tear out.


My point about setting up the parallelogram jointer wasn't realy about the height adjustment.

I was mainly focusing on what happens if you have a jointer where the tables don't come from the factory in the same plane which was the problem I had with my first jointer.

the fine adjustment of the table if its a little out of wack is the only reason I thought it was a little better.

[glenn bradley]

Either type of bed works fine. I set p-beds as a requirement when I upgraded my jointer as I did not want to deal with shimming again. I also went with the spiral head in the G0490X because I didn't want to fight knives again either. Turns out the tables may have been most of my problem as I helped my dad set the knives on his DT way jointer and it was a snap.

I do get cleaner cuts on figured woods and that is a nice material saver. The spiral head is also quieter but that certainly doesn't mean I don't wear hearing protection so I don't know what that is worth in reality (of course, I live alone so no one complains).

All that said, let me see if I can give a direct answer ;-)

1. Is the parallelogram table adjustment necessary for accurate work?
- No.

Will a dovetail way unit be the way to go?
- Up to you. P-beds have advantages as mentioned by others; they are not required by any means.

Basically is the extra cost worth it?
- I knew I was going to buy p-beds and so wasn't comparing. That feature alone doesn't seem to cost much more; it just seems hard to get identical machines except for that feature.

2. What are your thoughts in regards to the " spiral cutterhead" ?
- Love it.

Is this feature worth the investment?
- I am still on the first of four cutting faces on the inserts. No sign of needing to rotate to the next surface yet. Over the same period of time (actually a bit less time by now) I went through 4 sharpenings, a replacement set of knives and one sharpening on them (the buyer got a new set of knives in the deal. So, to me it was.

BTW, all this is worth just what I charge for it ;-)

[george wilson]

The least expensive 8" Grizzly jointer I bought for the toolmaker's shop before retiring was extremely accurate. It wasn't a p bed,just regular.

[Glen Butler]

This advice comes with the knowledge that I spend all day everyday working in the shop so what is important to me may not be to you.

It should be clear to you now that neither P beds or DT beds are more accurate than the other, and that should not be the reason to buy a P bed. Buying a P bed is a must if working with rough lumber. To get the most out of a board it is nice to be able to adjust the table easily and quickly, It really sucks having your DT jointer set at 1/32" and taking 6 or more passes to edge joint out a crown.

Helical Head vs Straight knife - Helical head will always get my vote. Like Glenn Bradley said it is an investment, which will pay for itself. Consider HSS are considerably softer than carbide. They knick easily, and keeping the knick around means more time on the sander. If you chip a carbide tooth, rotate it and your are good to go. But still you are much less likely to chip the carbide . . . double bonus. I am going to have to disagree with Steve. Spiral heads are not a fad, they are the future. The knives are already skewed so you don't have to remove the fence to skew your boards. They don't tearout as much as straight knives.

The woods I work with rarely come wider than 8". When they do if I can't get it flat enough through the planer, it does not give me heart ache to cut it down and glue it back up. Everything else is glued up anyway. Would I like a 12" jointer? Sure, but not at sacrificing my helical head or parallelogram bed.

[Brian Penning]

Buying a P bed is a must if working with rough lumber.

Isn't that the primary reason for getting a jointer?

[Rick Fisher]

I went from a 6" to a 12" .. No regrets at all..

I disagree that helical head's are a fad.. They have already been around a long time and are taking more and more market share every year..

My Jointer has Tersa knives, my planer has a helical head. The helical head is far superior to the Tersa knives when milling figured woods.. When something is that much better, its going to stick around..

I buy pretty much only rough lumber.. with the exception of maple.. (color) .. A 12" jointer is a godsend.. I face joint 2x10 very often.. Right now, I have some 14" - 18" wide Maple to mill.. so its back to ripping so it will fit on the jointer.. lol..

Many people try to match there jointer up to there planer.. for me, I think a Jointer needs to be matched up to your bandsaw.. What is the point having a bandsaw that can resaw 12" wide oak, if you cant flatten it afterwards ?

[Philip Rodriquez]

I have a 10" jointer and a 15" planer, both with SC. As others have mentioned, the SC lasts way longer (i'd guess 10x or 20x) longer than HSS. Not only do they hold an edge longer... but i've yet to chip one. Heck, you can even edge-joint MDF! Try that 10 times on a set of HSS and see what happens.

My jointer is a Griz and it sits on dovetail ways. 84" long and perfectly flat! I wouldn't buy anything but a SC. No question.

[Neal Clayton]

i've chipped a couple on hard knots, bullets stuck in the board, etc (hit a lead musket ball awhile back), and that's when they pay for themselves. if you chip a straight knife you've got 30 minutes at least ahead of you in setting the height back up after you get the knick out. with the spiral inserts, you pop it out, turn it, lock it down, and go in about 30 seconds.

everything with moving parts has a maintenance schedule. when something makes maintenance that much easier, it's worth it.

[Glen Butler]

Isn't that the primary reason for getting a jointer?

:o Oh I guess so, but that doesn't change the fact that is sucks taking 6 passes to get the edge straight. And even S4S still needs to be run through a jointer if you are gluing up.

[Rod Sheridan]

I owned a General 8" jointer and now own a Hammer A3-31.

Wider is better, for me a jointer that matches the planer width is great as I don't machine glued up assemblies. In addition a wide jointer allows you to skew difficult material to reduce tear out.

If the jointer is well made in the first place and accurately machined (costs money), either system will be as accurate.

In both systems the infeed table is raised or lowered to set the depth of cut, using a handwheel or lever.

The big difference in jointers is accuracy, and cutterhead types, that's where the rubber hits the road.

Better accuracy and quality control cost serious money, as do the newer cutter types.

In HSS there are the standard knives that require setting, the quick change disposable knives such as Felder/MiniMax/Hammer etc, and Tersa quick change disposable knives. (Very similar to Hammer etc).

There are also carbide knives in straight, and a couple of spiral patterns, good for highly figured wood.

Me, I'm happy with the disposable HSS knives, no adjustment, excellent planing.

The bed type is in my opinion, a non consideration.

Regards, Rod.

[Eli Frye]

Thanks for the input and it gives me something to "chew" on. I'am leaning toward the parallelgram with a spiral cutterhead.

Eli

[Greg Wittler]

I ended up spending too much on a band saw this week, so I will have to wait a few months now. I was going to buy the G0490 for a couple reasons. The Go656 is on sale for $834 (inc. shipping) the G0490 is on sale for $850 w/free shipping. The G0490x is $325 more + 139 for shipping and comes w/the non-byrd shelix cutter (don't know if that makes a difference except Made in the U.S.A.). I was going to get the G0490 + the Byrd Shelix (on sale) for $325 and save $139 (less the shipping charge for the Byrd maybe $10 to $15). And for that extra $16 you would be getting the Parallegram Beds and a coulpe extra inches of table. Of course since my new bandsaw had 16" of resaw I should look into a larger jointer.

Greg

Edit: btw they have been listing these on Ebay for $850 inc shipping if you could get them to put another one up you could possibly save 10% through Bing

[lou sansone]

just to make this more interesting, I am showing a dove tail jointer that has tables that can be repositioned to keep the same distance from the cutting circle as do the parallelogram type jointers. These photos are of a Newman 60 16" jointer. I have one of these and it is a fantastic machine. the photos show someone else with one that will be rebuilt and put into service. what you can see is that the beds are removable and adjustable in terms of gap from the cutting head. the other nice thing is that these larger jointers often had the ships wheel that spins very easily and makes adjusting them as easy as the parallelogram type.

most old iron guys will say that the porter 300 or the Newman 60 were hands down the best jointers out there, yes beating out the dumb 4 legged oliver jointers.

I am not suggesting you run out and buy one of these guys, they are hard to find in good shape. but thought some would like to see it

this is a link to my Newman 60

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18645

lou

[Frank Drew]

Buying a P bed is a must if working with rough lumber.

I don't agree with this -- I must have run about a billion feet (slight exaggeration) of rough lumber over my Northfield over the course of 25 years -- but what's your reasoning here?


...most old iron guys will say that the porter 300 or the Newman 60 were hands down the best jointers out there, yes beating out the dumb 4 legged oliver jointers. Funny.


A 12" jointer is a godsend. Right now, I have some 14" - 18" wide Maple to mill.. so its back to ripping so it will fit on the jointer.. lol.. Don't rip, flip; with a 12" jointer I'd never rip to fit anything narrower than 23+ inches. Slightly awkward when you get to those widths, yeah, but absolutely doable, and with good results.

[Peter Quinn]

Wow Lou, that is a big ole jointer!

I've used both dovetail and parallelogram jointers and prefer the latter. I've had to make adjustments to the tables on both types and neither is much fun, but the parallelogram beds are a bit easier to correct for coplaner should that need arise over the long haul. The fact is this may not ever become necessary in most cases. I also like the nearly constant gap between tables and cutter head on the parallelogram machines, but this is not so much an issue for basic jointing with light cuts. Its more an issue for rabbiting, and few seem to do that with a jointer, so it may also be moot.

The spiral head issue might be more important. I don't know anybody that enjoys changing and adjusting jointer knives with traditional straight heads. Over the long haul the added cost is probably nill considering the cost of buying several sets of straight knives and keeping them sharp and adjusted. And the spiral heads are much quieter. That alone might be worth the price IMO. I'm planing to add a byrd head to my jointer this year. I have some BE maple I'd like to process that my straight knife jointer wants to chew up. Based on my experience at work with a spiral head planer I'm sold on the spiral concept for figured wood. Its a night and day difference.

[robert morrison]

A little over a year ago, I found my 6" jointer to small. I was outbid on a couple of dj20's and a porter on ebay before looking at new equipment. I found a shop fox dealer who had 5 (paint imperfect) 12" jointers for sale at $1250. You will never regret a longer wider table. I use a drum sander for figured wood, the cost on a used 16-32 would probably be less than an insert head for a planer.

[Glen Butler]

I don't agree with this -- I must have run about a billion feet (slight exaggeration) of rough lumber over my Northfield over the course of 25 years -- but what's your reasoning here?



I stated my reasoning above but I will restate. It comes to a time issue. We all know when working with rough lumber sometimes you need to take off a 1/4" before you get a clean edge. Many people as well as myself typically set the jointer at 1/32". With a dovetail bed, they take longer to adjust. So do you adjust it, or take 8 passes. Either way it takes time. But with a parallelogram bed, it is a quick unlock, move, relock.

[Rick Fisher]

My Jointer is Parallel.. I really like it .. I had a dovetail, it was simple to adjust as well.. It had the handle that you lower, rather than a wheel to turn..

Personally, I don't care if a Jointer is parallel or dovetail.. I like it to be super easy to adjust...

I adjust the infeed on mine all the time.. It will remove up to 3/16" of an inch at maximum .. I often remove 1/8" per pass on really warped pieces, I have removed 5mm or 3/16" on occasion..

[Frank Drew]

I stated my reasoning above but I will restate. It comes to a time issue. With a dovetail bed, they take longer to adjust. So do you adjust it, or take 8 passes. Either way it takes time. But with a parallelogram bed, it is a quick unlock, move, relock.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but to take a deeper cut with my machine, I'd do just as you do -- unlock the infeed table, move the adjusting wheel a bit to lower it, and relock. How's that time consuming (maybe 5 seconds)?

[Glen Butler]

I am all about efficiency. I don't like waiting for a tool to do it's job, and I don't like taking any longer than is necessary to perform a task. I bought a parallelogram bed because it adjusted faster than my previous dovetail bed. The locking mechanism was in a better location and it saves a few seconds. Yeah just seconds, but they add up.

Maybe you just have a nicer dove-tail jointer than I did. So I will change my previous argument to, "Get a parallelogram bed or a dovetail bed that adjusts just as easy, if you are going to work with rough lumber."

[jack darcy]

I have a grizzly G0490 with parallelogram beds. I don't have a spiral head but it comes with a four knife head instead of a usual three knife head. I have only tested it but the cut was glassy smooth. I would only get a spiral head if you joint exotic figured woods or to avoid knife setting.
I also would hesitate to buy a grizzly at least for the next couple months. They seem to be having some customer service problems lately. You can read my post about my experience with them.
good luck

[Matt Day]

I have an 8" jointer with regular knives, but if I was going to upgrade anything right now it would probably be a spiral cutting head on a new planer. You plane after you joint don't you? So I'd rather have a nice finish on my last step of milling rather than the first.

[Paul Johnstone]

I think if you are buying new, the cost increase for parrallelgram beds is so relativeliy small, that it's worth doing.